Forums >Racing>Pftizinger races
Option 4: Run a tempo or marathon paced run on Saturday then do your usual long run on Sunday.
Usually when you see this pattern in a training plan (race followed by long run), the goal is to get some race paced effort on the day before the long run. The long run will be at an easy effort so you can recover for the continued training. This is late in the schedule for racing so unless you need a confidence booster, I'd skip it.
Edited to add
I have seen #3 used in training as a sort of marathon simulator in which you run 20 miles the day before a 10K race to simulate the last 6.2 miles of the marathon being raced on tired legs and all. I think this would be done earlier in the program because such an effort requires much more recovery than a normal weekend's training. Remember to ask yourself "what is the training goal here?" Just because you "can" do something doesn't necessarily mean that you "should".
"Shut up Legs!" Jens Voigt
Caffeine-fueled Runner
Pfitzinger is my favorite amongst training plans I've tried. I'd go with option 2 but wouldn't sweat it because you are so far into the training that this is more polishing than anything else.
PR's--- 5K 24:11, 10K 49:40, 10-Mile 1:26:02, HM 1:56:03, Marathon 4:16:17
Maniac #11112, Fanatic #14276, Double Agent #2335
Thanks so much for the suggestions!
I actually didn't consider skipping the race since I already paid for it (Only 30-40 dollars) but I think this is what I will probably do. I will most likely do a short tempo/time trial Saturday and then long run Sunday. I think this will be the safer plan since I have been feeling good about this training cycle and just want to stay healthy at this point.
I have been doing the 70/18 pfitzinger schedule and following really consistently with the exception of the last couple weeks. I had a half marathon and with the added speed work I felt I needed more recovery and wanted to prioritize staying healthy and keeping quality over keeping up the volume. I kept the spirit of the plan the last couple weeks though. Thanks again for helping me figure this out. It was also interesting seeing what others have done in the past. I appreciate the help!
It sounds like you've made your decision, but it also sounds like you were interested in running it.
It seems like most people were against #3, so let's look at that.
1) Higher risk of injury: How would the risk of injury be any higher than running a race Saturday and the long run Sunday? Simply switching the days does not place your body under more or less stress. It's still a long run and still a race in a two day period, and people do that all the time.
2) Not a true race predictor effort: It's a tuneup race. You can use it for a race predictor if you want, but you don't have to, and I wouldn't. A tuneup race can be used to physically and mentally prepare you for the hurt of a race. It can give you a chance to practice your pre-race routine. If you run your long run the day before a race, you would be training through the race, so you'd have to take that into consideration and realize that the race could be slower, and it won't change your goal for the marathon.
What if your race was on a Saturday, and it was unusually hot? Would you not run it because it wasn't a true race predictor? No. You'd run it, and realize that it was hot and it's not going to affect your plan for the marathon--same as training through the race. You've been training at certain paces for the last 18 weeks, one 10k shouldn't affect that. This is a tuneup race to practice effort.
3) Not a good thing to do anytime, stupid idea and probably even dumber than skipping both of the runs: No reasons given, so feelz and hyperbole?
4) Usually the race is before the long run because the long run will be run at an easy effort: Provided you stay within your pace ranges, if the long run is an easy run after the race, why is it not an easy run before the race? Therefore, a race on Saturday followed by long run looks like this: easy, race, easy. A long run on Saturday followed by race on Sunday looks like this: easy, race easy.
5) Requires more recovery than a normal weekend's training: You're two weeks out from the marathon, and I assume that the plan will have you starting your taper. I'm sure your volume (along with some of he quality volume) will be reduced over the next two weeks, so you'll have time plenty of time to recover.
My point is not that you should do #3, but that you shouldn't rule something out if there isn't a good reason. If you want to run the race, run the race. I mean, you paid, right?
Good luck with your marathon!
There was a point in my life when I ran. Now, I just run.
We are always running for the thrill of it
Always pushing up the hill, searching for the thrill of it
late to discussion, but this is my preferred option.
You could also do your long run on Saturday and run the 10k at marathon pace. When I did the Higdon plans, he had 10 mile MP runs on Saturday followed by long runs on Sunday toward the end. Some weeks I switched if the weather was better on Saturday. It was still practice running on tired legs. Since you recently did a HM, you don't really need the race to determine your race pace, so just go for the fun of being in a race. Running it at your MP will give you a chance to practice reining in your speed.
RIP Milkman
For all of you who say order doesn't matter: it most certainly does. I've included an example below, but just qualitatively, think about structuring a weekend. I could easily do a 60 minute easy run on Saturday which has almost no impact on a 3 hour long run Sunday. However, if I were to reverse that, my 60 minute easy run would be fairly difficult on Sunday after a 3 hour long run on Saturday. Obviously the order matters.
More mathy: Take this example where each run causes a certain amount of "fatigue." Could call it injury risk too, but fatigue is probably easier. You also recover at a certain ratio, probably around the length of your easy runs, meaning you could run an easy run each day and recover fully. So it would look something like this:
Easy run of 8 miles = 20% Fatigue
Long run of 20 miles = 50% Fatigue
Recovery per day = 20% Fatigue Reduction
If I run 8 miles Saturday and 20 on Sunday, my fatigue would go up to 20% after the 8 miler, reduce back to 0% Sunday morning, and then go up to 50% Sunday after the run.
Reverse that now. You get up to 50% fatigue on Saturday, but you start your easy run on Sunday at 30% fatigue and ratchet it back up to 50% by the end of the run.
You tell me which one has a higher risk: the one where the weekend has one run at 50% fatigue, or the one where the weekend has two runs at 50% fatigue.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
For all of you who say order doesn't matter: it most certainly does. I've included an example below, but just qualitatively, think about structuring a weekend. I could easily do a 60 minute easy run on Saturday which has almost no impact on a 3 hour long run Sunday. However, if I were to reverse that, my 60 minute easy run would be fairly difficult on Sunday after a 3 hour long run on Saturday. Obviously the order matters. More mathy: Take this example where each run causes a certain amount of "fatigue." Could call it injury risk too, but fatigue is probably easier. You also recover at a certain ratio, probably around the length of your easy runs, meaning you could run an easy run each day and recover fully. So it would look something like this: Easy run of 8 miles = 20% Fatigue Long run of 20 miles = 50% Fatigue Recovery per day = 20% Fatigue Reduction If I run 8 miles Saturday and 20 on Sunday, my fatigue would go up to 20% after the 8 miler, reduce back to 0% Sunday morning, and then go up to 50% Sunday after the run. Reverse that now. You get up to 50% fatigue on Saturday, but you start your easy run on Sunday at 30% fatigue and ratchet it back up to 50% by the end of the run. You tell me which one has a higher risk: the one where the weekend has one run at 50% fatigue, or the one where the weekend has two runs at 50% fatigue.
Where are these numbers coming from? It sounds like you're equating fatigue with injury risk, so are you saying there's a 50% chance of injury risk? What is an acceptable amount of injury risk or fatigue? How did you determine the fatigue reduction percentage?
Also the question was specifically about doing 2 hard efforts, 2 days in a row: a race and a long run. Obviously one of them is going to be done in an already somewhat fatigued state--that's literally the point.
Runners run
If it is just a tune up race and not a goal 10K then just switch your Saturday and Sunday. Racing on tired legs is a good way to simulate fatigue late in a marathon. Marathon training is all about cumulative fatigue.
Also, if a 17 mile easy paced run wears you out to the point where you can't make an honest effort to race a 10k the next day then I would question whether racing a marathon two weeks later would be advisable. You might not have quite the kick you normally would at the end of a 10k on rested legs, but other than that it should be of little effect.
If you really wanted to play it safe, maybe cut the 17 down to 14 and either add the 3 somewhere else during the week, or not.
Regarding a similar question, someone on here that is smarter than I am once gave the advice that "These workouts are not a laser-guided surgical strike, they are a blunt instrument."
I think that quote fits pretty well in this instance.
We are the music makers,
And we are the dreamers of dreams,
Wandering by lone sea-breakers,
And sitting by desolate streams;
World-losers and world-forsakers,
On whom the pale moon gleams:
Yet we are the movers and shakers
Of the world for ever, it seems.
That's why I called it fatigue and not injury risk. Clearly they are not the same. I can be almost completely out of gas in a race (100% fatigued) and I obviously do not have 100% injury risk.
Don't worry about the numbers, they were just illustrative. My point was more that you guys are not factoring into account recovery and the fact that it is not a zero sum game. It is not 2+3 = 5 and 3+2 = 5. There is a recovery factor as I stated in my example that ruins those equations.
You guys are also equating all hard efforts as the same, which is clearly not true. Put this another way: which do you think is harder/more chance of injury: racing a marathon the day after racing a one mile race, or racing a one mile race the day after a marathon? I think it's pretty obvious that racing the one mile race the day after a marathon is exponentially more risky than vice versa. I can't even walk the day after a marathon, let alone race. I almost certainly could race a marathon the day after a one miler.
You could disagree with me on the 1 miler/Marathon, but then you'd be wrong
In these cases Jack Daniels in his 2Q program (I know you're not following his program, but still...) would suggest to do your race and then move your long run to replace the workout you usually would have on the following Tuesday or Wednesday.
5k: 20:32 (1/17) | HM: 1:34:37 (2/18) | FM: 3:31:37 (3/18)
Getting back into it
Take this example where each run causes a certain amount of "fatigue." Could call it injury risk too, but fatigue is probably easier.
Don't worry about the numbers? I think that's the point. There isn't anything to say that running a 17 mile long run, then a 10k the next day puts you at more injury risk then doing it the other way. I have yet to see that there is a significant difference. Most distance running injuries are about loads over time--repeatedly doing more than your body can handle. I don't see that in this case.
We know there is a recovery factor. I don't think anyone is arguing that. In fact, Mikey noted that there will be fatigue, and you probably will run a little slower.
A mile after a marathon seems pretty different from a 10k after a long run.
Running, improvement, and injury are bigger than one weekend. A body can handle a long run followed by a race if the lead up to it has been smart. Out of 18 weeks, flipping two days like this won't hurt you.
The whole point is that the injury risk is probably a lot lower than most people advising against option 3 believe. The question is why do they believe that?
Your build up is pretty solid. You could do them in any order, or not do one, or the other, or either, and you’re probably going to end up with the same good marathon result in a couple of weeks. At this point there’s probably not a physiological answer, and only psych ones. Do whatever gives you confidence.
Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and roguesWe're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes