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Introduction and Looking for Advice (Read 146 times)

    Hi. I just thought I’d do an introductory post and ask a couple of questions.  I’ll try to make it as brief as I can while still outlining my athletic background.

     

    I think I was born with a somewhat above average aerobic capacity.  I ran a sub 6:00 minute mile in high school for the physical fitness test with no training.  Shortly after graduating high school, I took up running more seriously at age 18 and ran my one and only race – a 10K with a time of 41:15 – after a couple months of training.  It wasn’t long after that race that I got injured though it was by lifting too much weight on a leg extension machine and hurt my right knee. I’m not sure why but I couldn’t seem to feel right for a long time afterwards.  I read a lot of the running books at the time but didn’t seem to be able to stay injury free and finally gave up the sport.

     

    At age 28 I got into road cycling and spent the next five years somewhat involved with it.  I suffered some injuries even with cycling despite its non-impact nature.

     

    Various life circumstances changed and I became less active.  This culminated with me topping out at just over 200 pounds at age 38 and not being able to keep up with my wife on a walk.  This caused me to have an epiphany of sorts and I determined to do something about it.  I changed my diet and started doing various exercises.  Over the next 18 months, I lost 50 pounds and ended up getting back into road cycling.  I took it far more seriously this time and approached it with greater research and body awareness.  Consequently, I very rarely got injured and vastly improved upon my earlier results from when I was much younger.  Last year saw my highest mileage total of around 6,800 miles.  I never raced mainly out of fear of injury to body and bike from a much higher risk of crashing.  I was competitive with myself, however, and always sought to improve on my personal times and distances.  At my peak I could average over 21 MPH on a moderately hilly 40 mile course riding solo.

     

    A change in my work schedule last winter took away my half-day Wednesdays where I used to do my long rides.  Having a family while working full-time makes it challenging to otherwise schedule huge doses of cycling.  I was riding three times per week with two rides being in the 40-45 mile range and then the one longer one per week.  In addition to the scheduling change, the shorter winter days and my refusal to do indoor cardio workouts and I found myself looking for another outlet to sate my endorphin addiction.  This caused me to cautiously think about running again.

     

    I started with maybe 15 minutes of gentle running a couple of times per week.  I seemed to do okay and began entertaining the idea of being more serious about it.  I’ve always loved running and motivation was never an issue but rather injuries being the limiting factor.   I knew I now needed to get proper running shoes and did some research and asked some friends who run for recommendations. I decided to try the Hoka Bondi model.  I had had some flare ups of the old running weak spots – bursitis on my right big toe joint and right knee pain – but the Hoka’s helped with both problems.  I also have been running on a dirt rail trail that is flat.

     

    So, over the last two to three months I have shifting from cycling three times per week to now running three times per week while cycling twice.  Those two rides are shorter, in the 30-40 mile range usually, but quite intense.  My three runs have been in the 5-5.5 mile range on that rail trail.  I think a combination of factors has led me to embrace running over cycling.  Cycling has become a bit stale with so many years of it.  I think now at age 47, I could be on the downward slide performance-wise.  I only managed two rides last year averaging over 20 MPH solo.  Although I ride on mainly quiet roads, I still must be constantly vigilant about cars.  I find I’m weary of that.  I plan to continue the two rides per week but I don’t look forward to them that much whereas I cherish my runs.  I also do strength training twice per week with particular focus on my core.

     

    Running has filled me with excitement again as I see still a vast potential for improvement.  So, my questions involve what I can reasonably expect given that I seem to be fairly injury-prone when it comes to running.  Even with the Hoka’s, I’ve had minor flare ups with my Achilles, left hamstring, and more recently my right hip.  I’ve read much conflicting information on stretching so I try to be very cautious with it.  I have taken up foam rolling and I think it’s helped significantly.  Up to this point my runs have been fairly uniform.  My fastest 5.5 mile was at a 7:31/mile pace.  This caused an Achilles issue so I backed off some.  Depending on how I feel on a particular day, my pace is generally between 7:45 – 8:15/mile.

     

    I’m hoping I don’t need to do easy runs since I only run three times per week.  Honestly, I don’t enjoy running at what feels like a very slow pace.  7:45/mile feels like it just touches on tempo territory.  I can still talk quite easily.  I feel like with my years of cardio base from cycling that I could run much, much faster but am afraid to for fear of injury.  I have forced myself to try running at 8:30/mile and I just don’t enjoy it.  I don’t get the same endorphin buzz afterwards and just don’t find it as engaging.

     

    My two current running goals are to run a 10K and beat that old time of 41:15 from so many years ago.  My longest run from that time was 10 miles.  I would like to beat that and run a half-marathon.  I haven’t decided on what pace to shoot for.

     

    Since I’ll only be running three times per week, I’ve been contemplating keeping two of them at the 5.5 mile distance with one at an increasing tempo pace and one at 8:00/mile.  For my third run, I’d gradually start adding distance while keeping the pace around maybe 8:15/mile.  I’ve been thinking that if I continue this schedule, I’d hopefully be ready to race next year.

     

    How does this sound?  I’ve tried to catch up on more recent running advice.  I like Galloway’s emphasis on three runs per week particularly because I’m still cycling twice per week.  What I don’t like about his philosophy is the run/walk method.  It very well may work but it would just ruin the run experience for me.

     

    Any advice/suggestions would be appreciated and thanks for reading!

     

    Jason

    Personal Records:

    5K - 20:07 ran in September 2021 (The second half split during the 10K run listed below.)

    10K - 41:10 ran in September 2021

    8 miles - 56:15 ran in November 2021

    Half Marathon - 1:39:06 ran in September 2020

    LedLincoln


    not bad for mile 25

      Hi Jason.  You may not like this answer, but if you spend just a little time on these forums, you'll run into the "official" training mantra of RunningAhead:  Run lots, mostly slow, sometimes fast.  Sounds like you're not a fan of the mostly slow part, but time and again we see people come here and run too fast on too few miles, injure themselves and quit.  If you really can run only three times per week, then I'd say two of the three should be quite easy runs, and in the early stages (first few months), maybe push it a little with some fartlek or moderate tempo work on the third.  Remember you're in it for the long haul. Good luck!

        Hi Jason.  You may not like this answer, but if you spend just a little time on these forums, you'll run into the "official" training mantra of RunningAhead:  Run lots, mostly slow, sometimes fast.  Sounds like you're not a fan of the mostly slow part, but time and again we see people come here and run too fast on too few miles, injure themselves and quit.  If you really can run only three times per week, then I'd say two of the three should be quite easy runs, and in the early stages (first few months), maybe push it a little with some fartlek or moderate tempo work on the third.  Remember you're in it for the long haul. Good luck!

         

         

        I have read much of that!  I guess what I’m getting at is that my easy days are complete off days from running.  When I was only cycling, I didn’t do any easy rides either because my easy days were off days.  If I was to try to run even four days per week, my calculus would be different.  I’m hoping that because of only doing the three runs per week, I’m allowing enough recovery time so that I don’t have to do very easy runs.

         

        I just don’t relate to the “fun run” terminology to describe a very easy paced run.  I don’t consider that type of run to be particularly fun.  I’ll do it if I have to but would rather take complete days off and do the three runs at barely tempo/close to tempo/long and somewhat easy pace as I described in the original post.

         

        Thanks for your input!

        Personal Records:

        5K - 20:07 ran in September 2021 (The second half split during the 10K run listed below.)

        10K - 41:10 ran in September 2021

        8 miles - 56:15 ran in November 2021

        Half Marathon - 1:39:06 ran in September 2020

        dhuffman63


        Trails

          Keep in mind that the cycling while helping with aerobic does not prepare you for the impact that running does.  Your heart and lungs improve much faster than bones, tendons and ligaments.  Many people get injured doing too much, too fast, too soon.  If you plan on being a runner long term get used to slow easy runs.

          Fredford66


          Waltons ThreadLord

            "Easy" runs are different from off days.  They aren't intended to give your body a rest, but rather to help you build endurance.  The physiology of your muscles' energy usage differs between running fast/hard and running slower/easy.  On easy runs your muscles can burn more fat than they can on hard runs, and the easy runs train your body to rely more on fat.  For a fast 10k, that may not be as important, but for a half it certainly is.

             

            I understand your feelings.  It took me close to a year to accept the gospel of running more slowly in order to get faster, but I'm a believer now and it has done me a lot of good.

            5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 
            10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)

            Upcoming races: RunAPalooza (Asbury Park) HM, 4/6; Clinton Country Run 15k, 4/27

             

            Half Crazy K 2.0


              Since you are keeping the cycling,  look up Run Less, Run Faster. It uses a speed day, temp day and long run day plus 2 no impact cardio days and strength training.  So almost what you are doing now.

                "Easy" runs are different from off days.  They aren't intended to give your body a rest, but rather to help you build endurance.  The physiology of your muscles' energy usage differs between running fast/hard and running slower/easy.  On easy runs your muscles can burn more fat than they can on hard runs, and the easy runs train your body to rely more on fat.  For a fast 10k, that may not be as important, but for a half it certainly is.

                 

                I understand your feelings.  It took me close to a year to accept the gospel of running more slowly in order to get faster, but I'm a believer now and it has done me a lot of good.

                 

                I would plan on going slower on the long run.  I guess I would need to determine just how much slower would qualify as "easy".  If 7:45/mile just touches on tempo, would 8:15 then be easy?  Would that pace be bringing more of the oxygen component into it?

                 

                Are you doing all your runs at a slower pace?

                 

                Thanks.

                Personal Records:

                5K - 20:07 ran in September 2021 (The second half split during the 10K run listed below.)

                10K - 41:10 ran in September 2021

                8 miles - 56:15 ran in November 2021

                Half Marathon - 1:39:06 ran in September 2020

                  Since you are keeping the cycling,  look up Run Less, Run Faster. It uses a speed day, temp day and long run day plus 2 no impact cardio days and strength training.  So almost what you are doing now.

                   

                  Wow, that is pretty much exactly what I'm doing now!  I hadn't heard of that book before but I just ordered it.  It may confirm that my initial plan would work though it might require a longer base pyramid before embarking on it  I just browsed through the table of contents and I don't see anything about run/walk so it could also be tailored to my interests in that regard.  Thanks for the pointer.

                  Personal Records:

                  5K - 20:07 ran in September 2021 (The second half split during the 10K run listed below.)

                  10K - 41:10 ran in September 2021

                  8 miles - 56:15 ran in November 2021

                  Half Marathon - 1:39:06 ran in September 2020

                  ilanarama


                  Pace Prophet

                    I seem to be fairly injury-prone when it comes to running

                     

                    I’m hoping I don’t need to do easy runs since I only run three times per week.  Honestly, I don’t enjoy running at what feels like a very slow pace.

                     

                    These statements are related.

                    paul2432


                      It sounds like you are running mostly for fun rather than to hit any particular time goal.  Therefore I think it makes sense to run in a way that is fun for you.  Not everyone needs to optimize their training for race results.  Of course you need to balance injury risk because being injured is not fun.

                       

                      For me, variety is one thing that makes running more fun.  Some runs are longer, some are shorter, some are faster, some are slower.  Research also shows that a varied training program reduces the risk of burnout and over-training.

                       

                      I also recommend finding a 5K race and running it.  Until you do that you won't really know what your training paces should be.

                        It sounds like you are running mostly for fun rather than to hit any particular time goal.  Therefore I think it makes sense to run in a way that is fun for you.  Not everyone needs to optimize their training for race results.  Of course you need to balance injury risk because being injured is not fun.

                         

                        For me, variety is one thing that makes running more fun.  Some runs are longer, some are shorter, some are faster, some are slower.  Research also shows that a varied training program reduces the risk of burnout and over-training.

                         

                        I also recommend finding a 5K race and running it.  Until you do that you won't really know what your training paces should be.

                         

                        Part of the allure of running as against cycling is to do races.  I very much enjoyed that one 10K I did many years ago.  As I mentioned in my original post, cycling races just carry too much risk for my liking particularly the road ones that I would be interested in.

                         

                        I know that racing needs to be approached carefully so that's why I was planning on waiting until next year to start.  I'm thinking that year of training would be sufficient to safely make a foray into it.  I'm not interested in attending a race without going all out in it.

                         

                        I agree that a solid 5K time would give me a great baseline.  I was reading an article that outlined how perceived exertion could be used to establish what is tempo pace.  Probably not as accurate as a 5K time but that's probably what I'll be using for now.

                        Personal Records:

                        5K - 20:07 ran in September 2021 (The second half split during the 10K run listed below.)

                        10K - 41:10 ran in September 2021

                        8 miles - 56:15 ran in November 2021

                        Half Marathon - 1:39:06 ran in September 2020

                        dcowboys31


                          Have a similar background to you between road cycling and recently getting back to running in my mid-forties. I also do just three day's of running per week and my goal is just to do the best I can with that amount of time (training just for 5K distances). As a reference my 5K racing pace is between 7:18 and 7:28 per mile so with that, have had pretty consistent results with the following plan (also I have read here an "easy pace" would be about 2 to 2:30 minutes over this 5K mi race pace). I have done a 4 mile tempo run straight from work on Wednesday nights and this is usually at about a 7:40 mi avg, a bit under racing pace. Then a long run on Saturday (between 6 to 10 miles) but for that I do a mid level pace around 8:45 to 9:15 mi avg. and then 4 to 6 mile easy run on Sundays which average about 10 minute miles. so between 14 to 20 miles a week but also do 4 days of weight training as well, not willing to give that up. My overall goal for whatever reason was to get a 5K race with sub 7 minute pace which would be 21:40 and still working on getting to that point.

                           

                          Good luck with everything.

                           

                          Jay

                            Have a similar background to you between road cycling and recently getting back to running in my mid-forties. I also do just three day's of running per week and my goal is just to do the best I can with that amount of time (training just for 5K distances). As a reference my 5K racing pace is between 7:18 and 7:28 per mile so with that, have had pretty consistent results with the following plan (also I have read here an "easy pace" would be about 2 to 2:30 minutes over this 5K mi race pace). I have done a 4 mile tempo run straight from work on Wednesday nights and this is usually at about a 7:40 mi avg, a bit under racing pace. Then a long run on Saturday (between 6 to 10 miles) but for that I do a mid level pace around 8:45 to 9:15 mi avg. and then 4 to 6 mile easy run on Sundays which average about 10 minute miles. so between 14 to 20 miles a week but also do 4 days of weight training as well, not willing to give that up. My overall goal for whatever reason was to get a 5K race with sub 7 minute pace which would be 21:40 and still working on getting to that point.

                             

                            Good luck with everything.

                             

                            Jay

                             

                             

                            Thanks for sharing your experience.  It seems like your routine is quite similar to what I hope to put in place.  Another poster suggested getting a 5K time as a baseline.  I don’t have that but my best 5.3 mile time was at a 7:31 pace but I wasn’t going all out.  It’s kind of hard to guess what my 5K race time would be at this point.  For now I’m basing my pacing on perceived exertion which I can know can be an inexact science.  I’m admittedly probably going on the hard side of easy for my “easy” runs.

                             

                            Are you maintaining any cycling at this point?

                            Personal Records:

                            5K - 20:07 ran in September 2021 (The second half split during the 10K run listed below.)

                            10K - 41:10 ran in September 2021

                            8 miles - 56:15 ran in November 2021

                            Half Marathon - 1:39:06 ran in September 2020

                            Fredford66


                            Waltons ThreadLord

                               

                              I would plan on going slower on the long run.  I guess I would need to determine just how much slower would qualify as "easy".  If 7:45/mile just touches on tempo, would 8:15 then be easy?  Would that pace be bringing more of the oxygen component into it?

                               

                              Are you doing all your runs at a slower pace?

                               

                              Thanks.

                               

                              No.  Generally, I have 3 days of easy pace, 1 day with a long run that's slightly faster, 1 day at race (i.e. HM) pace, and 1 day of speed work (and 1 rest day).

                               

                              Bottom line is to make sure you're still having fun.  I know running hard feels good, but the down side is if you do too much of it you could suffer injury and then can't run at all.

                               

                              In the end, soak in the advice, find what works for you, and enjoy your running.  Good luck to you.

                              5k 23:48.45 (3/22); 4M 31:26 (2/22); 5M 38:55 (11/23); 10k 49:24 (10/22); 
                              10M 1:29:33 (2/24); Half 1:48:32 (10/22); Marathon 4:29:58 (11/23)

                              Upcoming races: RunAPalooza (Asbury Park) HM, 4/6; Clinton Country Run 15k, 4/27

                               

                              Mikkey


                              Mmmm Bop

                                It sounds like you are running mostly for fun rather than to hit any particular time goal.  Therefore I think it makes sense to run in a way that is fun for you.  Not everyone needs to optimize their training for race results.  Of course you need to balance injury risk because being injured is not fun.

                                 

                                For me, variety is one thing that makes running more fun.  Some runs are longer, some are shorter, some are faster, some are slower.  Research also shows that a varied training program reduces the risk of burnout and over-training.

                                 

                                I also recommend finding a 5K race and running it.  Until you do that you won't really know what your training paces should be.

                                 

                                I like this post. You need to enjoy your training and if you’re focusing on the 10k then you don’t need to be running loads of easy miles to get a respectable time. Definitely run some 5ks and get familiar with that race feeling again and pacing. It would also help if you worked on some specific strength training for runners...even if it’s just 2x15min sessions per week at home.

                                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

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