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The Pocatello Kid.

So I read Canova on RunningTimes, and it got me thinking. He does marathon pace runs up to 17-24 at MP (actually 90-95% of MP).

So my first problem is how to calculate a percentage of a pace. Applying percentages to paces is not something I was taught in grade school. So real easy, I'm assuming I convert a time into seconds. 7 minute marathon would be 420 seconds. that is 100% of Marathon pace. 5-10% slower would be 21 seconds to 42 seconds slower. Therefore training pace for these long runs would be 7:21-7:42?

Talking about doing a MP run up to 24 miles sounds absolutely insane to me, but 5-10% slower makes it completely sane. If you are looking to run a marathon at 7 minute pace, I would assume your easy long runs are probably coming in somewhere just under 8s and your harder long runs are coming in somewhere under 7:30, probably finishing somewhere very close to 7s. This would seem "normal" for most hobby jogging runners seriously going after that BQ or PR.

Agree/Disagree?

mileage hound

So I read Canova on RunningTimes, and it got me thinking. He does marathon pace runs up to 17-24 at MP (actually 90-95% of MP).

I'm sure HE doesn't do them...his freakishly talented and speedy Kenyan elite marathoners do.  And a 24 mile MP run takes around 1:50 or a bit more for them.  One should stop thinking of applying this to their training right there, unless their racing speed approaches such levels.

A 3-hour marathoner doing 24 miles at MP is a completely different workout than an elite, 2:03-2:06 marathoner doing 24 miles at MP.  The 3-hour marathoner would be better to think of what their 2-hour race distance is, and think of what it would be to do a 1:40 workout at that pace.  Then take it down to 1:20-1:30 to account for the fact that they are not freakishly talented with a give for uber-speed recovery.

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ilanarama

ski bum

My peak workout for CIM was 2 mile warm-up followed by 17 miles at MP+5-10%.  It was really hard but felt good.  I only did one workout like this, though.

Ilana is awesome. She lives in a cool place, drinks good beer, and runs hard. She should start a fucking lifestyle blog for chicks. - NC Runner

PRs: 5K 21:03 (4/2012) 10K 43:06 (12/2011) 13.1 1:35:55 (10/2013) 26.2 3:23:31 (12/2013)

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I'm back!

So my first problem is how to calculate a percentage of a pace. Applying percentages to paces is not something I was taught in grade school. So real easy, I'm assuming I convert a time into seconds. 7 minute marathon would be 420 seconds. that is 100% of Marathon pace. 5-10% slower would be 21 seconds to 42 seconds slower. Therefore training pace for these long runs would be 7:21-7:42?

The other way to do it would be to work in MPH. Then, taking 5-10% off has a very clear meaning. Which is not quite the same as what you are doing… to take an extreme, 50% slower by MPH would mean taking twice as long to run a mile; doing it your way, that would translate to 100% slower.

But the difference hardly matters when the range is near the original pace, and so broad anyway.

Oh, and yes, a 7-minute marathon would be 420 seconds. I am assuming you are doing this in an airplane.

The Pocatello Kid.

Definitely pretty hard but I'm sure a good confidence boost

My peak workout for CIM was 2 mile warm-up followed by 17 miles at MP+5-10%.  It was really hard but felt good.  I only did one workout like this, though.

Maybe this will help. From: http://www.runningwritings.com/2012/06/elite-marathoning-with-renato-canova.html

A Note on Renato Canova's math

Renato Canova computes many of the paces he prescribes based on percentages of an athlete's personal record.  It's important to discuss how this is calculated, because it is not straightforward.  For example, if we say "run at 90% of 5:00 mile pace," many people would divide 5:00 by 0.90 and get 5:33.3 minutes per mile.  Renato, however, does his math differently.  To him, deviations from PR pace are measured quite literally in per cent—parts of one hundredth of the original pace.  So, when Renato says "90% of 5:00 pace," he means "10% slower than 5:00 pace."  To compute this, you do the following:

5:00/100*10 + 5:00 = 5:30 pace

Here are two simple formulas that will aid you in calculating "Renato Canova percents":

To calculate the resultant pace N by going P percent of race race (RP)

N = RP*(2-P/100)

As you can verify yourself, this formula works equally well if P is greater or less than 100 percent.  For 110% of 5-minute mile pace, N = 5*(2-110/100) = 4.5 minutes per mile, or 4:30 mile pace.  For 90% of 5k pace, N = 5*(2-90/100) = 5.5 minutes per mile or 5:30 mile pace.

To calculate what percentage P (faster or slower) than race pace (RP) some new pace N is, use:

P = 100*(2-N/RP)

Maybe this will help. From: http://www.runningwritings.com/2012/06/elite-marathoning-with-renato-canova.html

A Note on Renato Canova's math

Renato Canova computes many of the paces he prescribes based on percentages of an athlete's personal record.  It's important to discuss how this is calculated, because it is not straightforward.  For example, if we say "run at 90% of 5:00 mile pace," many people would divide 5:00 by 0.90 and get 5:33.3 minutes per mile.  Renato, however, does his math differently.  To him, deviations from PR pace are measured quite literally in per cent—parts of one hundredth of the original pace.  So, when Renato says "90% of 5:00 pace," he means "10% slower than 5:00 pace."  To compute this, you do the following:

5:00/100*10 + 5:00 = 5:30 pace

Here are two simple formulas that will aid you in calculating "Renato Canova percents":

To calculate the resultant pace N by going P percent of race race (RP)

N = RP*(2-P/100)

As you can verify yourself, this formula works equally well if P is greater or less than 100 percent.  For 110% of 5-minute mile pace, N = 5*(2-110/100) = 4.5 minutes per mile, or 4:30 mile pace.  For 90% of 5k pace, N = 5*(2-90/100) = 5.5 minutes per mile or 5:30 mile pace.

To calculate what percentage P (faster or slower) than race pace (RP) some new pace N is, use:

P = 100*(2-N/RP)

I agree with those above, If you want to even try to translate the workouts of elites to non-elites, convert distances to time, and then run the same time. Meaning if you read someone did 18 miles at race pace for a marathon, then figure out what that was in minutes. That might be 90 minutes or less for an elite. Then take your marathon pace and do a workout holding it for 90 minutes. Don't try for 18 miles.

Same for track repeats. If I want to duplicate Galen Rupp doing mile repeats at 5k pace? Well, he's doing his repeats at what, 4:15-4:20 pace? For me that might be 1000s or 1200s. Not miles. and then I would do them at my 5k pace. (And because I am older and not nearly as fit, I'd probably add some recovery time.)

But that only works if the workout is something that fits into your training and goals. Galen Rupp is getting ready to peak for world indoors. I'm just trying to get into shape and build a base, loose some weight. Running 1000 meter repeats doesn't fit into my training right now. Maybe they will in 3-6 months. Maybe later I'll be finishign preparations for a series championship 5k age group race. I hear about Galen's awesome hill workout at high altitude. Again probably not the right workout for that time in my training...

I definately encourage people to try to understand the principles behind the training plans and apply them. Canova obviously has had some great results. There are many good things to take from his ideas.

-Kelly

Getting back in shape... Just need it to be a skinnier shape...

ulikunkel

Keep in mind that Canova probably is not giving everything away.  He is coaching the Chinese national marathon team and would probably be put in jail for giving up secrets.  He seems to be one of those "I'll tell you what I do but what I really do is slightly different" kind of guys.

So I read Canova on RunningTimes, and it got me thinking. He does marathon pace runs up to 17-24 at MP (actually 90-95% of MP).

So my first problem is how to calculate a percentage of a pace. Applying percentages to paces is not something I was taught in grade school. So real easy, I'm assuming I convert a time into seconds. 7 minute marathon would be 420 seconds. that is 100% of Marathon pace. 5-10% slower would be 21 seconds to 42 seconds slower. Therefore training pace for these long runs would be 7:21-7:42?

Talking about doing a MP run up to 24 miles sounds absolutely insane to me, but 5-10% slower makes it completely sane. If you are looking to run a marathon at 7 minute pace, I would assume your easy long runs are probably coming in somewhere just under 8s and your harder long runs are coming in somewhere under 7:30, probably finishing somewhere very close to 7s. This would seem "normal" for most hobby jogging runners seriously going after that BQ or PR.

Agree/Disagree?

I agree with those above, If you want to even try to translate the workouts of elites to non-elites, convert distances to time, and then run the same time. Meaning if you read someone did 18 miles at race pace for a marathon, then figure out what that was in minutes. That might be 90 minutes or less for an elite. Then take your marathon pace and do a workout holding it for 90 minutes. Don't try for 18 miles.

Same for track repeats. If I want to duplicate Galen Rupp doing mile repeats at 5k pace? Well, he's doing his repeats at what, 4:15-4:20 pace? For me that might be 1000s or 1200s. Not miles. and then I would do them at my 5k pace. (And because I am older and not nearly as fit, I'd probably add some recovery time.)

But that only works if the workout is something that fits into your training and goals. Galen Rupp is getting ready to peak for world indoors. I'm just trying to get into shape and build a base, loose some weight. Running 1000 meter repeats doesn't fit into my training right now. Maybe they will in 3-6 months. Maybe later I'll be finishign preparations for a series championship 5k age group race. I hear about Galen's awesome hill workout at high altitude. Again probably not the right workout for that time in my training...

I definately encourage people to try to understand the principles behind the training plans and apply them. Canova obviously has had some great results. There are many good things to take from his ideas.

-Kelly

This is what Daniels says in his Running Formula. Adjust duration based on vdot.

The Pocatello Kid.

I think its easier to say oh those crazy elites. ignore them. do X instead. but its another thing to dig in and look at what they are doing and compare. So we are not talking about Marathon Paced runs. We are talking about 90-95% of Marathon pace. So if you are training for a sub 3 marathon (6:52) Pace overall. we are talking about doing your long run in the low 7s once in a while.  And to be honest before I broke three thats about what my long runs were coming in at. Not everytime, but a few leading up.  I guess my point is these are less impressive runs at the hobby jogger level then they sound.

In fact counter to what everyone is saying the slower you are, the more time you are probably spending at 95% of Marathon Pace. For instance most people I know who run 4-5 hour marathons, train around 4-5 hour marathon pace. But as you get faster, your racing pace gets a lot faster than your training pace. When I first BQ'd I would run BQ pace on a regular basis, and it wasn't taxing on the body. Now, I would never run my goal marathon pace just for fun. The faster you get the more unreasonable it is to get near that goal pace.

In fact counter to what everyone is saying the slower you are, the more time you are probably spending at 95% of Marathon Pace.

This is certainly true. The slower you are, the closer your easy run pace will be to your marathon race pace so it stands to reason.

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