2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 616 times)

    Brew: Welcome! I'll add you to the table for CIM. So is the goal just to BQ or do you have a specific time goal (sub 3?). Looking briefly at your past few weeks, a couple of things stand out. The first was 3 hard workouts this week... admittedly I am on the low end, usually getting 0-1 hard workouts per week during a cycle but 3 seems too much. Everyone absorbs training differently but just make sure you aren't leaving your race in your training. The other thing that stood out (and I saw JMac scolded you for it) was the easy pace, looks a bit too fast. But your workouts definitely point towards sub 3 fitness. I think you can do it as long as you get to the start healthy and not burned out.

     

    Regarding the long run...I personally feel it is important to have at least a few long runs that last as long (timewise) as your marathon will take. Comfortable pace, but for that amount of time. Builds up strength of everything; bone, tendons, ligaments, muscles), increases capillarization, and builds mental fortitude and confidence. To me the Hansons logic on long runs (and a lot of other things) is all wrong, but then again I got injured after a cycle of 20-22 milers most weekends.   I'm sure you'll get a lot of opinions/feedback here.

    5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

    Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

    Brewing Runner


    CIM FanBoi

      JT: the three hard workouts was a mistake. I let my run group get the better of me Monday. Wednesday’s fast run was the same thing. I’m paying for that much work right now as I have some tight inner groin muscle pain I’ve never had. Maybe psoriasis and some stretching will help. Goal is Boston 2021. JMac said Sub 3 so I am training as though my ticket to Boston 2021 is a BQ-5 so I can register early or at least not have to wait 9 months to see if maybe I made the cutoff. April I was aiming for 7:00 pace which would have put me about 3:03:30 and that would have been 10 seconds two slow and I’d have felt confident until registration that I was going since times were just increased last October.

       

       

      Im thinking 18+ this weekend. 2.5 hours of running. I get what you’re saying about building all those muscles for the long duration. Hanson’s just said 20-30% and wrote their plan to peak at 64ish miles. Their plan might be for people looking to get better after a few cycles of 40 miles per week for a marathon.

       

       

      EDIT: I MAY HAVE gone too hard last night (2 E + 9M + 1.75E) on my M pace at a 6:45 instead of a 6:50 which might not have helped the tightness. My personal goal was closer to a 6:48-6:53 range and I'll admit I didn't put 100% effort into slowing down the workout to stick to that pace. This week has kind of been a hot mess.

      1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

      5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

      10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

      Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

      Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

      Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

      *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

       

      2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

       

      jayluf


        Brew - Welcome. I love how you name each Strava entry as a Friends episode. Everything should be effort based (in my opinion). Try not to worry about paces. At all. There are so many variables that contribute to a given workout, long run, easy run, etc. You will receive the same stimulus (or very close) if you focus purely on the approximate effort the workout calls for. It can't be overstated enough how important ensuring easy runs are truly run at easy effort... remember EZ MILES R SEXY TOO 

         

        DW - Hope you're recovering well...


        Elite Jogger

           

          DW - Hope you're recovering well...

           

          +1

           

          Brew - Welcome!  I’m not familiar with Hansons and never peaked at a 16 mile LR, so I’ll probably not be much help to you. I did actually take 5 Maurten gels at London this year and it was the first time I properly focused on fueling during a race. But I’ve got no idea how much that helped time wise.

          5k - 17:53 (2019)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:23:18 (2019)   Full - 2:50:43 (2019)


          Yak-3 vs Spitfire

            Brew - I actually trained using Hansons key workouts (I think for 3 cycles) and liked it, especially, first two times. Before I used it first time, I was excited with the approach of running 6-10 miles @MP pace for 10 or 11 weeks. When I started to run, I also didn't think I would be able to run sub 3 one day and was kind of struggling wit MP workouts. Hansons changed everything - I used Hansons for the first time when I was training for sub 3 marathon in LA in 2013. It worked out perfectly - I just checked my Strava account and saw that I ran first MP workouts at 6:50 and my HR was around 170 (which is close to unsustainable for me for a marathon distance). But the last few MP workouts (10 and 11 miles) I ran 6:45 pace and my HR was 155 - it's kind of amazing. MP pace became my second nature. The only thing I should mention is that I never bought into Hansons 16 miles long run. I had around 5 or so 21 milers and I believe in longer long runs. I am not a running scientist, so I cannot tell you what percent of improvement you will get after longer LRs but I just do not believe that 16 is enough. Hansons was good, but I stopped using it after 3rd cycle - I think at some point you become really good at MP pace but you stop progressing at anything faster. That was my impression. But also, after few years at using different approaches, I am planning at returning to Hansons for my next marathon cycle - because at this point I am not concerned at anything faster than MP pace, I need to get my MP pace in order Smile And sure I will be doing 20-22 miles workouts too.

             

            As for you getting sub 3 - I think you should be more confident running CIM - your mileage is great, your workout paces are great - I do not see why you cannot run sub 3. Just do not go too fast from the start - I would pace evenly for the whole course (though it is my general approach for all the marathons I ran). Good luck!

            JMac11


            Benevolent Leader

              Mikkey - we know the VF helped, but I do wonder how much properly fueling actually helped you as well. I cannot believe you’ve run 40 marathons or w/e crazy number it is without properly fueling. I absolutely love Maurten gels as someone with a sensitive stomach and I can’t imagine ever going back to something else. They’re so easy to take down, considering going up to 5 gels myself for CIM.

               

              Hansons - I know I’m a Daniels fan boy, but I see the merits in a lot of other groups except for Hansons. I cannot imagine running MP every week, seems like you’re just learning how to pace yourself (which is important) with no other benefit. It feels like a good plan for people who constantly run too fast to start a marathon, or for beginners. If you’ve already run a few marathons, I can’t see how their plan is optimal. I do agree in general that amateurs run too many long runs for too many miles. I’m a strongly believe in 2.5 hours being the optimal long run time, with up to 3 hours if you feel you REALLY need it. Anything more than that is just risking injury with no true benefit for the marathon.

               

              More people would benefit from more miles per week OR more lactate threshold work.

               

              DW - I was thinking during my run today about your situation, because I’m known on this board as the guy who always runs into taper troubles (some real, some phantom). 2 years ago, my foot hurt so badly I went to a podiatrist who told me I had a fracture just 2 days before the NYCM. I didn’t buy the diagnosis and ran anyway. I’ve also gotten a bad cold during one of my tapers, and a weird case of metatarsalgia that popped up 5 days before my last NYCM. But yours takes the cake because it’s serious.

               

              I’m seriously hopeful this is just one of those stories you get to tell in the future: “oh so you think you have taper tantrums? Well I was HIT BY A TRUCK during my taper.” Really hope that the soreness is dying down and we get to see you get at it next weekend!

              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

               

              Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)


              Yak-3 vs Spitfire

                 

                Hansons - I know I’m a Daniels fan boy, but I see the merits in a lot of other groups except for Hansons. I cannot imagine running MP every week, seems like you’re just learning how to pace yourself (which is important) with no other benefit. It feels like a good plan for people who constantly run too fast to start a marathon, or for beginners. If you’ve already run a few marathons, I can’t see how their plan is optimal. I do agree in general that amateurs run too many long runs for too many miles. I’m a strongly believe in 2.5 hours being the optimal long run time, with up to 3 hours if you feel you REALLY need it. Anything more than that is just risking injury with no true benefit for the marathon.

                 

                More people would benefit from more miles per week OR more lactate threshold work.

                  

                Well JMac....  You can say all you want about benefits or non benefits but I went from 3:06 marathon time to 2:50 in less than 2 years using modified Hansons - my LRs were real LRs, not Hansons ones. Hansons plan has MP runs on Thursday but it also has speedier workouts on Tuesdays - some 400, 800, 1200s at the beginning and then 6x1, 4x1.5, 3x2 and 2x3 every week together with MP runs on Thursdays. You supposed to run those speedier runs about 15 seconds faster than MP pace if I remember correctly. In any case, learning to pace properly for a marathon is a big part of a marathon success - plus you can definitely progress running MP workouts - because MP pace is just a number and can be modified if you see you are better than your thought. It's not made in stone. I definitely love Hansons for its simplicity mostly, so, do not dare speak about it in a negative tone Smile Plus, I tried Daniels twice, I think it's way too hard for most of the runners. So, I do not touch it anymore... And not planning to... So, no more negativity Smile

                Swim5599


                  I feel like I get a lot out of MP runs.  No better way to mimic the actual marathon then hitting MP two plus hours into an LR.  

                  my week 106 total

                  mon 10 8:33

                  tue AM 12.75 with 8x5:00 at T power (5:40)

                   Pm 10 with 5 mile tempo at  HMP power  (6:03)

                  wed 10 8:30

                  thurs 10 with strides 8:30

                  fri am 12.25 with 5x8:30 just over T power (5:50)

                  Pm 10 with 5 mile tempo at HMP power (6:00)

                  sat 7 8:38

                  sun 24 as 82 min E then 2x40:00 at MP power (6:14)

                   

                  good week.  The LR felt like a walk in the park.

                  HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                  Andres1045


                    Brew - Welcome. I'm another in the "extend the long run" group. Like Cal, I really enjoyed the Hansons plan. It's the only plan that I actually followed. I had run many marathons, all on basically no training, just to do them. Then in 2014 decided to take running seriously. I improved my 10k time from 41min to 37:14 in the first 9 weeks of the Hansons plan. I stuck with their 16 mile long runs, and it didn't go great. Every runner is different, but I think most need longer runs. I certainly do. For a 3 hour marathon, I think it's quite helpful to be able to run 2:30-2:40 at a reasonable effort, but that's quite rough if you're keeping all the other stuff in there that Hansons has. I like to think that all of my training since that first real cycle has been Hansons-like training. I treat the long run as a workout, usually wanting to have big chunks of it at something approaching marathon pace. So it may be 3-4 easy, then the last 15-16 miles working down from MP+30s to MP (or +10s). Nothing overly structured, just aim to be working hard for a the majority of the run. To do that, though, I usually only have one other harder day in the week, if any.  I'm with Cal: I like the simplicity of Hansons. I find the Daniels stuff unnecessarily complicated that leads to injuries as often as it does improving the runner.

                     

                    With all that said, you're probably too deep in now to change much. Sure, you could add in an 18 to 20 miler, but otherwise I'd probably stick to the plan. See how it goes, then adjust at the next race. You have time, although with all those miles, you've got a great shot of getting to sub 3 now.

                     

                    My week:

                     

                    M - 8.29 @ 8:11

                    T- 8.23 @ 7:07 with 5 around 6:35

                    W - 8.32 @ 8:04

                    T - 9.1 @ 6:55 with 6 going from 6:30 down to 6:10

                    F - 18.57 @ 7:17

                    S - 8 @ 8:26

                    S - 4.23 @ 8:41

                    64.7 total

                     

                    I was happy with the week overall, but I wanted a longer tempo/mp run in there. Tuesday I ended up going a little shorter and slower than I wanted, and so I joined some guys Thursday for a progressive 6 miler. The next two weeks I might try to get some 10k workouts in, and then get back to marathon stuff at the beginning of December.

                    Upcoming races: Jean Bouin 10k Nov 24 - Barcelona

                                                Houston Full January 2020

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                      MP Work:   I actually like it and do a fair bit of it each week - either the last 3rd of a progression long run, or a bigger block of MP within a shorter long run.  But that may also just be another example of differing physiologies.  I respond well to stuff between MP and LT; and not all that well to volume past a certain point.  But...we're all different.  I agree that most runners need to be sure to include something faster than MP on a regular basis.

                       

                      Swim - interesting combo of a very long long run (24 miles) and a good chunk of MP work in the middle.  Big day.

                       

                      Andres - even without the extended tempo/MP work, that was a solid week.

                       

                      ****

                       

                      My somewhat unorthodox week.

                       

                      23 miles, 500 yards recovery swimming, 60 minutes of pool-running, 2 hours of elliptical/arc-training, and a buncha rehab exercises.
                      M: DIY yoga and 60 minutes pool-running.
                      T: 7 miles, including a track workout of 3x800 in 2:58, 2:54, 2:52. Recoveries of 2:13 and 2:28. Followed with 500 yards recovery swimming.
                      W: 3.5 miles very easy (8:54) with an abrupt ending. X-rays.
                      Th: Off, except for more x-rays and some rehab exercises
                      F: 60 minutes on the arc-trainer, including 4x3:00 hard with 1:00 recovery - mostly with arms clasped in front of me. Also some careful leg strengthwork.
                      Sa: 2.5 miles very easy (8:43) and then 60 minutes on the elliptical at easy run effort with arms resting on handles.
                      Su: 10 miles - first 5 averaging 8:19, second 5 averaging 7:08. Then some careful leg strengthwork.

                       

                      Shoulder seems like it will probably hold up for a marathon next Saturday.  I just need to be cleared by the doctor now.  Have messaged the race to ask if some of the water stations will be on the right side, as it's going to be challenging to navigate a water station to my left.

                       

                      Independent of the shoulder, the Sunday redux of my last pre-marathon-not-so-long-run felt so-so.  I felt great at times, and stiff and drained at others.  I'm thinking that part of it is just the stress of the past week and part my body being tired from all the healing it's doing.  Doing the arc-trainer/elliptical stuff was probably also hard enough to create a slightly different stress and make me achy in new muscles.

                       

                      [if you're wondering why I did 4x3:00 hard on Friday on the arc-trainer, it was because I get very flat if I don't do SOMETHING at least semi-hard every few days.  Doing 4x3:00 was an attempt to keep the fire going, but not do so much I dug a hole.

                       

                      If I'm going to race Richmond well on Saturday, I really need to be topping off the resources this week.  I don't need to feel great now; I do need to feel great in 6 days.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.


                      Yak-3 vs Spitfire

                         

                        JT - I think you’re right about Cal and Vaporflys. It could be the difference between a 3:03 and a 2:59. 😁. Should we start a crowdfunding appeal for him???  #CalneedsapairofVaporflys

                         

                        I am thinking about it actually - mostly curious if it will have an effect on my finish time. At some point I will have to check that - maybe will try at CIM but I a hesitant after you said I might run sub 3 in them and it will be because of shoes. I know that they do not work for all the same way, but it's hard to say Vaporflys are not working - I saw some interesting PRs streaks for people in their 50s after they already run for more than 10 years - for example kayry (John) had all his PRs in marathon and HM set as he was like 52 yo. He even won his AG in Boston running in VFs. So, if Mikkey is going to use it, I am going to use it too if it helps me, but I need to check that Smile


                        Yak-3 vs Spitfire

                          Andres - great week, you went long way from that sub 3 in Boston. I would recommend PFitz plan at some point if you are already comfortable with Hansons - it's not too complicated as Daniels but I believe it will help you to move to the next level - it helped me. Yeah, looks like it was not you in Boston at the hills, there was another guy who I think ran his first sub 3 that year, he was at RWOL but now when we do not have that forum anymore, I cannot remember his name.

                           

                          Swim - man, your training is just so solid. Hope you will translate it to great result at CIM.

                           

                          DW - great news on speedy recovery. Though I am still not sure why you still want to run a marathon. But you know better, of course.

                           

                          My week was kind of strange... After my HM last Sunday which I ran in Nike Flyknit, I developed some painful spot at the bottom of left foot which was really painful to run even at recover pace on Monday. So, I skipped Tuesday. Then on Thursday morning I discovered in the morning that our heater is not working, so, I was fixing it from 5 till 7 am Smile and in between only managed to run 3 miles at TM (instead of 12). So, I was pretty rested for my speedy 6 miles session on Saturday. And then I just decided to run longer LR on Sunday on really heavy legs. But, all in all I feel good about this week. 4 more weeks till CIM

                           

                          Mon - 5 @recovery (9:20)

                          Tue - off

                          Wed - 12.5 @GA (8:43)

                          Thu - 3 @recovery (9:25)

                          Fri - 6.5 @GA (8:18)

                          Sat - 12.2 with 6 @LT (6:21,6:38.6:39,6:43,6:25,6:07)

                          Sun - 22.5 @endurance (8:26)

                           

                          Total: 61.8 miles


                          Elite Jogger

                             

                            I am thinking about it actually - mostly curious if it will have an effect on my finish time. At some point I will have to check that - maybe will try at CIM but I a hesitant after you said I might run sub 3 in them and it will be because of shoes. I know that they do not work for all the same way, but it's hard to say Vaporflys are not working - I saw some interesting PRs streaks for people in their 50s after they already run for more than 10 years - for example kayry (John) had all his PRs in marathon and HM set as he was like 52 yo. He even won his AG in Boston running in VFs. So, if Mikkey is going to use it, I am going to use it too if it helps me, but I need to check that Smile

                             

                            Well I ran a 37sec PR at London this year in the VF 4% on a less than perfect training cycle and I don’t know of anyone who hasn’t benefited from them!  I don’t have the upgrade Next% which are slightly different (you can google the comparisons). If you like Hokas, they have a carbon plated shoe (Carbon X) which I believe are cheaper and more cushioned/durable than the VFs...but maybe not as fast!

                            5k - 17:53 (2019)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:23:18 (2019)   Full - 2:50:43 (2019)

                            JMac11


                            Benevolent Leader

                              Swim - I really think you're a glutton for very difficult running. After saying Daniels was too ridiculous with that 24M run (which I still don't know if is actually in his plan or not), I see how much quality you run now. It's crazy! People on here talk about how Daniels sets them up for injury, but your training would leave me absolutely fried. I can't see how you run not only quality runs back to back, but in the same day.

                               

                              Cal/Mikkey - If you aren't running in the VF at this point, you're just a stubborn fool. We spend so much money on entry fees, so much TIME on trying to gain a few seconds here and there, when the VF is just sitting right there for the taking. Cal, once you buy a pair, you'll wonder what took you so long.

                               

                              Also Cal, good week. Back to back LT with long run is very impressive!

                               

                              DW - I like your description of it being an "abrupt ending." I know you run on feel, so I'm not even going to ask if you're adjusting your goal pace. I think you'll bounce back just fine, you probably felt awful on those runs from your schedule being all messed up. If you can get to a more normal "taper" week this week, you'll be good to go race day.

                               

                              Andres - as I keep saying, great consistency. What's your 12 week average looking like for MPW? I use that as a helpful gauge to see how I'm doing, and I'm wondering if you're now sitting at a level you haven't been for a while. It must be 60 or so, right?

                               

                              Me - This was the week that told me 2:3X is a go for CIM. First, it was my longest week ever, so hitting big workouts was a huge confidence booster in the middle of it. I hit a good TLT workout on Wednesday, the most important part of which was that I was hitting a solid Easy pace in the 7:0X range. More importantly though, I was able to go for 14 @ MP right around 6:00 pace. It was one of those training runs where everything went right. The whole time I was working hard to slow myself down as I was trying to hit 6:00-6:05 but kept coming in at 5:XX. The other great thing about this run was that I wasn't spent at the end of 14. I was able to run the last mile relatively quickly, and could have gone for another 2 easily and potentially 4 more.

                               

                              I don't know what to do for race day now. I think I'm going to try to run it exactly I did this one: try to keep it between 6:00-6:05 and if it creeps higher, just take the gas off the pedal a little bit. I don't think I'll be shooting for sub 6:00 on race day.

                               

                              Oh yeah: near the end of the run I was thinking "JT is going to have a field day with this one" given I was running almost exactly the pace he thinks I will the day of.

                               

                              Now it's just time to get one more good week in, then get through the taper without any issues.

                               

                               

                              Day Miles Description
                              Mon 7.0 Recovery
                              Tue 11.5 EZ + Strides
                              Wed 18.0 1E + 3T + 10E + 3T + 1E (T around 5:38)
                              Thu 7.0 Recovery
                              Fri 11.5 EZ
                              Sat 9.0 EZ + Strides
                              Sun 18.0 2E + 14M (5:58) + 2E
                              Total 82.0  

                              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                               

                              Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                              jayluf


                                JMac - Awesome week. You're definitely in sub 240 shape. Probably closer to 237.

                                Cal - Very nice week bouncing back after your HM last Sunday.

                                DW - Six days is a long way, sounds like you are progressing nicely with the recovery. Completely different circumstances, but I have an urge to dig into the data behind everyone who was scheduled to run NYC when it was cancelled because of Sandy and see how their delayed marathon performances the week of two after ended up being. My hypothesis is time goals were met at a higher success rate.

                                Andres - Appears you've got solid fitness to have quality LR day after that progression effort. Hopefully will get to meet you in person at Houston.

                                Swim - That's a great week. CIM looking very promising.

                                 

                                My week:

                                Had a solid week coming off the half PR last Sunday. Was very pleased with my effort at Thursday's workout. Legs felt heavy / tired during weekend mileage. Looking at two big weeks ahead. This will be my first CIM; from everything I've heard/read it sounds like a course that's suited to my strengths. That's getting me pretty excited!

                                 

                                Day Miles Description
                                Mon 0.0 Rest & Recovery
                                Tue 8.0 Easy @ 807
                                Wed 8.0 Easy @ 754 w/ 4 x 30s
                                Thu 13.1 Workout - 3.3 easy, 8 x 3 min moderate / 3min easy, 4 x 30s hills, 4.0 easy
                                Fri 6.0 Easy @ 906
                                Sat 16.0 Long run @ 722 - mostly easy effort, pushing some small climbs middle miles
                                Sun 10.0 Easy @ 857
                                Total 61.3