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Pace Runs in Marathon Training (Read 660 times)


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    When I look at many of the Intermediate marathon training plans that run up to 55 mpw often they only have 1 or 2 10 mile pace runs. E.g. Dick Beardsley Plan or Hal Higdon. Is that enough pace runs? I have ran at least one 10 mile pace run the last two months+, would you have recommended otherwise?

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      Is that enough pace runs?
      Define: enough? Seriously, based on my own research, I think the reason marathon paces (MP) runs don't figure more prominently in the training schedules is that they fall into the "no man's zone" of training efforts. MP runs are fast enough to count as a hard workout, but they're slower than a true lactic threshold (LT) run (and significantly slower than a VO2 run). While you could say that a MP run stimulates the LT systems, it doesn't do so as efficiently as a workout at closer to HM pace. So if you can get the same physiological benefit from doing a 5 mile tempo run versus a 10 mile MP run, why do the longer (more time-consuming) run? The time "saved" by doing a LT run instead of a MP run can then be spent on the LR, for example. There's only so many days available in a schedule for hard workouts, and only so many hours the average runner can devote, so I suspect that the authors try to optimize as best as they can. That being said, I personally think that MP runs are a great workout and a great confidence builder. Learning what it takes from an effort standpoint to run at target pace is a lesson you can't learn until you do it. That's why I don't think you'll see MP removed entirely from a well-crafted plan. Also, if your base is big enough, a 10 mile MP run is not that much more stressful than an equivalent run at easy pace. Off an 80 mpw base, I can do shorter MP workouts (6-9 miles) without the need for recovery; however, I could not do that off a lower base (say less than 60 mpw or so) without rest or recovery. Also, some of the plans have "hidden" MP workouts: If you read Pfitzinger's book, or if you follow McMillan's pacing advice, you'll see them both recommend "fast finish" long runs, i.e., long runs where you run the last five miles or so at or close to MP pace. Among other things, it allows you to simulate running that pace while fatigued. Bottom line, if you find that MP runs work well for you, then you are free to incorporate more of them into your training plan ... but do so smartly. You can't just add a hard workout to a schedule; you need to also plan for the recovery so that you can still do all the other hard workouts that make your training effective.

      How To Run a Marathon: Step 1 - start running. There is no Step 2.


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        I don't know about 'enough' as i have neither expertise nor tons of experience. Just as a data point, though, our track club's marathon training group usually alternates long runs with shorter (10-12 mile) runs of which 7-9 miles are run at marathon pace. As the target race gets closer, a few of the longest long runs are also done with the last 10 or so miles at marathon pace.
          Now is not the time to 2nd guess your traning. And yeah my first question was what do you mean by "enough"? I guess 2 MP runs is probably appropriate for an intermediate plan. I've only done three runs in this cycle that I considered "MP" runs but they were all longer--18 miles with 8 @ MP was the shortest one. I also did 19.6 with 3 x 3 miles @ MP and a 30k road race. These are huge workouts and you don't want to do them all the time.

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            Berner, If you have an 80 mpw base, then you're probably not at the intermediate level, but I get your point. Your explaination that the lower mileage run at a harder effort is probably equal to a longer pace run is good. In training for this marathon I often had tired legs on some days, but warmed up nicely after 3-4 miles. My last mile was usually my fastest. When you have legs like this it is hard to run a 5 mile speed work session. The progressive 10 mile run starting a 9:40 pace ending at a 8:30 pace felt more natural, but maybe I was light on speed work this time. I agree that the fast finish LRS are good. I know Hal Higdon recommend every third, I did some of that but had some issues the last two LRs, so hopefully the extra pace runs will make up for that. mikeymike, Thanks for the reminder. My goal is very reasonable so I'm certainly not freaking out that I didn't run enough but am just analyzing for next time.

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              The progressive 10 mile run starting a 9:40 pace ending at a 8:30 pace felt more natural, but maybe I was light on speed work this time.
              An excellent addendum re progression runs. Progression runs would, I think, be a lot less stressful and require less recovery. I've never used progression runs in my training, so the thought hadn't occurred to me. I tend to think of MP runs as long, sustained workouts at pace. I shouldn't have assumed we were talking about the same thing, sorry. Smile
              I also did 19.6 with 3 x 3 miles @ MP and a 30k road race.
              To bad it wasn't 20. Wink Serious questions: why 3x3 and not 9? what did you do between sets?

              How To Run a Marathon: Step 1 - start running. There is no Step 2.

                Serious questions: why 3x3 and not 9? what did you do between sets?
                A combination of things. I knew I'd have plenty of time two weeks hence to find that good marathon rhythm and hammer away for a couple of hours, since I had a 30k race planned. I also think it's difficult and good training to change paces later in longer runs like that. And I did it the way I do most interval workouts in that the first one was a tad slower than target, the middle one right around the target, and the last one a tad faster than the target (as it turned out significantly faster.) The net/net was I averaged a little faster than goal MP for the 9 miles. In between I ran easy pace (not a jog) for 3 minutes. The hardest part was doing 6.5 miles of "easy" running at the end. It was also pretty hot that day. I was a salt stick by the end.

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                  An excellent addendum re progression runs. Progression runs would, I think, be a lot less stressful and require less recovery. I've never used progression runs in my training, so the thought hadn't occurred to me. I tend to think of MP runs as long, sustained workouts at pace. I shouldn't have assumed we were talking about the same thing, sorry. Smile
                  Well actually I did both. My marathon pace runs sometimes required a warm-up then I stayed close to 9:00-9:10 pace, this might be on a Tuesday. On Thursday I would have tired legs and move progressively up, I logged these as moderate runs. Both 10 mile runs seemed to average close to my pace goal. (I know wed 15 mile run would be better but doesn't fit with my real life.) My goal was just to run with 4 hour group and beat my last time of 4:06. Making it to the starting line was far more important to me than running the fastest marathon. Having run my last at 3:58, I'm not too concerened. Although I'm going to run a 3:55 pace (9min avg) with some cushion for the hills, we'll see what happens. I have a theory that if I had a stronger base before starting the training program I could have a faster time goal and thus run the pace runs at a faster pace. At that pace my body would not be able handle the number of pace runs I ran for this marathon. In that case I'd be better off just following the schedule.

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