2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread (Read 449 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    54 miles running, 2:40 hours pool-running, and 1000 yards swimming.

    M: 80 minutes pool-running and streaming yoga.
    T: 11 miles, including at track workout of 2x1200, 3x800, 400 in 5:38, 5:26, 3:24, 3:17, 3:15, and 93. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
    W: 8.5 miles (9:25 pace) with 4x200 in 45, 46, 45, 44.
    Th: 80 minutes pool-running and upper body weights/core.
    F: 10 miles with 3200, 1600 in 13:29 (6:55/6:34) and 6:27.
    Followed with leg strengthwork.
    Sa: 10 very easy (9:18) plus drills, 4 strides, streaming yoga.
    Su: 14 miles progressive, split as first 4.5 miles averaging 9:15 pace, next 5 miles averaging 8:15 pace, and next 4.5 miles averaging 7:01 pace, followed with cooldown jog to make 14.5, and then leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.

     

    Tuesday's workout was ridiculous and comic. It was before dawn, and I felt really wobbly and couldn't quite tell where my feet were on the track (it felt like the track was a bosu ball).  I wanted to see how stuff would go if I just stayed relaxed and ran the whole workout, regardless of how slow it went. So I did, and got the splits you see above. Yes - I did my first 1200m at 7:30 pace, and it felt HARD. It was ridiculous.

     

    After that, I decided I wasn't doing Columbus Half this weekend. I contacted my primary care doctor, and scheduled an appointment for this coming Tuesday. I also went and got blood drawn on Friday. That's where things get interesting.

     

    I'm on several different dietary supplements - all prescribed by doctors. I did not take any of them on Friday, because I was getting blood drawn. And...that afternoon the muscle twitches were gone, and the balance issues/vision was considerably improved.

     

    So on Saturday I decided to experiment, and took only the B-vitamin supplement (which doesn't have crazy levels of anything). And...all the symptoms came back - non-stop muscle twitches in my legs, spacey feeling in my head. Only to be gone by Sunday morning.  I still feel a bit wobbly, but significantly better.

     

    I'm thinking this may be a step in figuring out what's going on, though obviously I don't have answers yet. It will interesting to see what my primary care doc says on Tuesday. 

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    dpschumacher


    37 going on 60

      Main part was it was further out from Grandma's than Twin Cities by giving me more weeks. And it was only an hour away.

      JHudak - My vote would be for something at HMP - maybe 2x3 miles?  I feel like you've done plenty at marathon and plenty of mileage, but not too much faster.  And it's good to get something just a bit faster than MP in.  I'll confess I haven't done a full review of your training, though, so perhaps I'm missing something.

       

      DPS - Great race report (and great paragraph spacing).  That course honestly sounds like not that much fun, and like there are better marathon choices in the future.

       

      Marby - interesting choice doing 500m repeats - don't think I've seen that one before Smile

       

      Mikkey - congrats on ripping the racing bandaid off.  Negative splitting in your first one back is pretty slick Smile

       

      Calbears - I think I missed congratulating you for Boston.  I know it wasn't what you wanted, but it is another one in the bag, with more experience and lessons learned.

       

      2021 Goals for my 2 marathon cycles this year

      Marathon Sub 2:40 2:39:27 Grandma's Marathon 6/19/21

      10k Sub 35:00 in Marathon build

      5k Sub 16:30 in Marathon build /16:34 BK5K Memorial Day 2021

       

      2022 Goals

      Marathon Sub 2:37 2:41:32 Grandma's 2022

      10k Sub 35:00

      5k Sub 16:00

      CalBears


        I was thinking about trail running today when I was running there and I think there is a huge plus running them. What is the plus? Effort and heart rate. Yes, you might run slowly, especially uphill - like, 15:00 pace (at 500ft per mile ascent), but your heart rate is at MP level and goes on for an hour or so. That's kind of pain/effort tolerance we all need for our marathons. Yes, I will suffer for the next 2-3 days after running 6.5 miles, 3500+ ascent trail, but if I run that route couple of times more, I will be totally fine after 3rd or 4th one. Seriously, that was a hard effort at laughable pace, but I saw I quite a few of those runs back in the summer of 2015, before I started my dream training cycle and PR-ed.

         

        DW - thanks! You are right, I actually got something out of even this race. I finally realized that I like the course. Together with the history and crowd support it makes it hard to pass on. I think it's a little bit more complicated than CIM, course profile wise, but I also believe that with good weather and good training cycle it is a really fast course. But again, pacing is more complicated than CIM where up and down stretches are almost 1 to 1, so, you are putting a little bit more efforts on uphills and a little bit relaxing on downhills. So, yes, I think I will pass on 2022, bit probably will be back to Boston 2023.

         

        Your health situation looks absolutely horrifying. I can't read stuff you are sharing with us - it's way to hard for my psyche Sad Hope you figure it out and fix it once and forever - so, I would sleep well from that moment on...

         

        jhudak - as I mentioned on Strava, I think you are ready. Also, doesn't matter what you will be doing from now on (you are asking about smarter workouts during these 3 last weeks) - whatever you do, you already 99% did what you could do, just get there healthy and fresh.

         

        Marby - you are doing good too!

        paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

        Running Problem


        Problem Child

          Cal I think you're correct about trails. At least in the West. Some places have 'trails' comparable to a dirt road on rolling hills. I think an added benefit of trails is gaining confidence in foot placement. Having run trails where the surface you land on might move I've learned to expect it. I've had to learn to be confident in my foot placement, and this has helped me on roads run on snow/ice as well as piles of slick leaves. Some might say it is the same. For me, learning how to be fast and confident on loose terrain has helped me on roads.

           

          Dwave hopefully the doctor is able to use your self experiment moving moving forward.

           

          Marby your marathon training seems to be going great. The long run with 8 or 9 miles at M pace at the end was mind blowing. I'm not sure I'd have the mental control for a 10+ mile warm up.

           

          DPS interesting view on the smaller races. Having just raced a 10k where I ran into HM traffic I understand your distaste for weaving through people. Perhaps, as JMac said, a pace bike would help slower runners know. I think slower runners tell themselves "I'll stay here, they can go around me, because I don't want to get in THEIR way, and they're going MUCH faster."

           

          My week

          Hit my goal of 70 miles. Did a "bonus" mile on Thursday at Marathon pace. It is a loop, and Miles 4 and 8 are mentally tough because it's uphill for about half, and I always have to keep pushing through. I did it at much warmer temps than Tuesday's workout. Tuesday's workout just had such a low heart rate it was scary. Either I'm in such great shape 6:40/mi for a marathon is possible, or the weather was keeping me comfortable so the body only had to work on running not cooling AND running. Wednesday, I helped "pace" a friend who constantly tells me how the pace is wrong according to his instant pace. I rememeber him saying HIS plan for 2020 CIM was for ME to pace him. Knowing him, and having done this run, I'd honestly either walk off course and tell him "you know what you're doing. You don't need me." or speed up without saying anything other than "Don't blame me for you blowing up. You had the pace right there and knew I was going too fast yet you decided to stay with me. Run your own race."

          Sunday, I decided to run uphill for at least 3.5 miles, then continue on dirt for the full 4 miles of uphill. I realized I'm running a lot of flats, and typically I'd run a variety of hills and flats. I ASSUME 70 miles a week is enough to counteract the hills of CIM, while at the same time knowing I'm avoiding hills. I might have done something wrong coming down too fast because the back of my right knee was bothering me the rest of the day. I'm amazed I was able to get 70 miles with Monday as an off day (dad life) and no 20 miler. Saturday's run was actually planned to be 14, we kind of accidently had to make it longer, and the fact I forgot a headlamp so sharing light was requiring running uphill on legitimate rocky trails, was fun. My RP said "that time I winded RP" and I chuckled.

          Afternoon Activity and child exhaustion are TRX. I do the workout in the manual as 3 sets of 10 instead of time. Rest equal to 30 seconds or as long as the workout takes. It's mostly 30 seconds. I'm TRYING for two times a week, and I FEEL like it's helping, while also feeling like I'm behind because I've not been doing it as regular as CIM 2019, Las Vegas 2019, or Chicago 2018.

           

          *rant* He asked me to start my watch at the same time as him so he could be sure of distance, and I told him "instant pace isn't going to matter on race day." I personally think he is butchering Hansons, BUT he is doing the speed, tempo/marathon pace, and long runs as the table says. He's just scheduling them his way. I'd never do a 6x1 mile (10 seconds faster than goal pace) on Wednesday then 8 mile tempo/marathon pace on Thursday. He got through it just fine, and a 17 mile long run. I honestly think he could run Indy right now and have great success. It just goes to show me how I grew up focused on one sport, and he and his kid are "well rounded" doing all kinds of things. I laughed when he said "well I made it through the whole cycle last year. Marathon training was easier in 2020 because everything was canceled." yeah, and I've amazingly trained for marathons without ever working from home, while also having a baby, and needing to be home for dinner. Sometimes I even ran in the morning before driving to work." Part of me wants to see him fail at his goal (BQ-5) and part of me wants to see him succeed. I'm really weird. *end rant*

           

          Weekly for period: From: 10/11/2021 To 10/17/2021

          Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
          in ft
          10/12 That time the body enjoyed the rest. 13.31 21.42 01:45:58 07:58 04:57 177
          10/12 Afternoon Activity 0.00 0.00 00:32:23 00:00 00:00 0
          10/13 That time nothing I do is right. 8.26 13.28 01:06:23 08:02 05:00 331
          10/14 That time I earned a Garmin 3 day weekend. 14.26 22.94 01:47:19 07:32 04:41 180
          10/14 Child exhaustion 0.00 0.00 00:34:40 00:00 00:00 0
          10/15 That time I’m waiting for ‘ZEH EEEWWWWWW DE’ 3.00 4.83 00:24:54 08:18 05:09 52
          10/15 That time we SKRATCH that. 7.15 11.50 00:59:35 08:20 05:11 115
          10/16 That time I forgotten consume enough engine coolant. 16.06 25.85 02:18:02 08:36 05:20 607
          10/17 That time I had to pay the toll. 8.01 12.88 01:07:49 08:28 05:16 646

          Total distance: 70.05mi

          Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

          VDOT 54.9

          5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

          JMac11


          I spilled the milk

            Jhud - I agree, I never liked that part of Pfitz's plan. 3x1600 at Vo2 is a hard workout (I've never done more than 1200), and 10 days in advance? I don't think he even has anything above 1200s prior to that but I may be wrong. I think the 2x4 at MP is good that Mikkey stated. DW with 2x3 @ HMP, I probably would change that to 3x2 to be a bit easier. JD has a weird mixed workout he does 10 days in advance: 4E + 1T + 2M + 1T + 2M + 2E.

             

            Marby - that was a great workout Sunday and even better on low carbs: good way to train the body.

             

            DPS - good race and sounds very hard. I do think being in a competitive race is very important for a marathon (you can get away with it in a 5K). I know JT has run some non-competitive marathons where he's all by himself, but that's why I refuse to do small time marathons. I think once you get to the 2:45 range, you aren't guaranteed to have people running near your pace unless you get into a 1000+ person marathon. I also agree with RP - either the race needs a lead bike, or the lead bike did a bad job. I've run in races where you have slow people, but the lead bike has a whistle that tells people to get out of the way.

             

            DW - that's the best way to do things honestly: try them one at a time (usually unwinding though). I'm glad you may have found the underlying issue.

             

            Cal - I don't think I've asked you: what was your conclusion on the faster easy running?

             

            RP - I think you're getting into very good shape. I told you you had a lot of time. You still do. 4 more weeks of full training is plenty, you're lining up nicely for another sub 3 attempt.

             

            Me - a mixed bag week. My Wednesday workout was great. I've never done 4T before in a TLT workout, and it went really well. I felt really good even after the last 4T. Big confidence booster. Then Saturday I had an awful long run. I was supposed to do 22, starting around 7:30 and progressing down to 6:30 or so. By mile 14 or so, I realized the progression wasn't going to happen. Then, by mile 16, the wheels started coming off and I knew I wasn't going to make it. I toughed it out for the final 2 miles for 18 total, but felt just terrible. I chalk it up to dehydration/heat though: we've had unseasonably warm weather here and I had to run right at 1 PM to avoid some t storms. It was 135 TDP with full sunshine, and even though I was drinking a lot, I was incredibly dehydrated when I got home. So I don't think it was a fitness issue, but rather a hydration issue I couldn't stay in front of.

             

            At the start of that run, I felt something in my left foot. I actually stopped a minute in because I thought maybe I had a rock in my shoe, but it actually was a tendon issue. The run itself was okay. When I got home and sat down for 30 minutes, when I got up, I couldn't walk. My left foot was in so much pain I couldn't even try a hop test. I thought I just got my first injury of the cycle (I've never gone a cycle without one, this was a first). So I went into full treatment mode: lots of ice since it was the first 24 hours, massage gun, and a really thorough tape job. When I woke up the next morning, miraculously it was almost fully gone. I don't know if my treatment stopped something bigger from happening, or I just had some weird plantar issue that was temporary, but I did have a fear when I couldn't really walk that I had an injury that would put a pause in my training. Phew. Now I just have to continue with the few other niggles I'm dealing with, but all of them are under control and don't give me much concern.

             

            After 4 weeks in the upper 70s/low 80s, it's time for a down week this week, which I always use an opportunity to race. I have a half marathon scheduled on Sunday. The course itself isn't perfect: you have to climb a bridge over a bay, and then climb it again on the way back. It's always relatively windy on this part of Long Island (10-20 MPH), which isn't great. However, the forecast does look great: should be in the upper 40s / low 50s for the race. I can deal with the headwind as long as it stays more in the 10 mph range. I did run a race on this part of Long Island 2 years ago and had a 25 mph headwind for my last 6 miles. This shouldn't be that bad.

             

            The A goal is 1:14:59. I'd love to break 75 minutes. B goal is a PR. C goal is to run what my workouts indicate, which is sub 1:16. So they're all pretty close to each other. If the wind stays calm, I feel good about that A goal. I'm excited to race for a PR for the first time in a year!

             

            Weekly for period: From: 10/11/2021 To 10/17/2021

            Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
            in ft
            10/11 Afternoon Run 6.63 10.66 00:56:01 08:27 05:15 157
            10/12 Evening Run 10.32 16.60 01:21:49 07:56 04:56 410
            10/13 2E + 4T (5:43) + 6E + 4T (5:44) + 2E 18.01 28.98 02:05:03 06:57 04:19 650
            10/14 Lunch Run 6.78 10.90 00:57:41 08:30 05:18 210
            10/15 Afternoon Run 10.35 16.66 01:21:14 07:51 04:53 420
            10/16 Didn't have 22 in me today 17.91 28.81 02:10:51 07:18 04:33 807
            10/17 Afternoon Run 10.35 16.65 01:18:30 07:35 04:43 420

            Total distance: 80.34mi

            5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

             

            Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

            Running Problem


            Problem Child

              JMac Thanks. Right now I'm thinking of a 6:50/mi marathon pace at CIM so every Thursday is building a little bit more confidence. I think YOUR training is going well and you will be able to pull one more PR at CIM, IF we get some great weather. Your hydration needs are still crazy to me. Best of luck on racing this weekend.

              Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

              VDOT 54.9

              5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07


              Elite Jogger

                RP - It’s looking like you and Cal could be running similar times again at CIM…and I think the pace will be faster than 6:50.

                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                CalBears


                  RP - It’s looking like you and Cal could be running similar times again at CIM…and I think the pace will be faster than 6:50.

                   

                  Totally agreed! After two subpar races Cal is downgraded from B+ to C-, no doubt about it. One more similar race result and we will be talking about Chapter 11.

                  paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                  CalBears


                    JMac - I do not think it's possible to go through 12 weeks of training without some workouts going bad. So, I would not be too concerned with some non-ideal runs. Your successful workouts far exceed the unsuccessful ones.

                     

                    As for your question re my faster workouts - I didn't have any conclusions. As it always happens with me, I just moved to another thing after first marathon in August - I only had maybe 5-6 weeks of those faster runs, so, cannot say anything right now. I guess I need to have at least one cycle (12 weeks) to decide if it works. But I think it definitely didn't hurt. Smile

                     

                    RP - Mikkey is right, you may surprise yourself at CIM. You seem to get the joy of training back and this is so important for good result on a race day. Looks like it will be fun racing with you in December! 

                    paces PRs - 5K - 5:48  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


                    Elite Jogger

                       

                        

                      RP - Mikkey is right, you may surprise yourself at CIM. You seem to get the joy of training back and this is so important for good result on a race day. Looks like it will be fun racing with you in December! 

                      RP needs encouragement and has the ability to run a great marathon. With Cal I can take the piss and

                      know that he won’t get offended. 👍

                      5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                      Running Problem


                      Problem Child

                        More like...RP needs a fair assessment of his training, and a new pace to aim for or else he will sandbag.

                        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                        VDOT 54.9

                        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                        JMac11


                        I spilled the milk

                          More like...RP needs a fair assessment of his training, and a new pace to aim for or else he will sandbag.

                           

                          Can you run a half marathon sometime over the next 4 weekends?

                          5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                           

                          Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (8/27)

                          Marby


                            DW:  I’m impressed that with those symptoms you continue to turn up and get it done. With your discovery it sounds like there is light at the end of the tunnel and surely good times once through it.

                            I was so confused doing 500’s with the group first time.  There are markers at the park where we do them but the recoveries are to ‘run to about where that light pole is, then u-turn back to the marker’.

                             

                            Mikkey: Under 41 min for 10k off the back of mileage so low it would be ridiculous to post is… ridiculous.

                             

                            Jhud: Great to hear the leg stuff is better and very nice long run. Just had a look ahead to what’s in my plan for 10 days out and have 2x1km +2x600m +2x400m, no pace specified yet but suppose it’ll be HM, 10k, 5k.

                             

                            Cal: Hilly trails sound like a great strength workout. Maybe not the textbook way to ease back into things a week after a marathon. The reading with you is less of boring textbook and more action-thriller with plot twists aplenty.

                             

                            RP: I like those Tuesday numbers.  I prefer my 9mi lead in to your 2mi, seems barely enough to get warm.

                             

                            JMac: Glad the tendon thing resolved so quickly, that’s so strange. Go get that sub 75 tiger!

                            Half 1:26:41 (2016), Marathon 2:59:83 (2021)

                            CommanderKeen


                            Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                              DPS - Well done, congratulations are truly in order.


                              Marby - Nice week. Have I missed why you're keeping the carbs low? Hooray for new shoes!


                              JHud - Good week, and killer LR. I'm a bit intimidated by having 22 on my plan for this weekend, but yours with M effort in there is on a different level.


                              Cal - Good points about running trails for those benefits - assuming you can get access to those. Trails (or even road routes) with multi-mile climbs are somewhere between "extremely rare" to "nonexistent" here in Oklahoma.


                              RP - The "Goose Mug", also known as the "Mug of Shame".

                              Super-solid hitting that mileage goal, especially with an entire day off and no 20 in there. Hopefully that knee gets better soon.


                              JMac - 2x 4T is a big one! Congrats on that in particular. Super-tough conditions for that LR. Glad that foot issue was resolved so easily, and I'm looking forward to seeing that race on Strava. Best of luck.

                               

                              I had a good week, though I think I'm being a tad silly when I wish I had an extra 5k double thrown in there somewhere. Pacing was fun on Sunday, and was the second time I've been able to pace this race (last year was cancelled). Looking up the last race, my time from this year and the first were only 1 second apart!

                               

                              The weather around here has cooled off considerably and HR for my runs has been so low for the effort that anything that looks at HR for establishing training stress thinks I'm cutting back. Average run temperature so far for October is 57*, while the previous months were 68*, 73*, 72*, & 70*.

                               

                              Weekly for period: From: 10/11/2021 To 10/17/2021

                              Date Name mi km Duration Avg/mi Avg/km Elevation Gain
                              in ft
                              10/11 6x mile @ 10k effort, 3 min recovery 14.11 22.70 01:43:31 07:20 04:34 433
                              10/11 Recovery. But from work, or the workout? 4.05 6.52 00:34:57 08:38 05:22 144
                              10/12 5 deer (5 strides), 1 raccoon, & 1 screech owl 10.11 16.26 01:22:48 08:11 05:06 472
                              10/13 All aboard the Mugen Train! 19.05 30.65 02:31:01 07:56 04:56 0
                              10/14 2 deer (2 strides), 1 screech owl, 1 shooting star, & finding the water main break 9.15 14.73 01:19:19 08:40 05:23 459
                              10/15 3 deer (3 strides), 2 rabbits, & not wading across the spillway 11.36 18.28 01:30:09 07:56 04:56 413
                              10/15 Zwift Runch - Paris 5.05 8.13 00:40:57 08:07 05:02 0
                              10/16 8 deer (8 strides) & 1 screech owl 8.30 13.36 01:10:51 08:32 05:18 436
                              10/17 Warming up 4.10 6.60 00:32:47 08:00 04:58 105
                              10/17 Hot Chocolate 15k pacing gig 9.36 15.06 01:05:00 06:57 04:19 269
                              10/17 Touring the botanical gardens 2.75 4.43 00:23:53 08:41 05:23 56

                              Total distance: 97.40mi

                              5k: 18:14 11/21 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                               

                              Upcoming Races:

                               

                              Wurst Race Half - 10/8

                              CIM - 12/4

                              Running Problem


                              Problem Child

                                 

                                Can you run a half marathon sometime over the next 4 weekends?

                                 

                                Maybe. I'd have to talk to the wife. The only one I can find is in Sac. Otherwise I don't know of anything longer than a 10k and THAT one is halloween. I think.

                                 

                                Hotel for CIM booked. $414. Probably the most expensive one night stay in Sacramento/Folsom I've ever done. Hopefully they actually clean the room between Friday and Saturday when I show up. Literally the only place near downtown I could find. Parking is extra.

                                 

                                Keen 97 miles....jeeze...when do you do anything else?

                                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                                VDOT 54.9

                                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07