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My fastest easy run ever! (Read 1465 times)

    I went back and looked at my Tempo run that I ran 9:00 pace on.  My heart rate never got higher than 178 the entire run and for the most part just rocked along in the upper 160's and low 170's.

     

    At the 19:46 mark in my last race, I was at 2.21 miles and my heart rate was already at 180.  At the 19:47 mark on my Tempo run, I was at 2.22 miles and my heart rate was at 165.

     

    I got to the 6.00 mile mark on my race in 54:50 seconds and my heart rate was at 182.  I got to the 6.00 mile mark on my Tempo run in 54:23 and my heart rate was at 168.

     

    I started walking after mile 6 on my race and put in negative splits after mile 6 on my Tempo run so the comparisons end there.

     

    My race was a mess, I don't think I should be using it to set my pace on all my training runs because I had a bad day.

     

    Plug in some of the finishing times from Boston yesterday in the calculator and see if those guys are running their easy runs too fast.

    Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

      Interesting reading over there in the Low Heart Rate training forum.

       

      According to them I'm still running too fast.  My MAF would be 142 and I'm trying to keep my avg at 149 which is my 70% HR number.

       

      I'm also messing up by doing some type of speedwork once a week, they say I should completely stay away from speedwork.

       

      Too late to change things up now, but I might look into it a little more.  I for sure enjoy running more at the easy pace than when I was running every run about as hard as I could go when I was just starting out.

       

      Whether I'm running at 149 or 142 heart rate I think the key is building a good aerobic base and pretty much everyone agrees on that.

       

      Continuous, aerobic running lasting 30 to 60 minutes (or longer) should be performed at about 70- 75% max HR  or 60-65% HRR. These runs target cellular changes within the running muscles, such as increases in the number and size of mitochondria and capillaries. This is also called base building.

       

      As Tchuck pointed out, 149 is not 70% maxHR unless your Max HR is 212. You seem to like the Karvonen Method of HRR and that's okay as long as you use the correct Hr percentages that correspond to the method you've chosen. Either way a 149 for the parameters you've listed is still high for what most HR training methods would consider a base building aerobic workout.

       

      The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

       

      2013 Goals:

      5k = sub 21:00

      HM = sub 100 minutes

      Run = 3650 / 2 miles

      Bike = 3500 miles

      Swim = 150 miles

      Race 1st HIM

        I guess there are about a million different heart rate guidelines.  That's the first I've seen with those %'s used to define aerobic.  Do you have any references to those %'s?

         

        I'm following the calculations and target zones that I read in several different articles.

         

        This is the one I see used most commonly:

         

        Zone 1 - Low Intensity zone: 50% - 60% of maxZone 2 - Weight Control zone: 60% - 70% of maxZone 3 - Aerobic zone: 70% - 80% of maxZone 4 - Anaerobic zone: 80% - 90% of maxZone 5 - Maximal zone: 90% - 100% of max

         

        I've been targeting my easy and long runs right at the 70% mark which is right between the weight control (fat burn) and aerobic zones.  They calculate out their max based on Kervorkian or whoever I guess as well because they take the % times your available heart rate instead of just the gross max heart rate.

        Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

        Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

          Training zones based on heart rates

           
          Zone Why you should do it Frequency Heart rate
          % of reserve
          Heart rate
          beats per minute
          Recovery runs Gives you time to recover from harder workouts. Use recovery runs the day after hard workouts. < 70% < 150
          Long, slow runs. Builds endurance, and develop the strength of your muscles, bones and joints. Helps develop the metabolic system to enable you to burn more fat. Burn more calories, and so reduce weight. At least one long, slow run a week. 80-90% of your training mileage should be at recovery run pace or long slow run pace. 67% – 77% 146 – 159
          Lactate (or anaerobic)
          threshold pace
          Increases the ability of the running muscles to use available oxygen to convert carbohydrate and fat fuel into output. No more than once a week. No more than 10 to 15 percent of total training mileage. About 3-8 miles a week. Beginner:
          77% – 83%

           

          159 – 166
          Experienced:
          82% – 88%

           

          165 – 173
          VO2 max pace Improves the body’s ability to transport blood and oxygen. Improves running economy. No more than once a week. No more than 4 to 8 percent of total training mileage. 95% -98% 182 – 185

           

          Still haven't found anything recommending 60-65% HRR for an easy run.  Finding lots of stuff that show that my 149 target is right right on though.

          Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

          Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27

            I guess we don't need to beat a dead horse here but either you are training based on your max HR or not. It is fine to use the Karvonen method or % of HR reserve and just monitor from there with your formulas, but when you say you are training at certain % of max HR you don't use your resting HR. Simply, if you max HR is 188, 149 is working at around 78-79% of your max HR. It is black and white there is no variance as Burnt Toast also mentioned. It is what it is. Maybe your max is indeed higher than 188????

             

            I have worked with countless runners and athletes over the years and used the Karvonen technique in beginners or until a base was built or even the 220-age to start with, but when I was  ready to crank them up to find their max HR, then this is what I worked off of.  Here are recommendations I give based on max HR if interested in being picky about following certain percentage. It is a tool. BUTfor beginners, it is hard to work at these percentages. Even the slowest jog gets people into the 80s and 90% area. This is why walk/jog with very gradual build up is good for a beginner. It also keep them healthier and injury free.

             

            Very comfortable/easy/recovery  60-70% of max  - run as slow as you need to. Think at least 2 min 30 sec slower/mile  than 5K pace or

                  slower if necessary.

            Comfortable/long run pace 70-78% of max - feel good, not hard, not really easy. Conversation pace. Think 2 min/ mile slower than 5K pace

            Steady/moderate 78--84%  Kind of a no man's land pace. Only recommend it on longer runs and then this becomes a quality work out. Think

                 90 sec slower than 5K pace

            Slow Tempo/Marathon pace 84-88%  -  nice pace for tempos more than 4-5 miles.  Depends on fitness level as to length. I have done slow,

                 medium and fast paced tempos depending on length of run and fitness level. Similar physiological training effects. Think 60 sec slower than

                 5K pace

            Fast tempo/Threshold  88-92%   20-30 minutes is enough continuous at this pace or do this pace in reps like 3-6 X1 mile depending on

                 fitness level. I recommend this over the continuous running (unless a progression tempo) as many will turn that into a race pace defeating

                 the purpose/goal of a threshold run. Think 30 sec slower than 5K pace

            Critical Velocity, Max V02 reps, Power are above that  at 10K - 3K paced reps. I love CV pace about 10-15 sec slower than 10K pace

                   depending on level. Gives the most bang for the buck for improving  threshold and max V02 without tearing you up. 800m - 1K reps at 

                   around 10K effort depending on fitness level.  Max V02 reps are limited to more advanced runners and/or in peaking phase.

             

            There is continued variance in HR depending on level of fitness, recovery from last work out, heat, wind, stress etc. You feel different every work out which is why effort is the most important thing to monitor/feel. The goal is to know what each pace feels like. I am a numbers person and like to monitor all this stuff but many don't and you don't need to but it is nice to be in tune with your paces and have an idea where your HRs are at different paces or in race. It is nice to use HR and various paces to monitor progress like you have been doing.

            Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

              This thread should be titled "My most complicated easy run ever!"

                This thread should be titled "My most complicated easy run ever!"

                 

                Haha, no kidding!

                 

                Way to technical for me, I feel like training by how I feel works pretty well for me. 

                They say golf is like life, but don't believe them. Golf is more complicated than that. "If I am still standing at the end of the race, hit me with a Board and knock me down, because that means I didn't run hard enough" If a lot of people gripped a knife and fork the way they do a golf club, they'd starve to death. "Don't fear moving slowly forward...fear standing still."

                  Haha, no kidding!

                   

                  Way to technical for me, I feel like training by how I feel works pretty well for me. 

                   

                  The deal is that if your going to subscribe to a particular method of training, in this case HR training and in your case perceived effort, you should at least follow it correctly and not skew things around just to stroke your ego. Thats basicalyy what the op is doing when he is mixing methods so he can justify running a certain poace at a certain HR. Remeber what forum this is in........"Look What I Can Do" then "My fastest easy run ever"

                   

                  The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                   

                  2013 Goals:

                  5k = sub 21:00

                  HM = sub 100 minutes

                  Run = 3650 / 2 miles

                  Bike = 3500 miles

                  Swim = 150 miles

                  Race 1st HIM

                    The deal is that if your going to subscribe to a particular method of training, in this case HR training and in your case perceived effort, you should at least follow it correctly and not skew things around just to stroke your ego. Thats basicalyy what the op is doing when he is mixing methods so he can justify running a certain poace at a certain HR. Remeber what forum this is in........"Look What I Can Do" then "My fastest easy run ever"

                     

                     

                    What a load of BS.  Talk about stroking you ego, spouting off what you feel a good heart rate zone is without a stich of support and accusing me of skewing things around to stroke my ego.

                     

                    ALL of my information is coming sources that ALL give the same information on how to calculate your max heart rate and are all pretty close on the heart rate zones you should train at.  (some go up to 75% or 80% of HRR for aerobic or easy runs)

                     

                    http://www.marathonguide.com/training/articles/HeartMonitorTraining.cfm

                     

                    http://www.runningforfitness.org/calc/heart-rate-calculators/hrzone

                     

                    http://www.runnersweb.com/running/hr_calculator_new.html

                     

                    http://www.active.com/fitness/Articles/Calculate_your_training_heart_rate_zones.htm

                     

                    My max heart rate is 189.  My resting heart rate is 60.  Plug that into those calculators and it says that 149 is 70% of my max HR which is calculated as HRR according to you guys.

                     

                    They all indicate that 70% of what they simply call % of Max HR which if you use thier calculations is HRR to you guys and say that is the aerobic zone.  An easy run.  Since I got my heart rate monitor in December I've been shooting for that same 149 avg HR on all my easy runs. 

                     

                    Then you guys come in here crapping all over my post with your opinions on zones and "very comfortable" vs. easy vs. "comfortable", etc., but don't link to a single source supporting your numbers.

                     

                    I've been calculating my heart rate the exact same way the entire time.  Just like the calculators above calculate it.  I'm following their training zones based on that heart rate.  I'm shooting for the same target heart rate on all my easy runs.

                     

                    I'm running faster at the same heart rate because I'm acutally getting in shape! 

                     

                    SHOCK!  When you run a lot at an easy pace you build an aerobic base and get faster with the same effort.  A heart rate monitor is one way to compare that objectively.

                     

                    Silly me, I was proud of the fact that instead of crawling along at a snails pace at that heart rate, I'm now smoking along almost as fast as a turtle. 

                    Age: 45 Weight: 208 Height: 6'2" (Goal weight 195)

                    Current PR's:  Mara 3:48:09; HM 1:43:26; 10K 44:51; 5K 21:27


                    HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                      Runners are funny.

                      It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

                        npaden,

                         

                        I think it's awesome that you are getting in shape, and I agree that's why your easy pace is coming down. But you also probably just had a good day. The day of your race, you had a bad day. Most days will not be as good as your good day, nor as bad as your bad day.

                         

                        It's funny because I've been at this sport a really long time, and I rely on the idea of "good day" and "bad day" pretty heavily. You hope to have a good day on race day, and if you watch and see how your body responds, sometimes you can figure out what gets it ready to have a good day. But most of the time, the body has a mind of its own, and it's better to try to get the mind of your mind to come to some sort of agreement with the mind of the body. A working relationship, at least. Even if they will never fully understand each other.

                         

                        I have a race on Friday. I hope it turns out to be a good day.

                          Then you guys come in here crapping all over my post with your opinions on zones and "very comfortable" vs. easy vs. "comfortable", etc., but don't link to a single source supporting your numbers.

                           

                          I've been calculating my heart rate the exact same way the entire time.  Just like the calculators above calculate it.  I'm following their training zones based on that heart rate.  I'm shooting for the same target heart rate on all my easy runs.

                           

                           

                          Don't need sources to multiply  188 X .70  It is pretty simple.   I am not here to argue. How you feel is how you feel. I don't need  a source showing or telling you/us how "comfortable" feels.  It is what it is. I think you are doing fine. Keep doing what you are doing and monitor your progress like you are. Stay consistent and you will continue to improve. Throw in some 5K races to monitor your gains and fitness. Good luck!

                          Those who try, fail! Those who do what it takes to succeed, succeed!!

                            npaden:

                             

                            Just run easy when it's supposed to be easy. If it was easy to run that fast on that day, it was easy, regardless of whether you use 45% of MAF-Resting HR * phase of the moon or whatever. No one else can tell you that run wasn't easy. Unless I start getting over-training symptoms, I don't let my HRM tell me I'm running my easy runs too fast (or too slow) either.

                             

                            No need to get defensive about what formula you used. It doesn't really matter much. In fact, if you're doing so well it might be a good indication to stop being such a slave to the HRM since you're apparently doing it wrong anyway. Wink - JK 

                             

                            I once tried to run a 10K with the exact splits I'd run my previous half marathon in, since my 10K split in that race had been a 90 second PB. Couldn't do it. Blew up completely in the second 5K. When I ran the half, I ran another fast 11.1km. Like Jeff said - good day, bad day. Not even necessarily bad day, just not as good a day.

                            2013 Goal: Make 3:00:16 go away - FAIL.

                            2014 Goal: Make 3:00:16 go away.

                              It's funny because I've been at this sport a really long time, and I rely on the idea of "good day" and "bad day" pretty heavily. You hope to have a good day on race day, and if you watch and see how your body responds, sometimes you can figure out what gets it ready to have a good day. But most of the time, the body has a mind of its own, and it's better to try to get the mind of your mind to come to some sort of agreement with the mind of the body. A working relationship, at least. Even if they will never fully understand each other.

                               

                              I like this so much that I'm incorporating this into my signature.  Go ahead and revoke permission, Jeff, if I'm violating your intellectual property rights.

                              Well at least someone here is making relevance to the subject.

                                Rp

                                 

                                How'd you come up with your "Max" HR anyway? Was it your highest reading from your monitor?

                                 

                                Typically you can add 5 beats to an all out sprint reading at the end of a 5k race because muscle fatigue will keep you from maxing out. So if you add that 5 beats to your 189, you can now run your easy runs at 154 and go even faster.

                                 

                                I'm sure you'll list a website that doesn't mention adding a 5 beats so nevermind, you're right, I'm wrong.

                                 

                                But what happens when you become more fit and your resting HR drops? Now you have to run slower at your 70% so just make sure you forget about checking your resting HR and adjusting your zones.

                                 

                                Anyway, good running to you

                                 

                                The pain that hurts the worse is the imagined pain. One of the most difficult arts of racing is learning to ignore the imagined pain and just live with the present pain (which is always bearable.) - Jeff

                                 

                                2013 Goals:

                                5k = sub 21:00

                                HM = sub 100 minutes

                                Run = 3650 / 2 miles

                                Bike = 3500 miles

                                Swim = 150 miles

                                Race 1st HIM

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