I have made no such promise.

 

Courses are measured/certified by measuring wheel - which is measuring the length of the surface of the running route - i.e. the hypotenuse.

 

(I suspect that in practicality, the slope of even what we consider to be a steep downhill is so minimal that there is negligible difference between the hypotenuse and the base leg)

Confirmed. If you equate the total elevation loss (of Cal's marathon, from Strava) as the AC leg, the BC leg is 26.18 miles.

However, this doesn't make much sense to me because technically only perfectly flat courses would be "not short". Any change in slope would result in the measurement being off. I feel like I'm being trolled...

 

 

Mikkey: I just took a look at your training log: how the hell did you get in shape so fast?! I'm jealous. Great to see those big LRs. I think you're sandbagging big time with that goal for Valencia. 

 

Aww thanks!  Considering I could barely walk for 3 months during the summer I’m happy to be running another marathon again!  I’m not going to get too greedy as I’ve only run about 900 miles this year...but I’ll give you an honest goal time the week before the race. 👍  And I’m pleased to see that you and darkwave are putting in some decent runs again. 👍

Cal - I could never run that race as I’m scared of heights...I’d be petrified looking down at the start line!  Seriously though that must be a confidence booster for CIM. 👍

Keen - congrats again on your 10K PR! I agree with JTR - with this new time and your weekly mileage you are in great shape to go sub 2:55, imho. The year I had almost identical PR in 10K (37:47 in 2014), I ran CIM several months later in 2:51. And I think I ran similar mileage, maybe a little less on average. But there is a difference though - by then I already ran sub 3 time 5 times. So, I had no psychological barrier (if it exists . On the other side - you are much younger. so, you can go straight for a faster time. I am opposite of JMac though - I will take few little PRs instead of one huge one. rovatti called me Bubka for doing that - I ran 9 marathons, each faster than previous one before breaking the out of it. Anyway, I think you are bound for a great time and it can definitely happen this year, just do not relax too soon (but do not fret too much

JTR - great mileage week. Also glad you are running conservative paces. Lately I started to think again that mileage takes precedent over great speedy workouts with less mileage (of course combining both makes it even better but I have difficult time to do both now).

DW - hope you found/find a great doctor who will help you in pinpointing the problem(s).

Thanks for all kind words re my Saturday's marathon. I didn't mention it because I didn't consider it as a race for a time. Of course I wanted to run it as fast as possible, but mostly I ran it out of curiosity. I ran enough trail races and enough runs to (and from) my favorite Mt Diablo summit to understand what is so different about running a downhill race. So, I just wanted to try.

It was a good experience. Judging by results of some runners whom I know and who ran this race, if you run it with the same effort as a flatter race, you can expect 10-15 minutes improvement over your recent race time. Not guaranteed, of course, but if you don't blow up, you can hope for that kind of better time.

As always, running a marathon is always a challenge, whatever course is (unless you run it for site seeing). If you run it for time, then it's definitely challenging. When you think about this course and its 5000ft descent, you think, oh, no problem. But there are/were a few.

1st - miles 2 to 9 are rolling hills. You can only kind of see one of the hills on the elevation map (and that one is steeper and longer than Boston's Heartbreak hill), but in reality it goes up and down, up and down. Breaks your rhythm. I was constantly passed by many runners on the uphills, but was gaining back on the downhill parts. By mile 9 I was barely on sub 3 pace - my avg pace was 6:47.

2nd - after mile 9 it is all downhill (except flat mile 12 to 13) - felt great as I was ready for it (I did 3 11 miles road downhill runs from Mt Diablo to prepare for this race), but still, by mile 20-21, my cadence was not enough to continue a natural type of running, my quads still started to hurt and because of that I have to break a little bit, naturally, because you have to do that just not to fall. Running that much downhill still breaks your quads, even if you trained for this - at least it had that impact for me.

3rd - it was kind of hot, really. Even when we started from 7000ft high, even then it felt totally fine in a t-shirt. But by mile 17-18, when we were out in the direct sun, the high temps became pretty noticeable, but especially the direct sun. By finish time forecast was sying 76oF, but I was told it was 80+ at 9am and with no shade it was probably even hotter. Mid November I would expect something cooler, even for South California.

Other than that, it was fun. Pretty good organization, luxury buses to the top, good course marking. I would say there were way too few volunteers at the aid stations, especially at the beginning, when I missed drink at one of the station and then at the next one I have to stop to have a drink (because the only volunteer serving Bodyarmor drink was busy with other runners). Pretty scarce food selection at the finish, not terrible, but very limited and controlled . But overall still pretty uneventful. I was thinking at breaking my PR at some point before the race (do not worry Mikkey - I would never claim it as a PR) - but  after first 9 miles I knew there is no way I could do that. My finish time was 2:50:13 and it told me that I am still on that border between sub 3 and over sub 3 for a flatter marathon. So, I think I will just go for sub 3 at CIM - or at least I will go for sub 3 pace until mile 18 or so.

For all people who still think these downhill races are the easy ones - I urge you to try - just like I urge all the people who think CIM is a cheater's course to try it and discover a beauty of running an undulated course, not the course they imagine in their heads The same was here, at Big Bear - there is always something you have to experience before starting to bash it

Oh... I believe my finish time allows me to apply for Berlin's marathon guaranteed entry, avoiding lottery. They require a certified course time, but I checked USA TF and it is certified. I know Mikkey won't be able to that race - so, I have time to think until December 6th.

Jmac:  I’m sorry, that’s a bitter pill.

Cal: NZ course or no, it sounds far from easy, that’s a great run and experience to have had.  You are going to have quads of steel from all this hill work and likely surprise yourself at CIM.

Keen:  Cracking 10k, great pacing, congratulations!!!

DW: Good news there was no news from the neuro.  Do you supplement Magnesium? Sounds like a that causes all sorts or weird stuff if deficient.

JTR: Is only 71 really enough for you to start showing your face 

Sub 1:30:  Enjoy the cricket over there? It’s hard to like our team even as an Aussie, winning helps a bit. Then again I’d trade a dozen T20’s for one Test champ.

Mikkey: That performance by Stokes in the 50/50 WC final was nothing compared to what he did to level the 2019 Ashes series, that was one of the most devastating things I have witnessed. The Invincible sounds interesting, keen to hear how you find them.

The first part of my week was easy going after the time trial.  Finished by bagging another decent long run on Sunday and 102km/63mi for the week.

 

 

To be complete, he ordered a set of MRIs - brain, cervical spine, and thoracic spine.  So I get those in early December.  In the meantime, he suggested that this might be orthopedic - something's off somewhere and my body is basically in defense mode as a result.  So I'm going to follow up on that.

 

In the meantime, things do seem to be trending upwards, though I've still got a way to go.  This morning's long run was one of the best runs I've had in quite some time. 

 

I would really like to know what is going on, though, and how to prevent a repeat.

So it's like you blew a fuse and an internal surge protector is preventing you from doing more damage to yourself, or like my truck has "limp mode" where the truck can only go 45 mph until the code is cleared/fixed. I guess "no news is good news" still applies. Have you considered yoga/acupuncture/dry needling/alternative western treaments (whatever that is) yet?

cal I've always wondered with people who might have learned english as a second language, do your anger words come out in english, or the "native/first language" you learned? Typically I've been told "it's a mix" and I think the "really bad ones" are in a foreign language.

Keen WE STILL AREN'T SEEING YOUR CIM GOAL BEING POSTED. In. Case. You. Missed. It. YOU SPECIFICALLY are required to put a time with a +/- 2 minutes for CIM. How else will sandbagging be verified?

Downhill courses are easier because they're shorter. Didn't everyone know that? I always thought this is why everyone ran BOSTON CIM and had such amazing results, except for the one woman who authored a book about running marathons and was invited to CIM as a VIP in 2019.

My week:

OOF dah. Tried out the new Vaporfly Next% and they're pretty identical to the Zoom Fly from what I remember in 2019. They're fast and just FEEL fast. Almost like they're pushing me. The 10M was spur of the moment, and I changed the breathing to a 3-3 from a 2-2 during the run to see if it would help with a side stitch. The stitch held off until after mile 9, and at that point I knew I'd make it. Heck, I almost went 11+, but it was late at night, and I never told DW I was doing a workout. Thursday went well also with a 2x3 mile in some warmer weather. No speed shoes, and I picked this workout thinking "longer time at harder effort to help build up LT tolerance" vs a 3x2 mile workout. Oh and I was forced to stay home with both kids all week "due to covid 19 exposure" closing our daycare (horseshit if you ask me) so I was glad to get the workouts in. Saturday's long run ended with the traditional "overcaffinated bowel movement" I'd held for about 6 miles, and then I proceeded to roll my ankle at a trampoline park. Note to self: don't carry a 45 pound kid capable of walking down steps. Especially narrow ones with a steep drop. Ice/rest. The rest of the weekend, and yesterday was canceled due to having received my second COVID 19 shot, and that shit put me DOWN. muscle cramps, exhaustion, and "food poision like" symptoms for about 30 hours. Oh yeah, and a sore arm. THIS WEEK will be focused on M paced only, due to my youngest now having pink eye, and me just recovering from the shot. Not eating for 24-30 hours kind of sucks, and it sucks even more when on the border of marathon trianing. Obviously after my wonderful M paced workout I was thinking "well that's only 10 miles, not a full marathon." Counterinitiative since I've done this plan and it's worked every time with CIM.

Much less running overall than I wanted, and more "outdoor walking with toddlers." At this point the hay is starting to fill up the barn, and there wasn't a whole lot I could do. I got my three workouts in which I believe are more important overall than 70 mile weeks.

Weekly for period: From: 11/08/2021 To 11/14/2021

Total distance: 57.13mi

Keen Nice race report. I've always wondered why races start a 10k and a 5k together. I assume the kids with you at the start were doing the 5k. I've been smoked by plenty of middle school kids to know why ones I need to line up behind, so they can break up traffic ahead of me. Old man skills use other people to do more work. Any idea why the clock said 38:50 and you chipped at a much faster time? BLAZING FAST speed for this not being the target race, and you not doing a full taper for it. Also, glad you got the shoes you like and they obviously didn't give you any problems.

Keen - it's interesting you can't remember being so gassed after a race. How did your HR compare to other 10Ks? If it was higher than other races, and yet you didn't slow down at all, this may be a great learning for you: you can push harder than you think you can. Incredibly helpful for CIM when the going gets tough earlier than you want it to (which it will). Something we've talked about before with your training (your last MP run you couldn't get the effort to sub 3 yet your HR was too low).

RP -

No CIM goal yet  - I actually may not really set that until after the turkey trot.

JMac - This was actually only my 3rd 10k, and my HR was lower across the board for this one than my others. Average and max HR is highlighted below.

 

Only one more real workout before CIM!

I move we removed commanderkeen from the official record boards until he accepts a 2:57 or faster marathon target.

Interesting data on the watts. You tried the hardest on this 10k (obviously). You're heart rate was lower and pace was faster than one two months ago. I'd totally attribute it to fitness, and competition/shoes/keeping the racing edge sharp.