When to do the hardest workout of the week ? (Read 116 times)

I have a doubt about when to schedule the hardest training of the week  like speedwork or tempo/lactate runs.

I followed Jason Koop's philosophy for ultra training and he considers that the hardest training/s of the week should be done at the very beginning. The logic is that we should be rested after a Monday off.

However, my Garmin was giving me a recovery time for the last run of a few days and in Runalyze I get a value for TSB of -34% and the days for recovery = 2 (Days until TSB = 0).

I was wondering if it would make sense to actually wait until the  TSB is 0 and schedule a couple of recovery runs before the hard run, which this week is 5x1500m. Or may this be just what is necessary for an optimal training effect? 

. Or may this be just what is necessary for an optimal training effect? 

I wonder the same thing....  I'm not the athlete that ilana is. I need more than one or two recovery days between hard workouts. After a long run, a day off, and one EZ day, I'm barely ready for a faster workout on the third day. I'm currently trying to do that sequence for marathon training. The faster day is then impacting my weekend long run, but I'm managing so far and hoping I'll become a stronger runner.

Well, I found some interesting insights: 
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2015/12/managing-training-using-tsb.html

It may, of course, not be directly applicable to me, also because the subject in the example is a triathlete and I am merely a runner, but training stress is training stress.

It boils to to the following:  Keep TSB between -20 and -30 to keep training stress high enough for a possitive effect and avoid staying more than a few days below -30. 

My TSB yesterday was -36, today it is -16, thus even a bit high, This means that I am going to leave the planning as it was and do the interval today.

RECAP:

Enric,

I do my long runs on the weekend, whatever day is nicer or fits my schedule.  I take Mondays off, and my tempos are on Tuesday

I have been using runalyze.com for 6-8months.  I find it has very valuable information, it's just crazy.

I also have Garmin forecasting my recovery time.

However, the models and algorithms don't know each individual, and can miss some conditions of a previous workout (headwind for example).

Furthermore, sometimes my HR is off due to myself (sleep, stress, temperature, caffeine, food,...) or the sensor, but it doesn't mean the workout was that hard.  When it is very hard, I usually feel it in more than one way.

To make things worse, there are authors that prefer doing some quality workouts on tired legs, or put tempo/MP in the middle of a long run.

In summary, I use the technology as a reference not as a rule.

I haven't used TSB or other tools.  Here is what I do.  I run every day with a day off every 3-4 weeks.  Long run Saturday (tempo mixed in some weeks), medium long run Sunday (10-15 miles) (sometimes Sat/Sun switch), easy/recovery Monday, hard workout Tuesday, easy run Wednesday, medium long run Thursday, hard workout or easy on Friday.

 

If I'm running higher mileage I might do a second run on Monday and Thursday.

 

This schedule is partly dictated by my life outside of running.

Much like what I do. I do the long run on Sunday, "normal" runs during the week and if needed I squeeze in some mileage early in the morning. Hence my question. 

I'm going to read some more about the subject as it's interesting and I have no problem switching the shortish runs around at least in weeks where the mileage is not too high.

I wonder the same thing....  I'm not the athlete that ilana is. I need more than one or two recovery days between hard workouts. After a long run, a day off, and one EZ day, I'm barely ready for a faster workout on the third day. I'm currently trying to do that sequence for marathon training. The faster day is then impacting my weekend long run, but I'm managing so far and hoping I'll become a stronger runner.

You will!  Doing the long run on tired legs is great marathon training.  Until you get to the point where you want to add quality into it, which should come later in the cycle, you really can't go wrong with an easy LR, even if it's easy by necessity due to fatigue.  (In fact this is the approach used by both Higdon and Hanson, to do a MP run on Saturday followed by a LR on Sunday.)  It's more important to be rested for hard workouts (tempo or intervals) than for the LR.

I should also add that I am not the athlete I used to be either! :-)  Also, even while training hard for my PR races, I did only one truly hard workout weekly. But I also did hill sprints and strides and other small doses of hard work within easy runs, and most of my LRs during the late fundamental/sharpening and taper period included quality of some sort, either surges or HMP/MP segments.

And with only two quality workouts per week, it's fairly easy to be recovered adequately for each one.

I wish! Easy for you maybe.  Your training plan sounds like mine, but I'm finding it to be quite a challenge. I'm reluctant to say age might be a factor, but there is that.