3 Hour Long Run - How Often (Read 2921 times)

    Jeff,

     

    There are so many variables that it can be very difficult, to put it mildly,  to sort through it all and draw clear cut conclusions. How much of your ultra success had to do with talent? What would have happened if you'd run several 3-hr runs in the months leading up to it? What was your weight when you ran this race and what was it when you ran another? What were your workouts like? What were you short race times and how about the longer ones? The list goes on and on and on. There just isn't enough time in our lives to try all the combinations necessary to be completely confident as to what works best.

     

    I've sifted through my logs time and time again trying to figure it all out. For sure there are some patterns that really shed some light but there will always remain some gray. Sometimes the best I could come up with was biorhythms or some other nonsense. For such a simple activity as running, trying to  figure it all out can be tricky at times.

     

    The best I can come up and feel a strong sense of conviction is "run as much as you can and don't run too hard on your easy days"

    Age 60 plus best times: 5k 19:00, 10k 38:35, 10m 1:05:30, HM 1:24:09, 30k 2:04:33
    Scout7


       Yes, and I would add that each person has his/her own desires and goals.  Sometimes on this thread, it seems like the posters are talking different languages.

       

      I agree with your first sentence; that's the nature of interactions.

       

      But your second sentence is confusing to me.  I'm not sure what you mean.

         

         


        miles 27-30 were straight uphill

        "If you have the fire, run..." -John Climacus


        Why is it sideways?

          Jeff,

           

          There are so many variables that it can be very difficult, to put it mildly,  to sort through it all and draw clear cut conclusions. How much of your ultra success had to do with talent? What would have happened if you'd run several 3-hr runs in the months leading up to it? What was your weight when you ran this race and what was it when you ran another? What were your workouts like? What were you short race times and how about the longer ones? The list goes on and on and on. There just isn't enough time in our lives to try all the combinations necessary to be completely confident as to what works best.

           

          I've sifted through my logs time and time again trying to figure it all out. For sure there are some patterns that really shed some light but there will always remain some gray. Sometimes the best I could come it with was biorhythms or some other nonsense. For such a simple activity as running, try to  figure it all it can be tricky at times.

           

          The best I can come up and feel a strong sense of conviction is "run as much as you can and don't run too hard on your easy days"

           

          Definitely. I can say with a feeling of conviction, though, that 3 hour runs are not necessary for good marathon training, even for the 4 hour marathoner. Is there a place for them in training? The best answer I can give is "maybe."

           

          "Run as much as you can and don't run too hard on your easy days" is a good general principle for sure.

           

          I just dropped out of my most recent marathon attempt. Some days you "have it." Some days you don't. (I was sick.) Those biorhythm differences get amplified in the marathon because you don't have a second chance. But at the newbie level, I think those biorhythm differences are less important.

           

          Part of what is at issue here is what counts as "proper training." If the goal is to get through a marathon and mark it off the list, then by all means, do specific training--run close the marathon distance as often as you can. That's proper training for that goal. But if the goal is to develop as a runner over the long term, then you need to gradually and over time build your ability to handle intensity and extension. Making the marathon your goal as an new runner is like trying to make a freshly planted rose bush grow as tall as possible. You can make it grow tall, quickly, with certain gardening techniques, but at what price?

            As much as I like to take opposite sides I have to admit that I can't make a clear connection between number of 20-mile training runs and marathon success. However the clearest connection by far that I can make between success at all distances including the the marathon is annual mileage. Without exception...and I have a pretty large sample...the years when I've run the most miles are the ones I've run my best races.

             

             

            Well said.

            Runners run


            i sacrificed the gift

              EVERY single person on this message board is a hobby marathoner at best.

               

               

              Yeah what I meant was, people will read that article and think "hum why do elites run 22 miles in training then?"  well elites can run 22 miles in training in the amount of time (and training stress) that it takes us to run 16.

              Robot House Recovery Drink Protocol:
              Under 70 Degrees: Samuel Smith's Oatmeal Stout
              Over 70 Degrees: Dougfish Head 60 Minute IPA


              Best Present Ever

                 

                Right but I think part of the point some are making is that the 20 milers (otherwise known as 3 hour runs) are unnecessary, even for the 4-hour marathoner.  All you can do by looking at the runs you did prior to a performance is affirm the consequent.

                 As a 4 hour marathoner, I'm not sure what to think of this thread.  It doesn't  make sense to me that I could expect to run faster during a marathon (but faster for me would be 3:50, so still close to 4 hours) if my longest run is only abou 1/2 the time (and perhaps even less than 1/2 the distance) of a marathon.  Really, I'd like to be faster, I'm disciplined and consistent, but can't for the life of me see a particular strategy that will get me there.  It's too late for the genetic endowment many of you seem to have (not that hard work doesn't go along with that). 

                 

                Seriously folks.  I hear consistently high mileage.  I'm trying my best there, and my best is only maintaining 50 mile weeks, barring injury, but that's likely the best I can do.  If you say it's not the long (3+ hour runs), what exactly is it?   Do I just have to wait until I've put in the miles over years?  Should I be lamenting my wasted non-running youth?   What exactly does the intensity-extension tension look like over a week's or month's worth of runs?  I googled "william james" but he doesn't seem to have published any training plans.

                 

                <scratching head in confusion> 

                 


                Why is it sideways?

                   As a 4 hour marathoner, I'm not sure what to think of this thread.  It doesn't  make sense to me that I could expect to run faster during a marathon (but faster for me would be 3:50, so still close to 4 hours) if my longest run is only abou 1/2 the time (and perhaps even less than 1/2 the distance) of a marathon.  Really, I'd like to be faster, I'm disciplined and consistent, but can't for the life of me see a particular strategy that will get me there.  It's too late for the genetic endowment many of you seem to have (not that hard work doesn't go along with that). 

                   

                  Seriously folks.  I hear consistently high mileage.  I'm trying my best there, and my best is only maintaining 50 mile weeks, barring injury, but that's likely the best I can do.  If you say it's not the long (3+ hour runs), what exactly is it?   Do I just have to wait until I've put in the miles over years?  Should I be lamenting my wasted non-running youth?   What exactly does the intensity-extension tension look like over a week's or month's worth of runs?  I googled "william james" but he doesn't seem to have published any training plans.

                   

                  <scratching head in confusion> 

                   

                   

                  Sweet.

                     As a 4 hour marathoner, I'm not sure what to think of this thread.  It doesn't  make sense to me that I could expect to run faster during a marathon (but faster for me would be 3:50, so still close to 4 hours) if my longest run is only abou 1/2 the time (and perhaps even less than 1/2 the distance) of a marathon.  Really, I'd like to be faster, I'm disciplined and consistent, but can't for the life of me see a particular strategy that will get me there.  It's too late for the genetic endowment many of you seem to have (not that hard work doesn't go along with that). 

                     

                    <scratching head in confusion> 

                     

                     MO3, I had the exact same reaction as I am planning on my first marathon next year.  Then I went over that RT Hanson Brothers program posted by Robot House a couple of pages earlier http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4447

                     

                    As you can see,  there is a lot of intensity built into that program, and the residual fatigue of those workouts probably will give the same or better training stimulus in the 16 miler than a regular 20 miler without the intensity.  Also if you add up the mileage it tops out over 50 MPW anyway. 

                     

                    So to me it just means that getting the 50 MPW with workouts is more important than focusing on getting the 20 miler in and then slog through the rest of the week.  The MP runs and the speed work will probably give us a better result than the standard 20 mile long run programs.

                      I think that's the hardest part of coming to grips with the fact that the long run is not the silver bullet:  the daunting reality that, hey, maybe this means there really is no silver bullet at all.

                      Runners run


                      Best Present Ever

                        Thanks HMH.  That was helpful -- I'd missed the link.

                          I've been running for over 20 years, mostly for fun and fitness,, but always wanting to be better. Did I put enough skin in the game to really get better, certainly not yet. I've only run 2 marathons, my most recent was earlier this year (4:11). The points here are good ones, obviously.  Part of the deal here is confidence. Trying to race as fast as you can for 26.2 miles requires confidence in your ability. If the short term reality is that you will be out there near 4 hours, confidence is not going to be high if your longest recent effort is 2.5 hours. That's one side.

                           

                          Some of the guys posting here that are experienced runners and faster than most of us, are saying (I think) that the measure of your training, even 4:00 marathoners, is not the number of 20+ runs or 3:00+ runs in a specific training cycle, but rather a longer term approach of improvement for which there is no real benefit to hammering yourself into the ground for 3 hours week after week,, just to boost confidence. Your confidence should come from consistency, mileage and extending your ability to run hard for longer periods.

                           

                          There is some well intended schooling here. I'm sure the mike's and jeff's of the world get the fact that slower runners need the reassurance of 20 milers,,, but we should understand that while those slog fests might provide some reassurance, it's just that. But it is not the optimal way to train for the long term.

                           

                          As I contemplate another marathon race in the future, I'll try to remember the points made here.

                           

                          I hope I did not misrepresent anyone's point of view.

                           

                          Thanks 

                          Scout7


                            Workouts don't dictate performance.  As this thread has effectively proven, one cannot say that X number of a certain workout gives Y performance for a given race distance.  Workouts influence performance.

                             

                            We try like hell to find the right mix to give us what we want.  Unfortunately, it's never that simple.  Some people are better at finding the mix in themselves, some people are better at finding it in others (they tend to be called "coaches").  But really, there is no plan, no set of workouts, no exact mix that gets us all to our goals.  The best we can really do is boil it down to pithy phrases that are short on definitive statements and long on personal evaluation (Run lots, mostly easy, sometimes hard).

                             

                            What really gets ya is the fact that the workouts that you used this year may not be so beneficial next year, or the year after that.  We are constantly changing, and having to monitor those changes in a macroscopic way.

                             

                            This is a long way of agreeing with Mikey, the silver bullet does not exist.  If it did, the only real separator between people would be genetics.  And honestly, I don't think I want that anyway.

                               There is some well intended schooling here. I'm sure the mike's and jeff's of the world get the fact that slower runners need the reassurance of 20 milers,,, but we should understand that while those slog fests might provide some reassurance, it's just that. But it is not the optimal way to train for the long term.

                               

                              RIGHT ON ------  the Mikes, Jeffs and Nobby's of the world have always given me good advice and when I take their advice (sometimes based on faith) I usually end up a little stronger and more knowledgeable and a better runner.    

                               

                              I'm going to change my approach based on the advice of more experienced (and better runners) and I think I'll be OK..

                               

                              And, thanks to everyone that responded on this thread -- I got a lot out of it and I'm glad I asked the question (even if the answers I got were not what I expected, I got what I needed)......I wont be running many more 2:44 runs and 3 hr runs are totally of my screen now...

                               

                              Thanks Everyone

                              Champions are made when no one is watching

                              Trent


                              Good Bad & The Monkey

                                Why must a 20 miler be a "slog fest"?