Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
Mother of Cats
OMR - sad to see that you've had to shut it down. Wasn't your PT saying that you might be able to make your goal race? What changed?
Rovatti - isn't there a fountain of youth somewhere in Central Park? Maybe under Cat hill? BTW, my email notification for this thread made it look as though Jim's comment was yours, and I was about to give you a hard time for sneaking a marathon
Smax - you omitted another problem with coaching (for the coach). I think it is impossible to coach well AND run to your top potential. TO be your best as a runner, you need to be a bit selfish; coaching requires one to be selfless at times. So the two conflict.
Jaime - Froome makes me very angry. If nothing else, he's made life harder for those of us who are truly asthmatic and aren't doping. His explanation for why he tested for that much albuterol is ridiculous.
PJ - perhaps you're just perpetually peaking. There's a "high points" joke in there somewhere.
Dad - nice week with some speed and some hills. Remind me - are you doing Botulism this year?
FB -feel better soon!
Pesto - darn nice for a training run. That puts you at well under 2:55, I would think.
Dex - I'll be interested to see if she can handle 100+ miles, or if it ends up being a bit much for her. I'm still not sure she's cut for the marathon - possibly a better 5K-10K runner.
Half-marathon tune-ups: more power to those of you who can PR those. I've found that for me, the optimal training for a half is completely different from the optimal training for a full. A half-marathon run during or at the end of a marathon training cycle never matches what I could run off of a cycle dedicated to the half. But that just highlights how we're all different.
7.5 very easy to yoga (9:28), yoga, and then 1.5 very easy home (9:18) plus drills and strides. Should have checked the forecast before stepping out this morning. I left my house dressed for mid-50s and dry, not realizing that the weather would shift shortly to mid-40s and rain....
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Speed Surplus
RE: Jorgensen - I expected something in that ballpark. One thing to bear in mind is that that track is pretty much as fast as any outdoor track, so the "wow, indoor!" factor doesn't necessarily apply. The "wow, she had a baby 6 months ago and wasn't even focusing on running until recently" factor definitely applies, however.
As for her focusing on the 5k/10k - I disagree. I think the half/full will be her best event, and since there is no half at the Olympics, the full it is! The triathlon distance she trained for was around ~2 hours, so a 2:20-2:30 event is right in her wheelhouse.
Rune - Sounds like a nicely paced race and just under your goal if you were shooting for 95. Nicely done!
Max - Congrats on being the oldest and fastest ultra runner last year!
My week:
Had one URD (and one SRD), but still building slowly and steadily toward some decent mileage. Hoping to crack 40 this week with just one rest day.
5:27 / 18:49 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12
Cobra Commander Keen
FB - Get better. Faster runs = faster recovery, right?
DWave - Awesome LR, especially not being completely over the cold.
Rune - As before, great race and great pacing.
Jim - Nice to see you around again, glad to hear the IT band is better.
Pesto - Had a great race/LR.
OMR - Bummer about no running, but props for doing that boring not-running-but-helpful-for-running-and-other-things work.
Max - It sounds like you have a solid grasp on what it takes to coach properly.
E11 - Good job on your race, if you're around to read this.
Ilana - It's nice to see more runs from you on Strava.
Dad - Great week.
Week 1 of my HM training plan is in the (digital) books! I'm definitely liking the plan so far. My LR was a bit faster than called for (8min/mi), and a bit faster than what I was aiming for. It was so cold I couldn't see my watch buried under my clothes, so I decided to go for a "a bit faster than easy" feel. I should have worn my HRM so I could strap the watch over the top of everything like I did for my workout this morning.
I was supposed to do 7x 3 min intervals w/ 2 min recoveries this morning, something I thought I had properly inputted into my Garmin calendar and could therefor just let my watch guide me through. Upon checking (just before starting to run) I had accidentally set the recoveries to 1 minute. Seeing as how all the intervals were the same length/pace I figured I'd quickly recreate the workout using the interval function of my watch. Except that I set 8x intervals instead of 7x, and didn't even notice this until well after the run was over.
I'm hoping to finally be able to make a group LR this weekend.
Weekly SummaryMonday, Feb 05, 2018 thru Sunday, Feb 11, 2018
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Catching up on posts and I think I read this: "it's only 100k, though." I must be in the wrong place.
Jaime: I've been paying a little bit of attention to the Froome thing. Unfortunately cycling may be the one sport that has even less credibility than track and field now.
Runthechamp: Congrats on your race! Sounds like you paced it really well.
FB: Hope you're feeling better.
Pesto: Congrats to you too -- great race!
Darkwave: Mid-40s and rain is one of my least favorite conditions to run in, and also probably the one I run in most often here.
My week: I ended up around 38 miles, planned one workout that didn't happen. I did strides after a couple of easy runs though and those were fine, whatever was up with my knee seems to have resolved.
I saw that the Revel Race series - the downhill marathons - has added Mt. Hood to their roster with a marathon there in July (I think). The race starts at Timberline Lodge up on Mt. Hood, and really is downhill for 26 miles, with the first 6 being a sharp decline. It drops from 6000 ft to around 4000 ft. I ran it once as part of a Hood to Coast team. It's really fast, but my quads were shot the rest of the relay and I was sore for at least a week. I can't imagine running that first 6 and then going 20 more.
I'm still lurking a bit. Just a quick drop by to congratulate rune and e78 on very well run races! fb - great week for being sick! If Marseille doesn't work out, maybe you can run Paris too?
I'm still lurking a bit. Just a quick drop by to congratulate rune and e78 on very well run races!
fb - great week for being sick! If Marseille doesn't work out, maybe you can run Paris too?
Pesto -- nice idea! I just checked and Paris (April 8th) is still open for registration. Is that right? Does anyone have experience with this? Do you know typically when the race fills up, and how long I have to decide?
Having kids who decide what they (and therefore we) want to do for school breaks at the last minute can be challenging at times.
m: 2:55:04 | 10k: 37:14 | 50mile: 9:35
Will Run for Donuts!
Pesto - Impressive half, especially for a training run!
Jaime - Froome makes me very angry. If nothing else, he's made life harder for those of us who are truly asthmatic and aren't doping. His explanation for why he tested for that much albuterol is ridiculous. Half-marathon tune-ups: more power to those of you who can PR those. I've found that for me, the optimal training for a half is completely different from the optimal training for a full. A half-marathon run during or at the end of a marathon training cycle never matches what I could run off of a cycle dedicated to the half. But that just highlights how we're all different.
Re Froome - I used to be a huge cycling fan. I even went to France one year to follow Le Tour in person for two weeks, and used to watch/follow on the internet all the other big races. Loved the sport, but the doping just wore me down. This stuff has been going on for 30+ years now, and it's just sad. It's a beautiful sport, but it'll probably never be clean.
DW - I'm curious about your comment about half vs. full training. For me, training for any sort of distance has had "carry-over" effects on other distances as well. For example, I've twice raced 5Ks coming off a marathon cycle (5K being about 10-12 days after the goal marathon), and had big PRs both times. But, like you said, we're all different. How has your half vs. full training been different from each other?
Quick training question: I'm doing all my intervals on roads, which include a very healthy amount of rolling hills. I would like to get close to the plan pace for the intervals, but I'm certainly fine with being "slow" due to the hills so long as my effort levels are pretty much in line with what the goal pace would be when running on flats. Is this the "best" approach, or should I really try hitting the paces, hills be damned?
I think there can be carry-over effects - for example, I can take the strength from a marathon cycle and add speed to that to get a half-marathon PR. Or race miles as part of improving my 5K time. But that's different from targeting your training for one distance and then PR-ing at another distance, IMHO.
My half-marathon training is very focused on tempo workouts - 4-5 miles at 10 mile-half-marathon pace is my most important workout, followed by a high volume of 5K-paced intervals (something like 3x(1200, 800, 400)) plus some shorter, faster stuff The long runs and mileage are a lower priority, with very few long runs over 14 miles. My coach has most of our team do the 4-3-2-1 workout at MP as part of half-marathon training, but I only do that workout when training for a full - it doesn't get me anything when training for a half.
In contrast, my marathon training emphasizes MP workouts; I'll keep my track workouts very controlled, with not much faster than 10K pace.
It might be worth noting that I'm probably closer to my personal ceiling than most of the runners here, which is why my training needs to be specialized for each distance. Put another way, a lot of the people on this thread have the potential to run far faster than I ever will, even if our times are similar now . Since you're less developed (relatively) there's a stronger response to training that carries over to all distances.
CK - I would always do by effort, not pace. Forcing a pace no matter what is a recipe for overreaching/injury/etc. Remember that you're trying to provoke a specific response from your body, and what matters for that is the amount of stress placed on your body, not the number on the watch.
Problem Child
keen for rolling hills/roads I'd personally aim to keep pace for the intervals. If they're super long or steep you'd have to adjust but I'd try to keep it going. Looks like you were able to keep around a 6:00 pace for those. What is the course like?
Max Congratulations on being old. Glad you like the updates.
OMR Max has experience with inexperienced help. Ask me how I know.
oregon Check out Revel Mt. Charleston in Las Vegas. The start was pretty cold last year. I think it was 30-40F temperature changes from start to finish too.
rune good job on the race. The pace might have started a little faster to make up for a long course and when you slowed he was actually catching you. It's a little different pacing a race vs. running. Some people get really upset you're not exactly 1:35 pace for the run and the course measures long, or they think you started too fast when they actually weren't prepared for 1:35 that day.
kk solid long run this weekend.
My week
Friday I HAD to skip because I forgot lunch then had a beer share I wanted to attend in the evening. Saturday I woke up around 6 or 7 and NeRP was asleep on DW, while DW was asleep so I took him out to the couch while she slept. DW had plans for 1:00 so I kind of killed the long run for the day. My mom came over and when I mentioned I wanted to take the dog for a walk (this would include NeRP) she said I could go and she'd watch him....yeah, not happening. He'd been asleep about 30 minutes at that point. I have a feeling he'd just magically wake up 5 minutes after I left. Not happening when he was already waking up a lot throughout the night. Sunday I volunteered at a local race then went and plugged the trailer (charge batteries and run the refrigerator) in for camping this weekend. Had to run to Home Depot really quick then headed home to be there around 1:00pm since I didn't think DW would be happy I was gone all day long. Did nothing for the rest of the day because it wasn't interesting to go for a 10 mile run and make it 1/3 of my total distance. I think Tuesday's intervals went well. We shall find out tomorrow (hopefully it isn't freezing) as I am skipping outdoor running today and favoring the treadmill. It's "feels like 28F" weather and I'm cherry picking for an easy boring treadmill run/TRX workout in the garage.
Volunteering for races is always interesting. I'd signed up early and received confirmation. Having volunteered for this organization previously I hadn't heard anything so I sent an email. Somehow I got lost in the system so "show up at 8:15" became the plan. I was put on medal duty which you'd think would be easy. The problem was the race ordered 700 medals and had two color bibs. White bibs had to acknowledge they might not get a medal on race day. I was told this along with being told that just about all 700 people showed up. Okay. White bibs = wait for medal. Well to some people this must have meant "If you finish early you'll get a medal and won't have to wait." NOPE.
It gets pretty bad when I'm choosing to stand near the medals because people are eyeballing them and looking for an opportunity to take one before they go home so they don't have to wait. So I started stacking them up into piles and handing them to other volunteers to hand out. Yeah I see you awkwardly standing about 5 feet from the table looking at me, your friends/family, the table, back at me, etc. I don't care. You agreed to wait. I'm positive some people had their "red bib" friend get a second medal so they wouldn't have to wait.
One kid, about 7 years old, walks past the table really quick, grabs two medals, goes straight to his mother (no visible bib) and hands her a medal. They walk off and end up taking a photo behind the medal table. Since I am wearing sunglasses I see him about 7' from me. I resisted the urge to walk up to him and his mother as they're taking a photo and ask to see her bib. I'm pretty sure she was a bandit and the "go mom go" sign, or whatever it said, was just a fake. Yeah it was 25F at the end of the race so plenty of people had jackets on over their bibs. I don't think this was the case for her.
Then you have the cool people who didn't even reach for a medal as they crossed the line. Awesome. Until they start asking how long they'll have to wait to get their medal "until the last person crosses the line. It could be at least another hour and a half." Some people didn't like this so they wanted to know who to talk to. "(race director name) is inside. She told me to give her every medal we have left over." I commend the woman who waited but I didn't really care "someone without a bib/with a white bib got a medal so why do I have to wait?" because I'm a volunteer doing what I was told.
I hand the RD the remaining medals. She sorts out the details for people who stayed. I offered to help more so she directs me towards the age group awards. Sweet this should be easy. Lady is wearing a 3 week old so I figured I'd be a TON of help. Well.....the awards were coffee mugs and while SOMEONE thought they were organized with cute little gold/silver/bronze tags (hard to see in a presentation hall not well lit) they're not in any sort of order. 70+ male is next to 20-29 male is next to 1-10 male. First and second are all over the place and we're not exactly given much time to find what's there. Combine this with a pretty quick "first place is ____ second is ____ and third is ____" and it makes it kind of a mess to hand a 7 year old kid a second place when they actually have first. At least it didn't SAY first/second/third on the award so literally no one will know when the tag is removed. About the third male age group I had a couple awards sorted. The ironic thing was by the time I had male 1st-3rd place sorted one of the race organizers was helping and commented on how organized I had the male awards. You're welcome.
Wanting to get your age group award I get. Not everyone gets one of those. Having them organized is a lot easier when you are adding candy to a coffee mug and putting a tag saying "Male 1-10 1st place" on it. How hard would it be to put them back in order when it's a 3x4 tray holding them? Literally 1-10, 11-15, 16-20, and 20-29 male 1st through third could have been organized before the event even started. Whatever...I got a few extra bucks to pay for a race. Hopefully I win an age group award there.
It's the second year of the race. Last year they had 300 people. This year when they had 250 sign up they ordered 700 medals. It's posted on their website that only the first 700 people will get medals, the others will have to wait. They had something like 8-900 people show up. Yup, just another thing race directors get to deal with. Bandits, unhappy participants who agreed to wait for a medal wanting their medal when they cross the line, wanting to know their position and when results will be posted, etc. Seriously though, I'm just a little surprised at how much people want their race day medals and what people will do to get them. I know I'd have assumed I could get one because I'm fast however I think they sent out an email saying you'd get it after the race ended blah blah blah not "you'll get it race day."
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Duke Of Bad Judgment
Keen: Definitely effort like Darkwave said. If you want to get geeky about it, Jack Daniels estimates that you lose 12-15 seconds in a mile for every 1% of uphill grade, and gain 8-10 seconds for every 1% of downhill. I probably have this wrong but I think that means that if you roll up and back down a 50 foot hill in a mile at a constant effort, you would expect to be 5-7 seconds slower in that mile than you'd be on the flats. Also, it's the rare workout where getting the pace exactly right matters - if your effort is about right you'll get the benefit of the workout. Finally, most people push too hard on the uphills but not hard enough on the downhills. It doesn't take much of a downhill grade before you have to fly to keep your effort up, and for me at least when it gets just a little bit steeper I can't go fast enough to avoid recovering. Little rollers should work fine for intervals but big rollers have some challenges on the downhills.
Max: best of luck at Black Canyon and with the coaching endeavor! Will you include any coaching about the crotch lubing you mentioned or stick to running? Dave makes a good point about being able to both coach and run well.
Jaime: nice week!
FB: not a bad week considering the sickness. No empathy from the feline? Sounds about right.
Dad: solid week.
Pesto: nice racing/training and solid week overall. What will your mileage max be for this cycle?
DW: I like that LR workout. Have you ever thought about flipping the MP miles to 1-2-3-4?
CK: nice week despite the watch / HRM probs. I went to put on my HR strap for today’s run and didn’t have the actual monitor snapped to the strap. It was very useless at that point. I would focus on effort over pace.
Got a massage today. She did some stretching for me as well. It always surprises me that they find many more sore spots than I knew I had. I swear I feel 2 inches taller when I leave too. Although, it turns out this is not a measurable change.
Last week:
Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 17:09 (2021), 10k: 35:54 (2021), HM: 1:21:55 (2020), M: 2:53:18 (2021)
Nope. Coach dictates the order and volume of the MP segments. And he generally likes descending ladders, not ascending. However, we will be testing out 2x5 for the next two workouts (1 mile recovery) to see how that goes.
Building on Smax's point - if the advantage gained on a downhill matched the cost of an uphill, then we'd all run the same on rolling courses as we do on pancakes, as long as there was no net elevation change. But we know in fact that a hilly course is almost always slower than a pancake. If race effort yields different paces on flat versus hilly courses, then that's an argument for training by effort, not pace, on hills.
Brewing - people get really really crazy about medals, I guess. Wow.
Half vs FM training: Yeah, when you are close to your potential, it's probably better to devote your time to targeted workouts. I believe I'm rather closer to my max in HM than I would ever get in the FM, and the reason being is my mileage. I just don't see myself going over 70mpw.
Therefore, the rare occasion when I put marathon cycles, it's probably my best shape and enough to PR in other distances
Re: Doping, Well, Procycling has more money poured in, and doping has been around for over 60 years (Tom Simson died in Mt Ventoux due to amphetamines in 1967), the Belgian Mix (pot belge) was around for many years... then, game changer came with blood doping which dominated the scene until 2007 with improvements around 10-15%.
The Athletes biopassport limited somehow the impact (in real racing), but there is always the temptation to circumvent the rules either with new drugs, or by microdosing or mxing allowed substances.
On one side Froome is a textbook suspicious transformation, on the other Sky, with a "holier than thou" attitude is jumping from scandal to the next one (TUEs, injections for Wiggins, jiffybags, lost medical records, Salbutamol)
Dwave I forgot to mention the best part...it serves as a fundraise for Catholic Charities of Northern Nevada. Yup...gimmie my medal I donated my money from my purchases.
Just out of curiousity, do you think other sports are "clean"? Do you follow other sports?
Sky is all about the grey areas and pushing boundaries, but so are many other teams in many other athletic events. One example is Nike Oregon Project. Froome has refused TUE's during competition other times though.
What I really don't understand are people who cheat/push boundaries, sometimes at the expense of their health, when no money or even fame are on the line. Like Cat 2 masters racers and people racing on zwift. Just, why?