2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 421 times)

JMac11


Milkman

    I think there's a big difference between running 3x3 at GMP, vs. a standard 10-12 straight at MP. I can see running at GMP for those broken down workouts, as they're clearly much easier to do and act as a pace that's between MP and HMP. But nobody should be running something like a Pfitz-style 18 miles with 12 at GMP if their GMP is more than 5 seconds faster than current MP. Think about it: if your GMP is that much faster, you could probably only run at that pace in a race for maybe 20 miles. Running 12 straight at that pace would be very difficult if not impossible in the middle of a marathon cycle.

     

    I'm also not sure I buy the idea of learning the "mechanical" pace idea. I'll take myself as an example. In April, I was bored during my easy pace only running after only putting in a few hundred miles for the year at that point and decided to do 2 miles at "LT" pace. I was so out of shape that it was run at my GMP+20 seconds! If I had tried to run GMP at that point, it would have felt like a full on sprint. That isn't training my body anything. LT at 5:45 now feels exactly the same as that run at 6:15 then. I don't feel like I'm running faster at all, there's no real "mechanical" difference.

     

    Anyway as usual YMMV. But good discussion on this stuff.

     

    Flavio - that's a crazy good workout, can't imagine doing 6x1 mile at 10K pace. The 2:30 rest is substantial though so maybe that's what makes it possible. I really think you are underestimating the heat factor. I had to WALK in two different 16 mile long runs I did this summer at fairly slow paces. 2 weeks later I got an unusually cool morning and not only did I finish easily, I was able to gradually pick up the pace during the run. It's hard when you're in the middle of it to realize how badly heat impacts runs over 90 minutes, but it really can destroy all motivation. You are in the best shape I've seen in the 5 years I've been around here, don't let a couple bad workouts ruin that.

    5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

    Next Race: Unknown 

    JTReeves


      Flavio: Glad to hear your motivation is back. Your fitness looks really good based on that workout. Just hang in there and try to get in some long runs and sub 3 can happen.

       

      JMac: You must be aware of the incredible weather forecast for tomorrow morning? Where I am it will be 49-50 with a dew point of 46-47 around 6-7 AM!  I'm moving my long run to tomorrow morning to capitalize on this. I was planning on 22 with the last 6-8 at MP (GMP? ) but if I feel good may end up extending it to 10. I will use HR as my guide for the pace to make sure I'm in the correct range.

      2:52:16 (2018)

      JMac11


      Milkman

        JT - NYC is always so much warmer as you know (looks like low 60's here), but I actually do have a planned CURRENT MARATHON PACE workout planned this afternoon, where the temps are supposed to be upper 60s with dew points in the upper 40s. That weather is good enough that with heat acclimation I plan on taking no pace adjustment. I'm actually very excited to run it! I've been moving my workouts slowly upward so my last quality day is Monday and then I have 4 easy days before my 10K. It's like a mini-taper by giving myself so much rest. I like to use those race weeks as down weeks as well, which I take once every 4 weeks.

         

        I was going to message you here too: I noticed you didn't do a workout mid-week. Weather has been phenomenal so it's not that. Any reason for that?

        5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

         

        Next Race: Unknown 

        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

          Since I apparently just crossed the streams....

           

          here's a cut and paste of the brain droppings that I posted on the sub-1:30 thread that should have gone here.

           

          ***

           

          Other notes:  JTReeves - my comments about goal marathon pace actually were not directed at you, but rather at so many people throughout the years that I have trained with who seem to believe that if it's a "Marathon Pace" workout, and they can sustain a certain pace for that workout, then that pace is their "marathon pace."  If only it worked that way.

           

          Re: Marby's point on "which part of the marathon effort" - to me marathon effort is defined by the majority of the marathon - miles 6-20 ish. As for training for how hard things get at the end of a marathon?  I don't think running your marathon workouts too hard is how you prep for that.  I think doing some intervals and tempos and a race or two during your cycle is how you prep for that.

           

          Like Jmac, I don't buy into the importance of "marathon pace mechanics."  There's not that much difference, biomechanically, between 6:40 pace and 7:10 pace, for example.  (I think practicing the mechanics of race pace gets more important in the short stuff - mile and shorter).  And I've known a few people who have trained at a "marathon pace" that ended up somewhat slower than what they ran on race day.  One recent example is a woman on my team who ran 2:43 to OTQ back in 2019.  She did all of her marathon pace workouts with a friend of mine who was going for sub-3:00.  I don't think her "marathon pace" was ever faster than 6:40 during any workout.  And yet she ran 2:43 on race day.  (and no, that wasn't a surprise at all - she was a former Division 1 runner who was running with the OTQ as her goal).

           

          People keep thinking that it's better to err on the side of being a bit fast during marathon pace workouts.  When what I've seen time and time again is that it's better to err on the side of being a bit slow - you have much more room for error there, and less potential for damage.

           

          I think that locking in marathon pace effort (that rate of breathing, heart rate, rhythm, during the majority of the marathon) is much more important than practicing the mechanics of a certain running speed.

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          JTReeves


            JT - NYC is always so much warmer as you know (looks like low 60's here), but I actually do have a planned CURRENT MARATHON PACE workout planned this afternoon, where the temps are supposed to be upper 60s with dew points in the upper 40s. That weather is good enough that with heat acclimation I plan on taking no pace adjustment. I'm actually very excited to run it! I've been moving my workouts slowly upward so my last quality day is Monday and then I have 4 easy days before my 10K. It's like a mini-taper by giving myself so much rest. I like to use those race weeks as down weeks as well, which I take once every 4 weeks.

             

            I was going to message you here too: I noticed you didn't do a workout mid-week. Weather has been phenomenal so it's not that. Any reason for that?

             

            Dew point in the upper 40's, even if the temp is in the upper 60s is not bad, I agree, especially after this seemingly constant 3 months of high dew point weather. Good luck on the workout (maybe you're already done, I need to look at strava).

             

            I didn't do a mid-week workout for 2 reasons this week. Main reason was I got this pain on the top of my left foot, close to the ankle, somehow on Monday. I think it was when walking the dogs; the younger one nearly pulled my arm out of the socket and we were going downhill, and think I must have strained it trying to brake. Anyway, it was bothering me throughout Tuesday and I didn't think it would be ok by Wed morning. It did end up feeling ok by Wed but I opted to just do a moderate MLR and play it safe. Also factoring in was the fact that last Saturday was a big workout, and that I would be doing a big LR this weekend with Q in it, and as a general rule of thumb I like 7 days or so between workouts, especially if they're big-uns.

             

            Darkwave: Wise words. I'll be trying to implement that on my long run tomorrow, using HR as my guide.

            2:52:16 (2018)

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

              NYC peeps - quick question.

               

              I've heard that you now need to show proof of vaccination to enter establishments in NYC (i.e. Duane Reed, Chipotle).  If I show a picture of my vaccination card, is that good enough?

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              CalBears


                I’ve been guilty of running marathon pace rather than effort, recently, and don’t regret it a bit.

                 

                Aren’t there multiple marathon efforts anyway? If you are running an even pace, then the first third might feel different to the second third and almost certainly to the third third.  Isn’t there a place for running at each of those efforts in training? Longer blocks at just slower – yes please.  A medium-long block right on it – I’ll have that too thanks. Going for a goal pace that you aren’t quite ready for might be just the ticket for replicating late marathon effort.  Mechanically, that’s the pace you want your body to be able to handle even if the energy systems aren’t quite there yet. Treated with respect and in context of progression toward a goal, I’ll take a bit of that as well.

                 

                I do not see a problem running at a specific marathon pace for your MP workout. I have a lot of experience running MP workouts - I did at least two Advanced Hanson plans (and he has MP workout every Thursday - during the plan training you run 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10 miles 3 times each - total 15 MP workouts). I modified it when I was doing it second time, running 6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13 and 14 miles  2 times each. Plus, in many other cycles, when I didn't use a formal plan, I used MP workout in my training extremely often - 6-10 miles at MP. So, I can definitely chime in on that subject. The thing is - like everything in this life, whatever seems to be a simple matter is not that simple. For example, I was always being able to run a goal marathon at the pace (or faster) of my MP workouts. But... I was running 70-80-90 miles per week. And my belief - if you are able to hit goal MP paces when you are running 90 mpw, you are pretty much safe. My experience confirms that. Of course, if I were running 50 mpw, I would not be sure about that.

                 

                Next... From time to time I would start my MP workout and would not be able to hit a goal pace, or faded badly in 2-3 miles after I started. That was a time for an "effort" part of the MP workout. I would finish workout even if my pace 30 seconds slower than a pace I was running a week ago - I was just making sure my effort was there. There are some days like that.

                 

                Another note. Let's say my usual MP heart rate is 166-170. If I was able to keep goal MP pace during my workout but my HR was 172-176 (basically HM heart rate) - of course I can guarantee you would not be able to keep that pace during real marathon. That's why knowing your HR is so important in training and I still do not understand people who do not use HR as an additional marker during training.

                 

                One more note. Whoever is saying MP workouts are not much of a value - they are wrong. Wrong, based on my experience at least. All the time, you start doing MP workouts and you kind of struggle - first workout, second, third, but by the fourth, and later it's getting very familiar and kind of a norm, you are getting efficient (you can call it mechanically or whatever, I would call it "by feel" you feel normal - not easy but what you got used to). But, in my opinion, you are getting more and more efficient at the effort/pace of the workout which you do very often.

                 

                I definitely would add one more comment - that doing some more LT workouts and less MP workouts might be more beneficial for a faster marathon pace. Limiting yourself to MP workouts might limit your potential pace if you chose MP pace which might be an easier target. Doing LT work might probably expand your potential more than MP work, but with some caveats - LTs are much tougher and in my 10 years experience, LT work are much bigger risk for an injury (I just got my first one this year - after LT workout I have some hamstring pain that made me eliminate my faster runs and stick to easy running). So, I would say MP is a kind of a safer (but again, probably - more limiting) choice.

                paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                JMac11


                Milkman

                  NYC peeps - quick question.

                   

                  I've heard that you now need to show proof of vaccination to enter establishments in NYC (i.e. Duane Reed, Chipotle).  If I show a picture of my vaccination card, is that good enough?

                   

                  You don't need your vaccination card for places like that. You only need them if you're planning on dining indoors, going to a museum, etc. But drug stores, picking up food to go, etc you're good with just a mask (and even masks are limited but definitely bring one).

                   

                  Either way, a picture ofy our vaccine card is enough for those other places (with picture ID)

                  5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Unknown 

                    NYC peeps - quick question.

                     

                    I've heard that you now need to show proof of vaccination to enter establishments in NYC (i.e. Duane Reed, Chipotle).  If I show a picture of my vaccination card, is that good enough?

                     

                    You also need vaccine proof to get into gyms. (I recall you used to shower and change at some gym in NYC?)

                    flavio1980


                    Intl. correspondent

                      Jmac - not sure I've asked before but have you gone already to the Vietnamese place show below the main character's apartment in Mr Robot?

                       

                      Jmac/JT -

                      First of all, are you neighbors?

                      no no my motivation continues to be too high. It's that on Sunday my cervical injury had popped back in full strength and I was thinking if maybe I could be causing permanent damage to my spine. That's why I was thinking of quitting.

                      But then Monday came, the injury faded again, and the dark thoughts quickly have gone away.

                      The injury is still here, it bothers me everyday, sometimes it's pain in the neck,
                      sometimes lower along the upper spine erector, as if somebody clipped my upper spine.

                      Sometimes I again have that weird feeling similar to dizziness which I've learned is not really dizziness as I'm not disoriented or nauseous, its actually the muscles on the side of my neck that get incredibly tight.

                      The PT I went to the other day was shocked at how limited I am right now in moving my head side to side. Like look at your 3pm then look at your 9pm. I can at most look at 2 on the one side and at 10 on the other.

                      It's slowly fading away though, like it gets better 1% every day.

                      I just weighed 77.6kg roughly 171lbs, lighter than this only in my teenager years.

                       

                      RP - just a sore arm really, mostly from being sticked in the arm with a syringe LOL

                      It's a 2 shot vax (moderna). It's 2 shots cause the shot flips your sexual orientation so the 2nd shot puts you back.

                      If I make comments about Piwi's good looking quads it's the vaccine talking, OK 😁

                      PRs: 1500 4:51 2019 - 5K 17:56 2021 HM 1:21:59 2021

                      Up next: Rest and recover

                      Tool to generate Strava weekly

                      JTReeves


                        Darkwave: Good luck in the mile!

                         

                         

                         RP - just a sore arm really, mostly from being sticked in the arm with a syringe LOL

                        It's a 2 shot vax (moderna). It's 2 shots cause the shot flips your sexual orientation so the 2nd shot puts you back.

                        If I make comments about Piwi's good looking quads it's the vaccine talking, OK 😁

                         

                         It would not be surprising if there is a contingent of people who really believe this.

                         

                        Flavio: Sorry to hear about the persistent back/neck issues. I hope the recovery accelerates from 1% better per day! JMac and I are not really neighbors, not even in the same state, but relatively close for this thread. I'm about 80 miles/130 km north of him. As a result I get a slightly cooler version of the weather he gets; also because I'm in the woods whereas he is in the heart of the city.

                        2:52:16 (2018)

                        Marby


                          I think there's a big difference between running 3x3 at GMP, vs. a standard 10-12 straight at MP. I can see running at GMP for those broken down workouts, as they're clearly much easier to do and act as a pace that's between MP and HMP. But nobody should be running something like a Pfitz-style 18 miles with 12 at GMP if their GMP is more than 5 seconds faster than current MP. Think about it: if your GMP is that much faster, you could probably only run at that pace in a race for maybe 20 miles. Running 12 straight at that pace would be very difficult if not impossible in the middle of a marathon cycle.

                           

                           

                          Yeah, the mechanical stuff was a bit of a stretch and I'm in agreement on most of this. I did say with respect and in context. It might be different at your paces but for me, running 8 straight 10-15 seconds faster than current MP is achievable.

                           

                           

                          People keep thinking that it's better to err on the side of being a bit fast during marathon pace workouts.  When what I've seen time and time again is that it's better to err on the side of being a bit slow - you have much more room for error there, and less potential for damage.

                           

                          A bit more room for error is fair comment.  I don't necessarily think faster is better.  Just that it's no worse and increased risk of damage bugger all with a bit of self-knowledge and common sense.  If the pace feels too hot or you have an eye on HR and that goes high, ease off.

                           

                          Just reckon the benefit that comes from work at marathon specific paces isn't limited to a one pace or feel, it's a spectrum.

                          10K 41:35 (2016), Half 1:27:01 (2015) Marathon 3:02:48 (2015)

                          JMac11


                          Milkman

                            Will address some of these MP points later but wanted to wish DW good luck tomorrow in her race!

                            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:00 (10/21)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: Unknown 

                            Marby


                              Good luck DW!

                               

                              I'm feeling fresh after some easier weeks and ready to take on a 12 week block, December 5th hasn't been confirmed yet but seems the most likely.

                              09/06/2021 To 09/12/2021

                              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                              in ft
                              09/06 Morning Run 4.99 8.03 00:43:20 08:41 05:24 187
                              09/06 Jog with Jackson 1.74 2.81 00:18:09 10:26 06:28 56
                              09/07 Morning Run 9.35 15.05 01:16:01 08:08 05:03 322
                              09/07 Jog with Luca 1.38 2.21 00:12:14 08:52 05:32 33
                              09/08 Morning Run 6.00 9.66 00:50:51 08:29 05:16 154
                              09/08 Jog with Georgia 1.00 1.60 00:12:48 12:48 08:00 23
                              09/09 Morning Run 7.61 12.25 01:04:29 08:28 05:16 364
                              09/10 10x600 9.34 15.03 01:11:39 07:40 04:46 220
                              09/11 Lunch Run 4.37 7.04 00:35:15 08:04 05:00 92
                              09/12 WOOF WOOF!!! 14.92 24.01 01:59:36 08:01 04:59 620

                              Total distance: 60.72mi

                              10K 41:35 (2016), Half 1:27:01 (2015) Marathon 3:02:48 (2015)

                              Running Problem


                              Problem Child

                                RP - just a sore arm really, mostly from being sticked in the arm with a syringe LOL

                                It's a 2 shot vax (moderna). It's 2 shots cause the shot flips your sexual orientation so the 2nd shot puts you back.

                                If I make comments about Piwi's good looking quads it's the vaccine talking, OK 😁

                                 

                                THIS is signature worthy.  

                                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                                VDOT 51

                                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:59:10