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47 years old, lift weights, run, lower my 5 k time (Read 101 times)

Jogger bobby


    Hello all!

     

    Thank you for having me.

     

    I'm 47 and a longtime runner but no big miles. I ran 4 marathons in my 20s on 40 miles per week with a best time of 3:45:00.

     

    Now I run only about 12-15 miles per week. I do one 4-5 mile slow run, a tempo run of 2-3 miles, and a track workout usually 12*400 - 5*1000 or sometimes some true 50-200m sprints. And an easy run or two.

     

    My last 5k was at 7.21 pace = 22.50. i have a goal of getting under a 7 minute pace, so that would be about 21.30.

     

    The catch is I also lift weights. I follow a modified starting strength program for those who know it so I'm doing heavy deadlifts weekly, squats twice a week, and pushes and pulls and presses 2-3* per week.

     

    All this means I'm basically working out pretty hard 5-6 days per week.

     

    Also it means I'm not super thin and lean, i have intentionally gained about 20# in the last ten years, so bmi is about 24.

     

    What would you recommend for my goal? Basically do more long slow miles? Also would you recommend I switch the squats and deadlifts to the same day as my easy runs so my legs have 2-3 true rest days?

     

    I'm not willing to give up the muscle I've gained but i don't need to gain any more. Is it realistic to cut that much time off my 5k in one season alone?

    Half Crazy K 2.0


      Hard to say about the 5k time. That said, if your main goal is running related, make that activity a prioriity for a training cycle. You can probably find some 8-12 week 5k plans to follow.

       

      With the strength training, I tend to  keep the easy days easy and hard days hard. So do the heavy leg workouts on the same day as your run workouts. Since running is the priority, run first. Maybe that means run in the morning and lift in the evening or at lunch. Assuming the push & pull workouts are mostly upper body, doing those on an easy day shouldn't be an issue.

      Jogger bobby


        What is the point of a lot of long slow miles? How would going up to 26-30 miles a week, with a LSR of 9 miles and 2 long easy runs of 5 miles each week, with the same 1-2 high intensity workouts, lower my 5k time?


        an amazing likeness

          As a generalization...for most recreational runners...To run faster, you need to run more. To run more you need to remain injury free. To remain injury free a good number of those miles need to be easy on the body.

           

          All of which leads to the time-proven maxim of "run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard".

           

           

           

          ...

          Many people think that you keep on improving just by running--running a lot or running slowly.  To a degree, yes.  But real improvement and progress comes with a well-rounded training program and one program is built upon the previous progress.  With a successful training program, you should improve steadily one cycle to the next.  You might be experiencing this progress.  Depending on how you feel, you may want to consider (1) do more days of running, (2) push the duration of the runs upward of "longest suggested duration" or (3) push the pace closer to the "fastest suggested pace".  Running fast is not necessarily a bad thing as long it's controlled. 

          ...

          Acceptable at a dance, invaluable in a shipwreck.

          CalBears


            What is the point of a lot of long slow miles? How would going up to 26-30 miles a week, with a LSR of 9 miles and 2 long easy runs of 5 miles each week, with the same 1-2 high intensity workouts, lower my 5k time?

             

            Because 5K is not anaerobic event, it's aerobic. To last 5K at a faster pace you need to acquire aerobic endurance. Yes, you need intensity workout too (anaerobic), not doubt, but aerobic endurance is as important, if not more, for 5K as anaerobic. I would advise to read about running a little bit moe, google-ing should help immensely. One of my favorite articles for 5K training is this:

             

            https://www.runnersworld.com/advanced/a20806851/solving-the-5k-puzzle/

            paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


            Train SMART

              This is too much hard running for only 12-15 miles a week and will get you injured and progress will come to halt if it hasn't already. Over next 3 months slowly build your miles to 25 miles per week. Work up to 8-9 mile long run and add 1-2 miles to your other runs (easy miles warm up and cooldown miles before and after your harder running). Nothing else has to change. You will be under 7 min pace in no time. As mentioned above, 80% of your miles should be comfy if training correctly. Nothing can replace a strong aerobic base. I run 7 min 5K race pace and do 90% of my miles comfy in offseason and 85% as a goal race approaches. This formula works for long term progress and long term health.

              THE RECOVERY MAN. Run Injury Free. www.smartapproachtraining.com

                I thought starting strength was a 3 day a week program.

                 

                I am 60 and my main goal is keeping or even adding muscle while running 15 miles a week or 20 at most.

                 

                Have you tried just lifting just lifting 3 days a week.

                  Run more.

                  Runners run.

                  berylrunner


                  Rick

                    Cut out the lifting.   Run more.  You could hit that time goal in a month.

                     

                    4-10-21  Zion 100 (Utah)

                     

                    Jogger bobby


                      I thought starting strength was a 3 day a week program.

                       

                      I am 60 and my main goal is keeping or even adding muscle while running 15 miles a week or 20 at most.

                       

                      Have you tried just lifting just lifting 3 days a week.

                       

                      Yep so 3 days lifting +3-4 days running.

                       

                      Thanks to all the replies. I won't stop lifting  as i think it's important for total health and multi sport fitness such as soccer and skiing and I'm so happy to have gained 20# the last ten years. But I hear from you all i should change one hard run to a long slow run, and potentially add more miles with a consistent 4th easy day. So one long run, 2 easy runs, and either tempos or 5k effort intervals once a week? That article was super helpful, thanks for the link.

                       

                      Interestingly i was listening to an interview with Phil Maffetone last night, about training at HR 180-age plus adjustments. For me that would pencil out to 128 which seems ridiculous easy. Like even my easy runs are 135, I'd practically be shuffling ar 128. What do you target for easy runs, effort or pace, and do you use HR as a target?


                      Elite Jogger

                         

                        Yep so 3 days lifting +3-4 days running.

                         

                        Thanks to all the replies. I won't stop lifting  as i think it's important for total health and multi sport fitness such as soccer and skiing and I'm so happy to have gained 20# the last ten years. But I hear from you all i should change one hard run to a long slow run, and potentially add more miles with a consistent 4th easy day. So one long run, 2 easy runs, and either tempos or 5k effort intervals once a week? That article was super helpful, thanks for the link.

                         

                        Interestingly i was listening to an interview with Phil Maffetone last night, about training at HR 180-age plus adjustments. For me that would pencil out to 128 which seems ridiculous easy. Like even my easy runs are 135, I'd practically be shuffling ar 128. What do you target for easy runs, effort or pace, and do you use HR as a target?

                         

                        An easy run should feel comfortable, so I go by effort as pace will be affected by the weather, terrain, elevation etc. My easy runs are usually between 2 and 3min/mile slower than 5k pace. I don’t check HR during runs, but will have a quick look at the data after a run.

                        5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                        augeleven


                          I can only say what works for me, and I have been trying to balance heavy lifting and running since 2017.  I feel like I have only now (in the past year) figured it out.  Creds:  I'm a super slow runner, am 40 years old, 230# @25%bf,  my S/B/D bests are 365/290/475.  My goal this year is to run a half-marathon and pull 500 in the same week.

                           

                          Don't stop lifting if you like lifting!  Unless you need to hit a 5k time for a job requirement, but if you are a casual hobbyist (aka not making money at 5ks or powerlifting meets) you can do both.

                           

                          First of all, be careful with Starting Strength.  There is a lot of weird cult like thoughts about eating through your sticking points and always grinding your fives.  They also hate the idea of endurance training.  Under no circumstances trust anything they say about running!

                          I have found it important to stay far away from failure: I like to train in the RPE 5-7 range, or do a single, double or triple @RPE 7-8 then do back off work from there.  I don't use RPE prescriptively, but I go in, hit my top set, then evaulate it after the fact.  I video my top sets and check them out after to make sure my impressions of bar speed were close.  You really don't have to be accurate with RPE to use it, just stay away from grinding out reps: you're basically practicing bad form!

                          Also Starting Strength is limited on upper back work.  As a runner, upper back strength-endurance helps posture a lot. Also upper back strength helps your bench (and your squat if you lowbar)

                          If not Starting Strength, then what?  Check out Greg Nuckols, Data-Driven Strength (who kinda got their start on Exodus-strength.com!), Alexander Bromley, Mike T at RTS, and even though the name is kinda cringey, Tactical Barbell..  Greg and the guys at Data-Driven Strength have put out a lot of info about low RPE training, which meshes well with running.

                           

                          Another take away - keep your energy systems work separate (Check out Alex Viada's stuff)  If you're squatting heavy sets of 5-8 (yes you can do more than 5 reps!) that's a lot of alactic work.  If you're cutting your rests short (RPE< 7 means 1.5 to 2 min rests!) you're getting a bunch of anaerobic work done.  Long slow miles are your friend.  Build that base.

                           

                          Weekly structure - If you really need to squat more than once a week, I love a Hypertrophy/Power/Strength Split.  (Google the MOntana Method)

                          (%x reps x sets)

                          Monday ~70%x5x6-8  I like to Front Squat here

                          Wednesday work up to 90%, 85x1x3-5  I like to Low bar here.  After elbow tendinitis, I never Low bar more than 1 rep a time

                          Friday~80%x2-3x6-8  I like High bar here

                           

                          I would deadlift 5x5 on wednesdays, and run T,Th,Sa  all slow miles, mostly run/walk to keep recovery in check.

                           

                          Another way to do it would be to do a 4 day split but move the days around

                          Monday - Heavy Deadlift/Light Squat (plenty of back work accessories)

                          Tuesday - Heavy Bench/ Light Press/Short run

                          Wednesday - Run!

                          Thursday Heavy Press/Light bench/Short Run

                          Friday - Heavy Squat/light deadlift (more accessories)

                          Saturday - long run

                           

                          Right now I'm doing a variation of that:

                          Monday:Heavy Deadlift/Press/EMOM Squats w/ chains

                          Tuesday - Run

                          Wednesday: Incline bench/DB bench/ lots of accesories/ short run (gradually adding in intervals)

                          Thursday - Run

                          Friday - Heavy Squat/more press (it's press season - Bench is for the fall/winter)/Light deadlift

                          Saturday - long run

                           

                          I keep my lifting stuff on a log at exodus-strength.com (same handle), but they are currently down.  I'm very slow and not very strong, but I'm progressing and staying injury-free.


                          Train SMART

                            What do you target for easy runs, effort or pace, and do you use HR as a target?

                             

                             

                             

                            My "general" guidelines

                            Easy Pace - 2 min per mile slower pace than pace you could run a 5K that day in the conditions you are running in. This can vary 15 sec either way. If legs very tired, I will run a s slow as I need to

                            Tempo - 30-45 sec slower than current 5K race pace. Can be run continuous or in 1 - 2 mile intervals. 20 - 30 min at tempo pace

                            5K intervals ish - think of running them closer to 10K pace since in training the effort will feel closer to 5K effort. You don't want to run these semi long intervals too hard for too long or you get stale. Think 10k pace. Do around 3 miles worth of these or work toward

                            Speed - 1 min intervals at 1 mile pace ish 8-12 reps

                             

                            Here is some structure to work toward gradually

                             

                            Day 1 5-6 miles Easy with 4-6 quick striders 15-20 secs fast

                            Day 2 6-8 miles with rotation of tempo, 5/10K intervals, speed. Warm up and cool down miles (s) before and after

                            Day 3 4 miles with striders

                            Day 4 8-9 miles easy with last mile or two faster

                            THE RECOVERY MAN. Run Injury Free. www.smartapproachtraining.com

                            Jogger bobby


                              Thanks everyone and augeleven for all the lifting tips. I know it's this way, if I go to a running board some runners say stop lifting, go to a bodybuilding forum and they'll all say to stop running!

                               

                              I played around with the Maffetone pace and did some running and discovered and decided on a few things.

                               

                              1. My slow pace needs to be slower. Maffetone would target 123-128 and that was around a 930-1000 pace. Even slower up hills and toward the end of my run. I've been doing easy runs at 135 and 920 pace.

                               

                              2. My Garmin 35 isn't going to work for heart rate training unless I can buy some HRM attachment. I may not need to do it this way but i would need different equipment.

                               

                              3. Maffetone takes your suggestions one step forward and says I should ONLY do slow training for a couple months while I build mileage/base. I'm going to try this because it fits with an off trail 10k at altitude that I have in mid July, and a Half Dome hike two weeks later. So I'll want max aerobic fitness for both events. Goal will be 23 miles weekly (4, 4, 6, 9).

                               

                              4. I'm going to try for Mon am short run, Mon eve deadlifts/squats; Tue Bench/pullups; Wed am medium run; Thu am short run, Thu PM squats/cleans; Fri chins/press/rows; Sat long run. Something like that. That's 2-3 days a week no legs, comes out to 24-36 hours of true rest, ignoring soccer or hiking.

                               

                              5. After my hike i will change 1 easy day to alternating track or tempo runs, and do some hills for form, with a goal of a 5k in September. Idea being the aerobic base and 3-4 months of training at target max efficiency heart rate will improve my aerobic efficiency allowing me to run faster aerobically than I did this spring (I ran 7.10 pace last September but conditions were better so I don't think I'm far off).

                               

                              What do you think?

                               

                              If I follow something like this, how do I know what speed to target for the fall 5k? And at what speed to do speed work late summer?


                              Still kicking

                                I've been fighting this loosing battle for 40 years. I say loosing, because it's nothing but a pain in the ass. My first love is lifting weights and looking bad ass. But I also have some natural running ability. My whole adult life, I've wanted to run fast, and look bad ass at the same time. It doesn't happen that way. My ideal running weight is 145, and by the time I hit 150, I can feel the muscle bouncing, and lats starts chafing, and my times stop getting faster. By the time I hit 160, (about the time my thighs start rubbing)) all running progress stops, and the more muscle I put on, the slower I got. My max body weight was 190, and it was when I ran like a turtle. I finally gave up at the age of 52, and decided that lifting heavy for vanity muscle, was fruitless. I still lift, but for health and fitness, and NOT size. I've been around 150 lbs for the last 10 years, and look ok, and run well. On a good day, I can still break 7 minute miles for a 10K. But I also know from years of experience, that just 10 pounds of muscle, would make that impossible.

                                I'm also on Athlinks and Strava

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