2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 453 times)

    Cheap Marathon race report:

    I ran the Cheap marathon in Derry New Hampshire on April 11. I was initially drawn to this race because of the perfectly flat course in Salisbury MA, and because it looked like the race would definitely take place. In January the race director announced they would have to move outside Massachusetts in order to hold the race due to covid restrictions, and the new course ended up being in NH on a rail trail between Derry and Windham. Unfortunately this meant the course was no longer flat. Below is the elevation profile from my race. The course was on a ~6.5 mile stretch on the rail trail, and runners went out and back twice.

    No photo description available.

    I was also signed up for the Athens marathon in Ohio on April 18, which I had run once before and knew was a great, super flat course, but that ended up going virtual, so I was all in for Cheap.

     

    Training: In my previous marathon (Harrisburg in Nov. 2020), I felt like I had peaked too early, and to avoid that I reduced my cycle length from 16 to 12 weeks. For those 12 weeks I averaged 59.8 mi/week. I typically had 1 workout per week, which was usually T or slightly faster pace intervals, such as 2-3 x 2 mi, 5 x 1 mi, or an MP block (6 @ MP). I missed 2 weeks of workouts midway through due to a hamstring strain which forced me to take abut a week totally off running, though I was able to walk on the treadmill at incline during that time.  Long runs for the cycle were 3 x 18 mi, 2 x 20 mi, and 3 x 22 mi. Only 1 long run had a MP block in it (8 @ MP), and in retrospect this was probably an area where I could have done more (and in past cycles I have). Overall I tended more towards the lower end of things, ie, instead of 4 x 2 mi I did 3 x 2 mi, with the goal of avoiding burnout and overtraining. I might have gone too far in that direction. As always, the other runs were all easy, mostly on dirt roads with Saturday often being an easy trail run.

     

    Shoes: I wore the Endorphin Pro for this race, and had also worn it for Harrisburg last fall. I really liked the shoe in training (I wore it for several of my long runs and some of my workouts) and thought it felt a bit better than the Vaporfly. Now I have a seed of doubt about the shoe after talking with a guy post-race (he is like DW, a guru on shoes and seems to have every new shoe that comes out). He said he found the Endorphin "gave out" after about 16-18 mi, while the VF and Next% did not. He was quite adamant about this effect. I'm not sure if this is real but I certainly had bad experiences the last 2 races in the later stages. More likely that is due to inadequate training and poor race execution, but this has me wondering about the Endorphin. I will experiment with other shoes, maybe try the Next% or other models, for my fall race.

     

    Nutrition/weight: I went in to this race the same weight I usually am, 162 lbs. I was worried about Easter candy causing me to gain weight but managed to hold the line. I had pasta the day before the race for lunch and dinner, and the morning of I had oatmeal and a banana about 3 hours before the start, along with a lot of Gatorade and water. For the race I used SIS gels; I love these because you don't need water with them and they go down really easy. I took 4, 2 in each pocket, and had them roughly at 5, 10, 15 and 20 miles. For this marathon, I did not take any water the whole race. This may seem extreme but I usually don't take much fluid during marathons, partly because it is so awkward and disrupting for me, and I can get so little to actually go down, and partly because I load up beforehand with fluids. This was the first time I took nothing at all, and though the race did not go great I don't really think it was due to hydration, since my pee was clear after the race.

     

    Weather: I was worried when I first went outside race morning at about 5:55 and it was very windy, but by the start (7:30) it had calmed down and the wind was mostly a crosswind the whole race. It was supposed to be overcast the whole morning but ended up being sunny for most of the race. Not ideal but I don't think this was really a factor. The temp at the start was 49 deg F and warmed up to about 53 at the end. I would prefer about 10 degrees cooler than this but overall the conditions were pretty good.

     

    The race: The start was done in what I think has become standard covid era protocol: runners were assigned a group and a number within the group, based on a projected finish time you had provided the race director (though I was targeting 2:50 I had given a time of 2:55 for this, as I wanted to have some people to pass; as it turned out my predicted time was almost exactly what I ran). I was in group 1 for the marathon, position 51. You stood at a cone with your number, wearing your mask, and they started runners every 5 seconds. You could drop your mask once you got to the front (they provided new masks at the finish line), and then you were off. We started on the rail trail, which was a nice wide paved path. My first miles were around 6:28, right where I wanted to be. I did notice the incline right away, and throughout the race it felt like I was always either going uphill or downhill, never on a flat stretch. This really wore me down, physically and mentally. Through the halfway point (according to the race splits 1:24:12) I was on track, but I knew it was extremely unlikely I could maintain this pace to the end. Miles 14-20 were a struggle to hold on and the fade started there, and from 21 to the finish my legs were just not responding and the pace dropped to over 7 min/mile. I hit the 26 mile marker and my watch showed 25.90 miles. As I noted earlier, I had the race as short (26.14 mi) by my watch. Final time 2:54:57, which was good enough for 3rd in the 45-49 AG and 30th overall. Not the sub 2:50 I wanted, but another sub 3 and a BQ - 25. This was my 10th marathon and 5th sub 3. I also got to meet in person another local CT runner for the first time (the shoe guru) and that was cool.

     

    The marathon had 210 runners, and people were spaced out along the trail throughout the race. The half marathon (411 runners) started an hour and 15 minutes after the marathon, so there was an infusion of more runners on the second out and back, but even then things were quite spaced out. I was pretty much running by myself the whole race, except for the last couple miles where there were more runners around me.

     

    Takeaways:

    1. I think I was undertrained for this race. I think there were just not enough quality workouts, and my mileage for this cycle was lower than I've had for many years. Usually I average 62-65 over 16 weeks, here I averaged under 60 for 12 weeks. The other thing really lacking was long runs with MP blocks. Next cycle I will address these issues, while trying to not burn out by keeping the easy stuff really easy.

    2.  I had no tune-up race or time trial this cycle. Usually for a spring marathon I have a local 10k in late March that works well as a tune-up but it went virtual this year. Thus I didn't have that data point for where my fitness was, but I think I was probably lacking in MP endurance due to the factors listed above.

    3. No more marathons in the Endorphin Pro.

    4. I would still like to run this race when it goes back to the normal course in Salisbury. That has a few years of results in strava which show the course is accurate length (by any Garmin model!) and it looks sooooo fast and flat.

    5. I'm open to advice on what to do differently next time, in terms of training or anything else.

     

    Next up is a 24k trail race in mid-May which should be fun, and then a 10 miler in late May. After that I'll start training for Hartford on Oct. 9.

    2:52:16 (2018)

    dpschumacher


    5 months til Masters

      Well done JT. Training for flat and then running hills is rough. 60 miles average over 12 weeks is rough training for a PR. Still strong effort.

      2023 Goals

      Marathon Sub 2:37 (CIM) 2:41:18

      10k Sub 35:00 (Victory 10k 34:19)

      5k Sub 16:00 (Hot Dash 5k in March (16:48), Brian Kraft in May (16:20), Twilight 5000 in July and August (16:20/16:25 Both heat index 102-103F)

      Sub 1:16 Half Marathon  City of Lakes Half Marathon 1:15:47)

      Sub 56:30 in 10 mile (Twin Cities 10 mile, Canceled due to weather, 56:35 as a workout)

       

      2024 Goals

      Sub 2:37 Marathon

      Sub 1:15 Half

      Sub 34 10k

      Sub 16 5k

       

       

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

        JTReeves - good report - clear and with lots of detail.  A few thoughts (as always, keeping in mind that I am extrapolating from my own experiences and observations, and we are all different - this is all take it or leave it or completely reject it when you get better advice).

         

        - Honestly, nothing about your training screamed "undertrained" to me.  For myself, a 12 week cycle (assuming that didn't include the taper) seems pretty long.  And I'm not sure there's much difference between 60 and 65 miles per week for an experienced marathoner who already has significant lifetime mileage.   OTOH, five 20+ milers seems like a lot to me.

         

        - You note that you lacked specific marathon pace work and also tune-up races.  Those both are things that would hurt me.  I think that once you get to a certain level (where you are) it's no longer about being able to cover the distance, but rather about holding pace over that distance.  To that point, marathon pace and LT workouts accomplish a lot more than a 20 miler at easy pace.  The tune-up races are important just to maintain race instincts and pacing, as well as break up the training some.

         

        - Interesting on the shoe "giving out."  I've experienced something similar but different, in that when my legs hit a certain level of fatigue, my gait devolves to a certain pattern, and a shoe that may work well when I'm fresher and more nimble no longer does.    For myself, a good test is to do a 21 miler with my last 7 miles at marathon effort, and to wear my intended marathon shoe for at least the second half of that run.  How the shoe feels at the end of that run is very close to how it will feel in the closing miles of a marathon.  And while no shoe will feel GREAT, some shoes are a non-issue at that point (Adios Boost, Vaporfly, Kinvara), while others become another obstacle to overcome (Boston Boost, I'm looking at you).

         

        - I keep thinking that starting off right at marathon pace didn't help you.  Jmac and I disagree on how much to ease into a race (which may depend on different physiologies) but it doesn't make sense to me that hitting goal pace right out of the gate would work well for anyone.  Running a good marathon is like trying to cross the desert on a single tank of gas in the best time possible.  If you can just barely make it across while holding 45 MPH, then the last thing you want to do is floor the gas at the start to get to to that speed immediately.  You just burn precious glycogen.  Better to gently accelerate over the course of a mile or two.

         

        - I'm not surprised about not needing water - from what I understand the SIS gels are supposed to be very liquid and to cover some of that need.  Combine that with a cool day, and....

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        OMR


          JT:  Congrats...not quite what you hoped for, but still an impressive effort.  I'm curious about what your HR is for LT runs.  One of my favorite parts of Hudson's book is the chapter on analyzing why things didn't work out as planned.

           

          My week was a bit of a down week.  I've been having a little pain inside/below my right knee, and on the 5th metatarsal head of my left foot.  I think the knee pain is due to the return to roads, while the foot pain is due to the month on the elliptical (it's been there a while now, was hoping it would go away, but it hasn't).  So, I took an extra rest day and shortened things up a bit.  Knee pain is gone, foot pain is "better."

           

          S:  Rest

          M:  6.8M @ 8:51 trail run

          T:  6.3M @ 7:56 w/10 x 100m strides

          W:  Rest

          T:  Rest

          F:  5.7M @ 7:55

          S:  16M @ 7:45 w/4 @ MP

           

          Total:  34.8M

            Mikkey: Thanks a lot, I think you're right, the workouts need some tweaking and having tune up races definitely helps physically and mentally. Impressive marathon workout in your week!

             

            DPS: Thanks; I will definitely up the mileage a bit next time but it will be nowhere near your level!

             

            DW: Thank you for taking the time for the detailed feedback, I really appreciate it. And don't worry, I don't take offense by any of it!  You make good points. I agree that the workouts could have been more and that those are most important. I think I need to strike a balance between the volume and frequency of those and the long runs, and making it all work so I don't burn out. I may have to yield a bit on the long runs to fit in more in terms of LT and MP workouts. I also agree on the benefits of the tune-up races. Last cycle I did a 10 mi TT in lieu of a tune-up race since none were available, and since that seemed to be when I peaked I think I perhaps mistook that TT for having contributed to my burnout, thus avoided doing one this cycle. Anyway, this fall I should have a race option before Hartford which will be good. Good point also on starting off right at MP vs easing into it. I did kind-of ease into it, starting at about 7:10 pace and accelerating over the first quarter mile to MP, but could have been much more gradual about it. This is something I need to work on; I'm not a very patient racer.

             

            OMR: Thanks OMR, I'll have to read that part of the Hudson book. For LT pace, I would say it is around 168-170 or so for me, but I tend to do a lot of my intervals a bit faster than LT. I did a 10 mile TT on the track last year and for that my HR average was 167; that should in theory be around my LT pace. A lot also varies depending on the surface on which I'm running; hills have a drastic effect for me in both directions as far as HR.

            2:52:16 (2018)

            JMac11


            RIP Milkman

              DW - you must have me confused with someone else. In every successful marathon I've run (outside of Boston, where I crashed and burned due to the hot temps), my first mile is my slowest mile. I also negative split more marathons than most. For my 2:36 (5:58 pace), I ran my first mile in 6:14, and thats at CIM where it's a screaming downhill for a good part of that first mile. I feel like I'm the rare person on here who says trying to positive split a marathon, which I know Pfitz advocates, is dumb. You need to try to even split, with the goal of negative splitting, but your first mile should be about 10 seconds behind pace.

               

              JT - I agree with almost everything DW said, as usual. I just said a couple of pages ago that too many people focus on needing more long runs. You are not that person. You run more long runs than anyone I know. You don't need more of them. After miles per week, I think LT runs are the most important run for experience marathoners, and I don't think you do enough of them given where you are in your "career." You have the endurance. You don't need more of it. This is one of those "what do you have to lose" at this point points of advice.

               

              On MP runs - I need probably 3 of them a cycle. A 10 miler, a 12 miler, and a 14 miler. Thats it. They don't really make or break you in terms of fitness, but they help me a lot mentally to realize how to get through rough patches. I have yet to run one of those MP runs and not thought around mile 6 "I can't do this." But once I find a way to get it done, it's good mental training for the race. But I'll agree with DW that you don't really need more than a couple

               

              My final piece of advice for you is something I've said a few times: you need to consider bigger races. Not NYC/Boston big, but at least something where you can have folks around you at 2:50 pace for a good chunk of the race. That's possible with a lot of them. Of course, you can blow this off because you like small races, but to reach your best (which you may need to get sub 2:50), it's a small piece of the puzzle that may help.

               

              That's all I got. I've been rooting for you for years and like DW, this all comes for a place of trying to help you achieve one more big absolute PR before you enter old man age-graded PRs 

              5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

               

               

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                DW - you must have me confused with someone else. In every successful marathon I've run (outside of Boston, where I crashed and burned due to the hot temps), my first mile is my slowest mile. I also negative split more marathons than most. For my 2:36 (5:58 pace), I ran my first mile in 6:14, and thats at CIM where it's a screaming downhill for a good part of that first mile. I feel like I'm the rare person on here who says trying to positive split a marathon, which I know Pfitz advocates, is dumb. You need to try to even split, with the goal of negative splitting, but your first mile should be about 10 seconds behind pace.

                 

                 

                I think you and I agree on the big picture and vary on the details.  For example, I prefer to start about 30 seconds slow, and ease into pace over the first 4-5 miles.  That's different from your 10 seconds slower for the first mile.

                 

                I think each may be an example of the same theory applying differently to different people.  I also think there is less of a gulf in effort between 30 seconds slow/10 seconds slow than between 10 seconds slow and on pace.

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                  Thanks JMac for the excellent feedback. It's good to be hearing the same points from multiple people on what was missing and what to work on. I will definitely beef up the LT work next time and throw in a couple of big MP runs, and try (this will be the tough part) to cut back on the long runs. But if I'm upping the LT workouts I may be forced to cut down the LRs just to survive!  And I will try to start out slower next time.

                  2:52:16 (2018)

                  Mikkey


                  Mmmm Bop

                    Well done JT. Training for flat and then running hills is rough. 60 miles average over 12 weeks is rough training for a PR. Still strong effort.

                     

                    Yep! That course elevation profile looks awful.

                    5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                    cinnamon girl


                      JT: I hope/think after a few days you'll look back at it with an even more positive assessment and be quite satisfied. Look at that elevation profile. Was that a 100ft hill? And that you practically ran by yourself. I think your body was telling you something there during training and you listened to it and adjusted, resulting in not much of a hiccup for a solid training cycle. It's all good! I think you should feel encouraged and have hope re: good things to come. Anyways, I think you did great 

                       

                       

                       

                       

                      Andres1045


                        JT - A lot of the comments make sense to me. Particularly the idea that this is a first race back after more than a year of no real races. And this one wasn't even a full-on real race, in that it was still quite small and people were spread out. But overall, being within 4-5 minutes of a PR after the year we had is incredible.

                         

                        You're a better marathoner than me (as if it wasn't obvious, it became clear when you blasted past me on the hills of Boston 2017 when we were both struggling--and that was what my "you never give up" comment on Strava was about. Not that you don't actually quit, but that even when it's obvious you're struggling, you still push instead of just cruising in). I think we've had similar crashes. The obvious is that "we go out too fast" for our fitness/training/weather/course or whatever. The other criticism is often 6+ 20 milers is not only unnecessary, it's harmful. And maybe all that's correct. But I've often wondered, for myself, if there's something else going on. I wonder now if you have a similar issue.

                         

                        We've had different injuries, but they're at least in similar spots and maybe they cause the same problems. I've been battling my psoas injury since the end of 2015. It's in a much more manageable spot now, but nonetheless it still is something I'm constantly tending to. And in the 7 marathons I've run since then, in at least 5 of them, I've had a total structural breakdown in my legs at some point, as early as 13 miles, or as late as 21. When my psoas injury is bad, this happens on some of my shorter "long runs". The other day it came up on a 15 miler. After 8 miles my hip/core/hamstrings felt like I was barely able to move. With every step I was in complete pain. I'm not really sure how I made it to 15, but I slowed down quite a bit to get there. Many of my marathons have ended like this. Right now, it takes me like a week to not feel like this on any run after I do a 18+ hour of flying (which totally kills my hips/psoas).

                         

                        And when this happens, my feet are killing me. But the reality is everywhere down from my hips to my feet are in a lot of pain. I haven't found a shoe that avoided this issue. I, too, wondered if it was something that could be corrected with the vaporfly. But no. I wore those for my virtual marathon this January and was in total pain by 14 miles (which I did two days after flying across the Atlantic).

                         

                        I only have to be in halfway decent shape to race a half hard, and for my aerobic capacity to be my limitation. I can be in great shape for a marathon and the breakdown still happens--totally fine aerobically but get to a point where it's a struggle to put one foot in front of the other even at a reduced pace. (I know there will be people here that read this and just say "that's part of going out too fast." I understand why they believe that, but it's more than that. I promise).

                         

                        If this is the case for you, I don't have an answer on how to address it. I will try going back to weights, and try more hill training both up and down (at least while I have hills). I have prolonged the breakdown with the more 20 milers I've done, and at something of pace. I don't know that I'll add more than I had last time, but I certainly won't drop those down too much. For me, the 3x2 and 2x3 always gets me in great shape, but might just lead to better results for a half. Don't know how well that works for a full. Like you, I do them faster than many suggest (10s faster than half effort). But I'll probably keep those in a longer midweek run (towards the end of a 15 miler or so).

                         

                        I definitely think it's something you can figure out and sub 2:50 is within reach. Even if you don't get there, you have to be happy with consistently putting up the times that you put up in these marathons.

                        Upcoming races: Boston

                          Cinnamon: Thanks so much; I always feel better after hearing from you! The elevation changes were gradual but I think that really zapped me. The isolated running part doesn't bother me too much, I think what I miss more is not having any crowds along the route. That always kind of pumps me up and helps keep you going. It's definitely a downside to covid-era racing.

                           

                          Andres: Thanks for the feedback and sharing your experience. When I think of Boston 2017 I remember the race was, like you noted, an awful experience that year due to the heat. I do remember how great it was meeting a lot of the folks from the old thread and from here, like you and Weather. I also remember when we met on the course. I felt awful that at first I didn't realize it was you. I was so f*cking out of it at that point!  And looking back I think I should have stayed with you and worked together. At that point any kind of time goal was long since down the toilet for both of us so I don't know what I was thinking. One of my regrets. It would have been easier if we suffered those last miles together!

                          Regarding your experience with your psoas injury, I certainly did have some related issues with my hip for years. Part of that was the double hernia I had from early 2016 until late 2018 when I had surgery to fix it, but I strained my hip flexor in 2019 really badly and was dealing with that for over 6 months before it was healed. Those issues were setbacks for sure, but in terms of this marathon, the hip was fine. But there may be some inherent weakness somewhere in the chain contributing to my problems in the later stages. Aerobically things seemed to be ok in this race, it just seemed like my legs were cooked. Maybe it was a lack of MP and LT work. I hope so, because that I can fix next cycle. If it requires big mileage to solve the problem, I'm probably out of luck as I don't think I can take much more than 70-75 mpw.

                          2:52:16 (2018)

                          Mikkey


                          Mmmm Bop

                            JT - Great detailed RR and I’ll leave it to the experts to analyse your LT runs and whether you ran too many or too few long runs!  Honestly, that was NOT a PR course and you did extremely well to keep it together and go sub2:55. I think we’re very similar rhythm runners and prefer to lock into MP from start to finish on a flat course. Your first 2 miles uphill at 6:28 pace would’ve taken up a lot of energy right from the start and then another tough hill before you even get to halfway!  Interesting about the “gave out” regarding the Endorphin Pro as mine just arrived this morning! They feel very similar to the Speed so I’m going to give them a go next month as I think they’ll be more suitable than the Vaporflys.   Anyway, I agree with cinnamon in that you did incredibly well on Sunday. 👍

                             

                            Andres - Sorry to hear about the psoas injury and didn’t realise that it had been such a big issue for so long. I would recommend getting back into a strength training routine regardless and hopefully see you in Spain December. 👍

                            5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                            OMR


                              JT:  Thanks for the info regarding your LT.  The reason I was asking is because I noticed on Strava that you were up at 168 or 169 bpm fairly early (on the first uphill), and I was wondering if you overcooked it a bit early on.  I was also wondering about this as it relates to my own experience, in that for me, I base my MP pace on what I can run in MP effort workouts with a bpm in the low 150s (my LT threshold is in the low/mid 160s).  Personally, I need the room for the HR to go up over time, but I also know that I'm not as fast as you, and the longer you're out there, the more cardiac drift will occur.  I also don't wear my HR monitor during marathons, because I know I would keep looking at it.  And I'm glad someone else said that was not a flat course, because it's more hills than I could ever find on a 26.2 mile run around here!

                               

                              Just as food for thought, when I was working toward my own marathon PR several years ago, I ran a race in March (Napa) where I was on pace through about mile 21, and then the legs just kind of fell apart.  In prep for the next marathon (Grandmas in June), I did a lot of hard hill work on the treadmill, building up to 5-6 x 0.5M @ 6% incline @ 5K effort.  For me, that seemed to help prepare me for Grandmas.  FYI, in both cases, I was running more mileage than you; peaked in the low to mid-90s, averaged in the 70s, so who knows, it could simply have been the accumulation of more mileage over a few more months.

                               

                              Regardless, that was still a strong run, and I think you definitely have a sub-2:50 in your future.

                                Mikkey: Yeah, those first couple miles did feel tougher than they should have with the uphill, though I felt much better when it started on the downhill. I guess it's true for all runners to varying degrees but for me hills just kill my rhythm and I never recover fully on downhills from the prior uphill. Thus why I'm always seeking a flat course! Maybe I should just run St. George and let gravity carry me under 2:50 

                                 

                                Sorry to go back and forth on the Endorphin Pro! It is a great shoe, but I think I just have a sort of grudge against it after the last couple races, plus hearing what my buddy told me about his experience with it. Maybe I'll warm back up to it after a while. It certainly worked well for me in training. Give it a go and see how you like it.

                                 

                                OMR: Good points on the HR. Like I mentioned above, I definitely felt it those first couple miles. I was tempted to look at my HR but never did as I thought it would be bad news. One thing I need to work on in training is running different paces at the prescribed HR zones for those paces. I'm not real disciplined in that regard and tend to overdo it (run faster than I should for T, M, etc). Those hill reps at 5k pace sound brutal! I can see how those would make you strong.

                                2:52:16 (2018)