Forums >Racing>3:20 Marathoners ... New and Improved for (the rest of) 2017
pie man
Belated congrats ace.
11:11 3,000 (recent)
Congrats Ace!
e78: Regarding Exploding Head, I don't keep close track, but it's maybe once every few weeks. Lately the episodes have been less intense, more of a wave than an explosion.
Cobra Commander Keen
Oy, I've been gone a few days.
Max - Thanks for the down-low on your gear. Also "tune-up 50k". Ha! Best of luck on the hamster wheel race.
Dwave - Awesome that your grandfather has made it to 100.
KK - Not good regarding your local runner. Speaking as to the offence, not the defense. That I approve of. Do you have a link to a news article?I run in an EXTREMELY rural area and pass about 6 houses in 12 miles once I'm outside of town and so rarely even see anyone when running. There used to be a couple problem dogs on the route (thankfully they're gone now), but for those I would carry a small canister of Fox Labs pepper spray. I've never had to use it on a dog more than once, and it should work as well on two-legged predators. Check your local ordinances, not all locations allow carrying of defensive articles such as this.
Ace - I hope everything is still going well and that you're getting at least some sleep.
Brew - Your wife is getting pretty close; how's she doing?
Still recovering from the sinus/respiratory infections stemming from the cold bug DD2 shared. Haven't run in 8 days, and I have a HM on Sunday! I'm just looking to have all the fun I can with it, then having awesome pizza afterwards. Then, on to building back up ahead of training next year!
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Pace Prophet
Congratulations, Ace (and Mrs Ace)!
CK - ugh, feel better soon. Consider it Extreme Taper for the half...
Katia - I don't carry anything but I've never felt threatened here. Though I've considered carrying pepper spray for badly-behaved dogs.
What I used to do back when I ran marathons two weeks out was run the same mpw as three weeks out, with midweek MLR focusing on MP, and a LR of 16 as a progression run.
For those of you who doubt that I live in the most awesome place ever, tomorrow is our local ski resort's opening day. They have basically two runs open with fake snow, but - and this is the cool thing - they also will be turning the lift that goes to the lift-served mountain bike trails, and a lift ticket is good for both. So you can go ski in the morning and then bike in the afternoon on the same mountain!
Ace - post a pic!
Ilana - I'm jealous. I imagine you'll be OK for skiing this winter?
KK - there was a poster on MRT about 10y ago ("Mir", if I recall...), who was the victim of a serious sexual assault, and there was a subsequent thread on precautions, weapons, etc - lots of different opinions. Personally, I don't think carrying a weapon (or even spray), makes sense, but I would be cautious about routes/time of day/running alone, etc
Duke Of Bad Judgment
Greetings from Darkwave's extended 'hood, where all her one-step-above-imaginary friends hang out. I don't think I'm in Seattle anymore. At lunch today I heard a gentleman say "Ah LUUUV pig knuckles."
Eliz - You enjoy pool running? Good luck at the Turkey Trot. Nice choice of pic for the how-to-post-a-photo demo. Dwave - Sorry about your week. You have some good genes, with a 100yo grandparent. Dad - So not som many marathons for you. What is the emphasis now? PJ - Club nats sound like fun. I'm not sure if long runs are optimal XC prep. Maybe hill sprints and the like. Katya - That's scary about the local incident. Pepper spray is legal to carry here but the vast majority of runners (including me) don't bother. I was once on the receiving end, when some young idiot sprayed me at random and ran away. Yes it works. Ilana - That's nice with the ski/bike combo. Also cool that you can do both those things, even if running is limited. Well I have a bit of a problem. The knee seemed better so I went for a run and the injury came right back. It's ITB, and although it manifested after a kayaking session I'm pretty sure it would have happened anyway. The other side was about ready to pop too. I am rolling both sides, which is helping. Maybe I'll be able to run XC on Sunday, maybe not. I might just hang up my shoes until CIM. Apart from that (heh), things are OK. My track group is growing, and I got a nice email from a triathlete buddy who credits my tempo intervals for helping her to a half PR.
Resident Millennial
KK- This is a topic I haven't thought about in awhile, but the last time it was on my mind, it's because a male friend/coworker/occasional running buddy shook his head when I told him I often run alone. He recommended I carry pepper spray. I asked him if he carries pepper spray when he runs. He laughed and said no, and he did not comment on the state of males abusing those who are less physically powerful than them. Cool.Anyway, yeah , I run by myself all the time (because who has friends/companions who can go with them for every single run?) and often not carrying anything except my keys. If I were in the process of being attacked, a phone would not be helpful, and I also don't think my first instinct would be to fire off pepper spray (if I had it). 99% of the time I am running somewhere with other people (runners, cyclists, dogwalkers) around and I am quite sure that if I were to scream or make noise, I would be heard. Ever since that story of a woman who was attacked in a public bathroom while running, I take earphones out (if I'm wearing them) when I go into a park bathroom mid-run. But...yeah, that's all I got. Maybe we (collectively) aim to change this culture rather than telling women to run with pepper spray!
PJ- club nats would be fun, though definitely humbling. we often send a team, and will do so again this year. i don't think i'll sign myself up for that until my XC racing is much, much better than it is now. i agree - the SF club nats afterparty a few years ago was A++. lots of running "celeb" elbow-brushing!
mcB - ha... ha. ha ha.
jim- sorry to hear about the ITB! hanging up shoes until CIM is probably the wisest thing for it, and it's not like there's any fitness left to be gained anyway.where were you kayaking?
eliz- if we ever run together somewhere/sometime in the future, we should both wear our flag bootyshorts! re. "have nothing to lose" in aiming for sub-20 and the achey achilles ... is it possible to screw up your achilles with the 5k attempt? i don't know much about achilles(es?), but just playing devil's advocate.
max- full of wisdom, as usual. on the note of "45-60 minutes of discomfort is not really that bad" - I'm trying (kind of for the first time) to do some "mental training" in the next couple weeks. any tips or particular exercises, streams of thought, strategies, etc that you have found useful? i would guess that you occasionally encounter mental challenges in your running exploits ... just occasionally.
good feedback on the what-to-do-for-LR-two-weeks-out question, thanks all!eliz and mcB- sounds like you two both do a big LR with two weeks to go. i have done that in the past (did a 24mi two weeks before my second marathon, which is still my PR), which is a nice confidence boost, but I've been reading that you don't even see fitness impact from something like that until a few weeks later. given how tired i am now, and the fact i've done enough marathons now to know i can do it, i am going to do a longer but shallower taper this time.I'll run a "shorter" LR on saturday, 16ish miles, a bunch of which will be trail/big hills as I'm pacing a friend the last bit of her first 50miler. sunday will be something like 8-10 with 6@MP. we have local XC championships in the park, which will be fun to spectate (and say hi to jim, since i missed him last weekend!).speaking of said 50miler, there will be some fun trail racing action here this weekend with The North Face 50. the course has changed, and though the changes kind of suck, it makes the finish area very convenient for me, just a couple miles' run away from home.
_________________________________________________mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
oh and one more thing, maybe a bit philosophical ... what would you all do in this situation?i am probably in 3:15 shape. various calculators have me between 3:12-3:16, based on average 63mpw and a recent (rather subpar) HM of 1:32:20. my PR is 3:21:05. the harder we try to run our best possible race result on a given day, the more likely we are to overreach, struggle in the end, blow up a bit - correct?would you: 1) "go for it" - my best possible race time on 12/3, and accept the higher risk of fade, blowup, not even PRing, etc.? (my PR is 4.5 years old. i was also in ~3:15 shape in the spring, it was Hot, it went poorly, i ran a 3:25.)or:2) run more conservatively - say, 3:17 pace - to ensure higher likelihood of a PR/sub3:20/whatever, while still having a chance of notching things down towards 3:15 in later miles if things are going well?
Ilana - I've never felt threatened either but that one scared me.
CK - I live in Utah so I could honestly run with a gun, concealed or not, if I wanted to. I personally think that's dangerous, but I'm sure there are people here that do it.
Rovatti - I looked for the thread and couldn't find it. I tend to agree with it not being worth it, but this runner actually stabbed the guy, so she was apparently carrying something. It's unfortunately ON the street I live on and I can't really avoid it.. :/ I've not really felt unsafe before, but obviously that scared me, and my husband (probably more).
Jim - ugh, I'm sorry about the ITB. It's like my least favorite overuse injury. I battled it quite a bit in 2013, and ultimately had to just STOP whenever I felt pain and gradually increase, making sure my runs stopped before the pain started. Otherwise, it just never went away. YMMV.
Rlk - The scary part is 1) again, this incident was ON the street I live on, so no getting out of running on (ie, I live between 500E and 400E, it was on 500E), and 2) I've always thought of this residential city area as somewhere where I'd be heard as well if I made noise (houses on both sides). The victim chose to stab the person instead which honestly, fine, but who knows if she would have screamed if it would have been effective. I don't know that my phone would be effective either, I only started carrying that since I got pregnant with my son and after I had him so that I could be reached for obvious reasons. Also, I'd love to change culture and think we should, but I don't want to be unrealistic and naive at my own expense.
I personally really like the shallowish long taper (until the end, then it's steep), but everyone is different. It's worked well for me in the past. The only time I tried a 2 week taper I didnt' end up racing well, but I also went out WAY too fast, so there is that. I like the benefit that the rest gives me.
Smax - doesn't sound like Seattle at all.
Thanks for the thoughts, all. I ordered pepper spray, but not sure if I'll use it or not. I slept in today since it was raining and tomorrow I'll run in the daylight so no issue there. I've always figured running away is my best defense, but again, don't want to be naive at my own expense.
PRs: HM: 1:32:59 (2015); FM: 3:18:36 (2017)
kk- yes, and i like that phrase. definitely don't be naive at your own expense!i wonder about probabilities of things - it sounds like that is a freak incident which happened in a safe area, not like it's a rough neighborhood with lots of gang activity, wherein that would be expected. sort of like the attack in Boston - huge races now have much bigger security in response to that specific situation, they are super wary about backpacks near finish lines, etc., but what is the probability that something similar happens in that spot again? my gut feeling is low, since now everybody is on the lookout for it, it's already been done, awareness is heightened for that specific type of attack, etc. but who knows. (maybe the CIA? maybe dwave? :P kidding)
What was your last HM/other tuneup, marathon, mileage relationship set? My quick and dirty calculation puts you around 3:17, so I don't consider that overly conservative.
ilana- yay, pace predictions! last cycle: averaged 50mpw during training (not incl taper) with 3 weeks at 61 for my highest. (some travel and skiing meant less miles.) i did a HM 10 weeks out at 1:32:30 and that was a decent performance given fitness at the time, early in cycle. 5 weeks out i PRed 5k in 19:55.this cycle: averaged more like 60mpw, peaked at 68. slightly shorter cycle. HM 6 weeks out was 1:32:20, and that was a poor performance given fitness at the time. what other data would help prediction? we did many of the same workouts in spring and fall, so i have lots of head-to-head comparison.
Club nats is 10k, so any extra endurance would help. I'm mostly banking on XC being like riding a bike.
rlk - Ooh, I like this question. Don't forget this is CIM we are talking about, so the course profile comes into consideration. Most of the net downhill is in the early miles, so you can maybe pace a few seconds per mile fast in the first half, but it's fatal to overdo this. It's a bit like Boston without the Newton hills. Here are my Garmin splits from last year, when I ran 3:10:26 with a 16-second negative split.
07:20, 07:10, 07:11, 07:16, 07:18, 07:20, 07:13, 07:30, 07:19, 07:09, 07:12, 07:18, 07:13, 07:03, 07:17, 07:12, 07:06, 07:07, 07:10, 07:12, 07:12, 07:17, 07:17, 07:11, 06:53, 07:01, 06:44, (0.42M, 02:49)
Notice that the very downhill first mile was a somewhat restrained 7:20. I was loosely following the 3:13 pace group at that point, but oozed out ahead of them at mile 4 or so. I went a little faster after mile 10 because (a) I was running with a couple a other guys and (b) it was feeling right. I was able to sustain those faster paces when the course flattened out , even popping out a couple of sub-7's. That was how I caught Dwave. This was my seventh time running this course, and I think I got it right.
As for your Kayaking question, I live right on the Oakland Estuary, so that's been my out-the-door trip so far. I have also been doing practice session is a swimming pool up in Richmond, where a bunch of us practice rolling and other stupid kayak tricks, while trying not to collide with each other (much). The ITB thing appeared during one of those. I'm going to give that a rest for a while, and make some adjustments to the fit of my kayak.