2019 3:20, And Beyond (Read 389 times)

Brewing Runner


Cat Disliker

    N

     

    Brew:  I started with shorter repeats and gradually lengthened them.  So, if you have a 3-mile downhill, you could start by running 0.5 down, turn around and run 0.3 up, then repeat until you get to the bottom.  Over time, make those longer.  I would also recommend some exercises for the proprioceptors, which take more of a beating as well.  I should have done more of that for Old Pueblo, but just didn't have time given work life.

    I've decided to change tomorrow's 4x1.5 mile to a downhill doing something along these lines. It gives me a good idea where I'm at, allows me to beat the muscles I'll be using, and introduces a new aspect to training. Maybe 1 mile down, recovery up, total of 6 because I can add some flat after the downhill just like race day. I never thought of recovering going up. I guess it's always been time/pace which the heart/body doesn't know about. Now to look into those proprioceptors... Thanks omr.

     

    sc I'll take "destroyed after the marathon" if I get the same result as you (BQ plus a few seconds) on race day. Mt. Charleston looks like 2-300'/mi. I appreciate you looking into that. 2 hours is about an average long run these days. Hopefully this fear doesn't make me do ALL downhill miles but SOMETHING should be done. Any specific reason to go for MP - 25 seconds? That seems fast.

     

    This is why I stay here. Good ideas from good people. Again...getting out of the "if you do the workout according to the numbers it will correlate to race day" mentality. Downhill training is probably just as important as tempo runs at this point.

    1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

    5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

    10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

    Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

    Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

    Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

    *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

     

    2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

     


    Speed Surplus

      "Any specific reason to go for MP - 25 seconds? That seems fast."

       

      Well, for one thing, I didn't really know what MP would be. Mainly though, it just felt good to run fast down the mountain after running slowly up it for an hour. My heart rate for that particular run was 155 (and it was 159 avg during the marathon), so it was still a bit "easier" than marathon effort, if that makes sense. (It does not.)

      5:27 / 19:03 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

      darkwave


      Mother of Cats

         

        This is why I stay here. Good ideas from good people. Again...getting out of the "if you do the workout according to the numbers it will correlate to race day" mentality. Downhill training is probably just as important as tempo runs at this point.

         

        I think that for a race like the one you're doing, that's correct.  Tempo work is important, because the higher your lactate threshold, the further beneath it you are at marathon pace, and the more efficiently you burn fuel.  But the most important thing is being able to physically handle your chosen course.  And downhill marathons are less challenging aerobically, making lactate threshold (and being well beneath it) slightly less important.

         

        I would run downhill at marathon effort - which will yield a pace faster than MP on flat terrain.

        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

         

        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

        Brewing Runner


        Cat Disliker

           

           

           

          I would run downhill at marathon effort - which will yield a pace faster than MP on flat terrain.

           

          I think you’re trying to kill me. 165-170 HR downhill. ‘Strength’ means handling the course. I’ll see if I can reschedule some longer runs to get long downhill tempo runs in.

           

          Thanks all.

           

          EDIT: FOUND IT. 2018. Around the time ace had his big win. Exactly what everyone else here said. It's going to be sore but it's better to be sore in training than while racing.

           

          Downhill race: You have to train for them to get the benefit.  Long downhills, pushing a little bit, not coasting.  You want a run/workout every ~3 weeks that makes your quads sore for a day or two afterwards (at least the first 2-3 times you do it, after that you are "immune"/trained for the wear-and-tear).  If you are trained, it's pretty friggin' awesome to go at marathon effort and run downhill on a 2-4% grade.

          1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

          5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

          10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

          Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

          Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

          Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

          *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

           

          2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

           

          berylrunner


          Rick

            I am still around, been reading, just not much to add.  Slowing getting over injury and sickness.  45 mile week with some good gain.  Shifting back to Ultra training but will still try to contribute here.

             

            09-06-19   Last One Standing

             

            10-05-19   St. George Marathon

            Brewing Runner


            Cat Disliker

              beryl good to hear.

               

              Meanwhile....in rlk land....if you want to join a race just bandit according to the locals. Imagine 9 quote.

               

              I'm feeling some stupid sickness again and decided against running hard downhill miles in the "snow" last night. If I had slept a normal amount and ONLY had a cough I'd have been out there. Kids ruin everything. I skipped today with the GOAL being a long 6ish mile downhill at marathon effort run tomorrow after work. Probably a better workout than a few miles broken up.

              1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

              5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

              10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

              Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

              Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

              Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

              *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

               

              2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

               

              CommanderKeen


              Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                Beryl - Good to know you're still around. Get better.


                Brew - Kiddos are little germ magnets. Hopefully the workout goes well tomorrow.


                We're having some crazy winds here! Last night a storm rolled in and winds have been 30+mph ever since, and will probably continue until sometime tomorrow. As much as I want to get on the roads for my workout tomorrow I may get on the treadmill so I can execute it without undue influence by the wind.

                Work FINALLY sent out the email about the internal "lottery" to get an entry into the OKC Marathon in 6 weeks. In reality there's no lottery, since as far as I know everyone gets an entry.

                5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:28:01 4/18 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                 

                Upcoming Races:

                DRC Half 11/3

                Dallas Marathon 12/15

                rlk_117


                Resident Millennial

                  popped back in just in time for a mention..

                   

                  bay to breakers is a pretty wonderful day (saying this as someone who lives 2 blocks off the route) - combining san francisco style weird party thing early on a sunday morning with a race. not many people participate in both of those aspects but we do. i'll be on a centipede costumed as notorious RBG, we'll try to run fast tied together, and then we'll cooldown halfway up the course (the peoplewatching is the best part) and party in the park.

                   

                  hello! what's new around here?

                   

                  running a lot (60-65mpw for awhile now), tired/hungry frequently, not racing 'til april probably...

                  _________________________________________________
                  mile, 5:26 /5k, 19:34 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
                  2019: short distance stuff, summer break, cross country, CIM

                  Brewing Runner


                  Cat Disliker

                    Beryl - Good to know you're still around. Get better.


                    Brew - Kiddos are little germ magnets. Hopefully the workout goes well tomorrow.


                    We're having some crazy winds here! Last night a storm rolled in and winds have been 30+mph ever since, and will probably continue until sometime tomorrow. As much as I want to get on the roads for my workout tomorrow I may get on the treadmill so I can execute it without undue influence by the wind.

                    Work FINALLY sent out the email about the internal "lottery" to get an entry into the OKC Marathon in 6 weeks. In reality there's no lottery, since as far as I know everyone gets an entry.

                    Workout is a go. I'll find out later if I have a ride back to the truck.

                     

                    Did you miss the ENTIRE conversation about "run by feel" and how hitting some specific pace/time doesn't ACTUALLY get you to a specific marathon time? Come on now...it's wind. It blows. You won't die snowflake. Millennials...always complaining about something. (insert whiny voice) it's too cold. im bored of the treadmill. its too windy. The lottery has no losers. my online friends are picking on me because they ran in the wind and I'm chickening out even though I'm a better runner. (end millennial voice).

                     

                    But seriously, go run in it. You might surprise yourself with how little the wind affects you and isn't your marathon like half headwind right in the middle where no one is there to encourage you?

                     

                    rlk so did you get picked for the team? Last I heard it was a toss up and you weren't sure if you'd run it solo. I'll be in the Sunset district so maybe we should, like, idk, shake hands or whatever it is people do IRL. I kinda need a Strava title for that day.

                    1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                    5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                    10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                    Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                    *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                     

                    2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                     

                      Yeah, so a workout in the wind does suck.

                       

                      We're having some winds out here as well.  I was supposed to do my 'big' workout yesterday at lunch (6X1600 at threshold pace and then a few 200's) but it would have meant 3 of those 1600s would be directly into the wind, and 3 with a tailwind.  Two 'out' (into the wind), two 'back' (with the wind), one 'out', one 'back'.  Yech. I rationalized that tomorrow (today) would likely be calmer so just did an easy 6 miles.  Big Negatori!  Same or worse wind today but I got 'er dun (said in Larry the cable guy's voice).

                       

                      Ya know, the toughest part is getting yourself out there and starting the workout, not so bad once you're into it.

                      PRs

                      AceHarris


                        kcam: I had the exact sentiment you did about "just getting out there and doing it" yesterday. I wasn't able to run in the morning and then spent 2 hours at a gymnastics place with my kids jumping around and climbing in and out of a foam pit. My legs were tired, it was super windy, the track I was going to run on was unavailable. I felt tired and tight on my warmup. I almost bailed, but thought, I'll see how rep 1 goes. Plan was 6 x 800 VO2. First rep went well, so I got through the workout, but I really did not want to start it, but so glad I did.

                        Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 18:10 (2017), 10k: 38:25 (2017, course was 6.1), HM: 1:25:16 (2018), M: 2:57:18 (2018)


                        Speed Surplus

                          Possible taper madness warning - my hip/quad was a little sore after yesterday's run. Though it would be gone by this morning, but it wasn't. 

                           

                          I took an aleve and I'm shutting it down until Sunday. Fingers crossed.

                          5:27 / 19:03 / 40:32 / 88:12 / 3:12

                          Katia77


                             

                             

                            kk ain't you due this week, or did you already pop? I keep messing the day up.

                             

                            Long run Saturday included talking to a man with a 4,100+ day running streak while running with RB doing the marathon. I commented RB was an 8 mile/week runner and now gets up around 6am to run at 7am. Streaker pretty much said you just have to get the routine going. Also, once you hit triple digits it's kind of a thing you keep going with.  Off to go re-read about how I'm supposed to be training for downhills like every 3 weeks by doing hard downhill runs. The fear of a 4-10% downhill run is becoming scarier and scarier only because of the non-stop hill AND I once heard about doing an all downhill marathon in Utah and the flat became VERY challenging.

                             

                            Race course is 5,100' drop. CIM is the only "downhill" course I've run at about 350' drop. The overwhelming majority of my running is flattish. Not really what I'd say "extended downhill" running would entail. 1.5 miles of 2-4% downhill isn't the same as 21 miles of downhill.

                             

                             

                            So, this may be an unpopular opinion BUT I've also run a fair amount of downhill races and been successful so, take that for what it's worth.  I don't think I ever really bothered doing too many MP on downhills in training.  I live in a valley, so most of my LRs had a fair amount of uphill for 3-4 miles straight, and downhill for about the same. I never did more than that, never sought out downhills, etc.  I've always kinda felt like I was JOGGING on downhill marathons for at leas the first 15 miles. THat includes Top of Utah, where the first 15-18 miles are downhill, and the rest is flat.  It worked for me, and I was able to pick up the pace and negative split it. 5100 is a STEEP drop, but I just don't think you can hammer it in the beginning if you want to survive.  That said, I've never TRIED to really push pace at ALL in the beginning of one of these, so no personal experience there. I did one 10K where it was close to an all-out sprint, but I mean, it was a 10K and the last mile was flat, and I was still able to pick it up if I remember correctly.  Happy to answer specific questions, but I've never trained for "downhill" and been fine.  I happen to just live in Utah where most marathons ARE downhill so I've run a bunch. 

                            Also -- my C-section is in 6 days, on March 21, to answer your question Smile

                            PRs: HM: 1:32:59 (2015); FM: 3:18:36 (2017)

                            CommanderKeen


                            Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                              Brew - I was there for that conversation! I've completely switched over to using Stryd power and perceived effort for training - I took pace off of my workout watch screens (had removed it from easy run settings years ago). If I was seriously running that marathon I would have run the workout on the roads. As it is, not having a serious goal race kinda kills my motivation to go out alone and in bad conditions, and using the treadmill does allow me to nail exactly the efforts I want to.
                              The mocking, whiny voice was amusing! But what millennial ever whined about everyone "winning"??
                              Nice work on that downhill workout.


                              KCam - 6x 1600 is a pretty massive workout, nice job.


                              Ace - Good job sticking with the workout and getting it done.


                              SClever - Surely it'll be gone before Sunday.


                              Katia - Your post makes complete sense. I think regular running up and down short(er) hills is better than usually running flats plus doing a few bigger hill specific workouts in most cases.

                              Have everything in order for the new baby?

                               


                              More complaints: The town covered one mile of dirt road (starting at the 3-way intersection by my house) in massive chunks of gravel, which I've avoided since as it feels like it's an ankle turn risk and the ditches are too steep to run in as well. I've been going around that since (taking a perpendicular road from that intersection), but today noticed that they seem to be starting the process of ruining (graveling) that road as well. It looks like all of my runs may end up being out-and-backs, or involve adding a couple extra miles and finishing on a much busier road (no sidewalks) until neighborhoods are build out enough to let me skip that major road. Or perhaps I can find a way of going cross-country for just a bit...

                              5k: 18:25 10/19 (solo track TT) │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:28:01 4/18 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                               

                              Upcoming Races:

                              DRC Half 11/3

                              Dallas Marathon 12/15

                              Brewing Runner


                              Cat Disliker

                                 

                                 

                                So, this may be an unpopular opinion BUT I've also run a fair amount of downhill races and been successful so, take that for what it's worth.  I don't think I ever really bothered doing too many MP on downhills in training.  I live in a valley, so most of my LRs had a fair amount of uphill for 3-4 miles straight, and downhill for about the same. I never did more than that, never sought out downhills, etc.  I've always kinda felt like I was JOGGING on downhill marathons for at leas the first 15 miles. THat includes Top of Utah, where the first 15-18 miles are downhill, and the rest is flat.  It worked for me, and I was able to pick up the pace and negative split it. 5100 is a STEEP drop, but I just don't think you can hammer it in the beginning if you want to survive.  That said, I've never TRIED to really push pace at ALL in the beginning of one of these, so no personal experience there. I did one 10K where it was close to an all-out sprint, but I mean, it was a 10K and the last mile was flat, and I was still able to pick it up if I remember correctly.  Happy to answer specific questions, but I've never trained for "downhill" and been fine.  I happen to just live in Utah where most marathons ARE downhill so I've run a bunch. 

                                Also -- my C-section is in 6 days, on March 21, to answer your question Smile

                                 

                                I looked back and discovered the date from one of the last posts. I just didn't bother to update it. Also, good advice on the beginning and I kind of learned how it felt to run downhill last night. I don't take many opportunities to run downhill 3+ miles mostly because I don't want to run down them that hard after running up them on a long run. I think I'd benefit from doing some up/back workouts instead of flat fast miles though. Half to learn the feel of running downhill hard, half to strengthen the leg muscles and half because hills should probably be part of training.

                                 

                                sc you'll be fine. If you feel better you can go look at my race from last year again.

                                 

                                keen I'm sure there is a millennial who'd complain they didn't win "by enough" or something. I don't keep track of ALL of them. Good luck running that marathon "for funzies" because I don't know anyone who has ever successfully run a marathon and had fun. UPSIDE...you avoid marathon training. Downside...ultra marathon training DGAF! wait....you can't run on a gravel road? (insert millennial voice)...

                                 

                                https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3463195376

                                 

                                Last night went well. I felt some soreness in the hamstrings (not what I expected at all) in the shower after when standing on one foot. I had a light IT band type pain around mile 5-6 of the run (1.2 mile warm up) and it was cold enough outside I wished I had gloves, my legs felt numb/cold so I feared pushing too hard and it appears to be a very similar elevation profile as my race. I tried to lean into the downhill to avoid leaning back, keeping the legs loose between strides so MAYBE I'd only contract them fully when planted, the cold air/wind probably simulated started for a cold race, and the heart rate RARELY hit marathon effort (165ish) compared to flat M paced (6:50-7:00) miles. This was the ONLY thing I had to base it on. I switched the watch to show HR only and didn't look at the mile splits. I knew I was going fast because of the downhill, I hit almost every green light (Thanks folks) and figured a 158 downhill heart rate was good. Going faster just seemed like it would do more harm than good. Either I'd start overstriding, or I'd just beat the PISS out of my legs beyond "normal" or what I expected. Kind of like...."What is the benefit of doing 5:30 pace? What is the consequence?" you're not doing that on raceday. I had NO CLUE (as state) I was doing a 6:00 pace. I expected 6:30s. Other than running fast and having sore legs I wasn't sure what to expect.

                                 

                                My only expectation was sore legs. I don't have sore legs. Literally would have run if I wasn't pissed at my boss (I'd think about it the whole time) and I had someone to distract me (everyone is out prepping for 5ks.) from myself. I think the TRX workouts after hard training runs have helped (thanks again dw/rlk) and I skipped it last night just to see how ONLY the run would make them feel. Something I thought was interesting is how easy the uphill towards the end of the run felt. The last 0.30 was uphill and I just powered through it.

                                 

                                Maybe these Nike Zoom Flys have something going for them. I set a new 5K and probably 10K record in my Garmin and some other stuff on Strava. I will probably do this again next Thursday with RB who has never run a downhill marathon, or a marathon, or even 17 miles.

                                1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                                5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                                10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                                Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                                Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                                Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                                *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                                 

                                2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon