Forums >Racing>2021 Sub 3:00 Marathon Thread
Ash
DPS - you are flying, got a good feeling about your half.
OMR - enjoy that feeling of relief.
JT – seems I’m in 3:15-3:20 shape, I’m going to say 3:15 but will be happy with anything in the vicinity. This build is a stepping stone toward October and already a success on that count.
MP workouts – different strokes/folks and even same folks depending on context. Why not both – split earlier in the cycle and progress toward a closer race simulation. If you are rinsed after a late cycle MP block maybe the cause is wrong pace/effort rather than age. The flip is splitting might allow you to get away with a pace/effort faster than purpose for the workout (and race).
Next: Ballarat, April 28, Pacing 3:50
Best: 5k 19:46 (Parkrun, 2016), 10k 40:37 (Track, 2022), Half 1:26:41 (2016), Full 3:00:23 (2021)
I'm not totally sure how this fits in to the MP 5+5 versus 12 or whatever, but I do believe it fits in there somewhere. I think your strength as a runner plays in to it. For those that have an easier time, comparatively, with the shorter stuff (like me), MP tends to be closer to the easy side of things. I'm not saying it's close to my easy pace, just that it's generally not overly taxing. So doing two 5 mile sections of MP really wouldn't feel like much at all. I need to work that up to 12 or 14 to start to feel like something. I tend to not worry so much at a very specific pace, but instead just aim to have two-thirds of my long runs in that general range (15s faster or slower than what I think is MP).
For me, I know that if I'm feeling like I'm working 10 miles into a marathon, it's going to be a slog at some point. It needs to feel super easy and relaxed 10 miles in at that pace. Running 20 milers with the majority around that pace gets me there.
For those that are naturally much better at the full compared to the half, or those that can run at a much higher percentage of their max for 2.5-3 hours, I can see how those 20 milers at that effort level would be just too much. Or even running too many 20 milers would be unnecessary. I also can see how two 5 mile sections would give you a lot of return.
Upcoming races: Boston
Intl. correspondent
JT - yeah that 10 thousand is going to be incredibleDamn these ticks look awful
Darkwave - that 2x5 miles looks great. It’s exactly that, don’t train harder than you have to.
Calbears - I see you logged a complaint about my metric weekly. I’ve checked my drawer of damns to give but it was empty Still, I’ve just ran my first workout prescribed by the new coach and he’s prescribing my workouts in freedom units, so I guess you win Also, aren’t you originally Russian? Are you now a triple agent?On the topic of marathon pace, I’m a HEAVY bloke. I’m lightest as ever at the moment and still 176lb. I’m so heavy that wind is a minor disturbance. Marathons are hard for me (Also why I love the 1500)
Jhuda - that’s a ton of swimming, kudos for the dedication!
Cinnamon - Hey there, the trick was to move before COVID That marathon is actually pretty much all flat going around a lake, It might be windy though.Was that Wednesday’s workout 5k, 3k and mile paces?
Jmac - It seems to me that you have a ton of muscular endurance, so certainly you can go for that mental boost if recovery is not an issue.
DPS - beastly as ever! Very nice week, very consistent pace on Sunday.
PRs: 1500 4:54.1 2019 - 5K 17:53 2023 - 10K 37:55 2023 - HM 1:21:59 2021
Up next: some 800m race (or time trials) / Also place in the top 20% in a trail race
Tool to generate Strava weekly
Mother of Cats
I'm not totally sure how this fits in to the MP 5+5 versus 12 or whatever, but I do believe it fits in there somewhere. I think your strength as a runner plays in to it. For those that have an easier time, comparatively, with the shorter stuff (like me), MP tends to be closer to the easy side of things. I'm not saying it's close to my easy pace, just that it's generally not overly taxing. So doing two 5 mile sections of MP really wouldn't feel like much at all. I need to work that up to 12 or 14 to start to feel like something. I tend to not worry so much at a very specific pace, but instead just aim to have two-thirds of my long runs in that general range (15s faster or slower than what I think is MP). For me, I know that if I'm feeling like I'm working 10 miles into a marathon, it's going to be a slog at some point. It needs to feel super easy and relaxed 10 miles in at that pace. Running 20 milers with the majority around that pace gets me there. For those that are naturally much better at the full compared to the half, or those that can run at a much higher percentage of their max for 2.5-3 hours, I can see how those 20 milers at that effort level would be just too much. Or even running too many 20 milers would be unnecessary. I also can see how two 5 mile sections would give you a lot of return.
This is all very interesting and makes a lot of sense to me, especially since I fall into the "better as the distance gets longer" category. Marathon effort never feels "closer to easy" - it's more like a version of a tempo. My marathon pace is much closer to my top speed than it might be for some others who have more speed.
Related - a friend and I were discussing long runs this morning - he's a big fan of doing at least one 23-24 mile long run to prepare oneself for the final miles of the marathon. I am definitely not a fan of that approach, and tend the other way - no more than two 20+ mile long runs in a cycle; but a lot of shorter long runs with marathon effort work. But again, he has a lot more leg speed than me, but finds the sheer distance of a marathon imposing; in contrast - I don't find running 26 miles that hard; it's sustaining a hard pace for that distance that is hard. Differing physiologies; differing training needs.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Mmmm Bop
Calbears - I see you logged a complaint about my metric weekly. I’ve checked my drawer of damns to give but it was empty
Are you a fan of Mark Manson by any chance? This little read always gives me a chuckle and I even have the book. https://markmanson.net/not-giving-a-fuck
Andres - Your point reminded me of a chapter in Brad Hudson’s Run Faster book as he recommends a different approach for speed Vs endurance runners regarding interval build up towards a goal race - speed runners should extend the distance of their goal race pace each week and “fatigue-resistant runners” should increase speed over distance each week.
Anyway I think it comes back to making training as easy as possible to get the desired result. Maybe I’m simplifying it, but if I want to get say 100min at 160bpm MP HR then I don’t see a problem splitting it into sections.
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Obviously, I am in (Boston). I suspect, RP is not Sorry man - you have to train harder, like us, old dudes .
Not sure I can add anything about MP discussion. Probably because I don't have much data to compare. Hansons 6 to 14 miles (I extended it from 10 max) worked fine for me. Pfitz's 14 miles @MP worked fine too, but it was long time ago and I would improve at that point doesn't matter what I would do. I remember trying Daniels's approach with MP miles inserted into the LR and failed miserably several time, but I think it kist was not good cycle for me. When I PR-ed at a marathon, I didn't run MP at all I think - there was bunch of LT work and a lot of long runs with hard effort (3-4 miles) at the end of the LR.
I honestly do not care if somebody gives a f*** or not (no offense) - because I don't give a f*** either
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
DPS: I added your half to the table; I remember my grandparents saying uff da (among other things Norwegian); they were from Norway. Are there a lot of Norwegians where you are?
OMR: Congratulations on finishing the academic year, that must be a relief.
Marby: 3:15 would be a great target en route to October's big event.
flavio: 176 lbs is maybe heavy if you are 5 feet tall, but I think you're a pretty tall guy right?
Cal: Congrats on Boston!
Some good discussion on MP training. One thing I had in mind which Cal touched on was doing an MP workout like 2-3 mi warm-up, then 10 miles at MP, versus a long run like 10 easy, 10 MP. I usually did the latter and it wiped me out. I may try the former this time, get the MP block without the extra LR exhaustion. I seem to remember JMac's 10-12 at M were like this, isolated workouts and not part of the long run. That would certainly help.
2:52:16 (2018)
Problem Child
You are correct. I missed it by one minute and fifty seven seconds or so. BQ- 7:47….
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
RIP Milkman
JT is exactly right. 10 easy + 10 MP would wipe me out. My MP runs at most would be 2 easy, 14 MP, 2 easy. Most were more like 2/10/2. Maybe that's a big difference here. I view MP as a very long tempo. It is NOT trying to replicate the idea of getting your legs tired first and then running MP.
If I'm doing a progressive long run to get that feeling, it's going to be Pfitz style, slowly speeding up to about MP + 10%.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
6 weeks out: 7 mi at 7:51 then 10 at 6:21, 1 mi easy. 4 weeks out: 5 mi at 7:47, then 12 at 6:27, 2.5 mi easy. The week in between the two long runs with quality I ran the 1st 24 mi of the LA course at 7:04. My coach alternated high aerobic long runs and long runs with quality. I did the 2 x 5 mi as well but at 6:15, not MP. I did this for the workout a couple days after the 24 mi and in the week of the 17 w/12. It wasn't in coach's plan but I took something from Hanson's on my own that day - coach wasn't happy.
I agree with JMac and I looked at the quality sections as long tempo runs - there's no way I could look at them as long runs with MP
Looks like I'm in for Boston. So now I actually have to think about doing some real running and structured weeks! At least I'll need to do that starting around late June or so. JT, can you put me down for a sub 3 goal?
Did you see this:
"The qualifying window for the 2022 Boston Marathon will begin on September 1, 2019 and will continue through the conclusion of the to-be-announced 2022 Boston Marathon registration period later this fall."
https://www.baa.org/125th-boston-marathon-qualifier-acceptances-announced
Wasn't your qualifier CIM 2019? If so, you should be good for 2022, assuming field size is back to normal. Also means I can use my 2020 Houston time to watch the Mikkey/Cal showdown if things go bad in Boston this year.
That's cool Andres! I guess we need to make a reservation for a dinner on Saturday (I think, because Sunday is usually a day to completely relax and concentrate - at the same time ). Usually it was IAmDisappoint who was making a reservation, but he is running Chicago on Sunday, so, looks like some of us should take an initiative. The same place like I last running Boston (2017 ). Who else for dinner on Saturday (or do you think Sunday would be better?)
JTR - please update my goals for CIM: A goal - sub 2:57:49; B goal - sub 2:58:26
Andres: Congrats on getting in!
Cal: Very specific goals.... what is the significance if you don't mind sharing?
Any chance you guys will be competitive and get some trash talking going? You both have the same goal time. Maybe Andres can be Mikkey's surrogate at this year's Boston with a mission to beat Cal on his behalf...
I'm good for dinner either night, if you want to make the reservation. I'll almost certainly be solo so could do wherever. I didn't realize Dan was doing Chicago too. So he's going to try and pull it off? Nice.
JT - Ha! Not sure about that. I know how quickly Cal gets in to shape. I don't see just a sub 3 remaining his goal. I fully expect him to be way ahead of me.