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30/30's, 60/60's, 3-3's, 3's with short rest vs traditional intervals. (Read 1570 times)


HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

    ...

     

    Funny, to me, running is to get from Point A to Point B and see who gets there fastest.  ...

     

    This is where he seemed to part ways with everyone else. Minimizing energy is an interesting idea, and sounds promising for ultrarunning, but then he completed ignored time -- and it seems to me that most of us runners actually really care about the time measure in particular Smile

     

    If I thought waving my arms backward would get me to the finish line faster, I'd be interested; if it gets me to the finish line slower, it loses most of its appeal to me.

    It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


    Fat butt on couch

      3) 400m-3000m intervals with short recoveries

       

      Any particular distance you recommend for medium distance runners?

       

      and this is what I've already been doing with the 400's and 800's with 40 sec and 1:30 recoveries respectively.

       

      so 3000m is short recovery too?  if my vv02max 6 minute test I can do 1800 meters, I wouldn't think I should be doing intervals over that for aerobic development.  Is that right or no?  And if I do mile intervals what should the rest be.  jog half the run-time?  I'm happy with what I'm doing but thought about adding some mile repeats and was confused as I've seen some that say very very short recovery to get used to running at that pace and I've seen many that say 3 minutes etc?

       

      40sec is shorter than I've ever done for a 400m...60sec when running them in 1:05-1:15 is good, a little longer if you're a little slower.

       

      Recovery for 3000m, depending how fast you want to run them, would be 5-6min.  The test you mention has no relevance to how long of intervals you should be doing, only how fast you intend to run them.  3000m intervals are good for you, but you don't want to start there.  Save those for when you are already in pretty good shape.  You'll only be doing 2-3 of them in a workout.  For mile intervals, again depends on pace.  For 4:55-5:20 recovery would be 3min.  Increase recovery proportionally to how much slower than that you will run them.  So if you run them in 6:10, recovery would be about 3:30.

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

        I've been running our weekly 5K series as a workout for a few weeks now.  I started with 1min on/ 1min off and now am up to 1:30 on/ 1:00 off.  I'll probably shorten the recovery the next few weeks (my last "goal" 5k is 8/20) - maybe do 1:15/:45 then 30/30 the last 2 weeks.  I really don't worry do much about pace (liar) I concern myself more with feel.  And i've found that when you do these workouts in a race situation (or with others doing longer interval speedwork) the term "off" takes a whole new meaning - much harder than if you were running alone.

         

        I am with SRL in that you shouldn't try to overcomplicate matters.  This is not calculus.  Your body will tell you what you need to know if you can quiet down all that other superfluous junk...

        Goals for 2013: sub 18 5K; stay healthy


        Fat butt on couch

            And i've found that when you do these workouts in a race situation (or with others doing longer interval speedwork) the term "off" takes a whole new meaning - much harder than if you were running alone.

           

           

           

          Now you bring up an interesting point.  Actual, old-school intervals are one thing...recovery should be from a walk to a "sprinter's jog", ie keep the blood flowing and muscles loose but really let your body recover as much as possible in that short time.

           

          What you are describing now is totally different....but something I am a very big believer in.  I'm never really come up with a name for these but typically log them as ON/OFF fartleks, although as you describe "OFF" does NOT mean jogging recovery.

           

          As an example, when I was really doing this a lot (and a lot faster than my fat current self) I'd start at 10minON and then take half the time in OFF, then do 2min shorter ON the next interval...so 10minON/5OFF/8ON/4OFF/6ON/3OFF/4ON/2OFF/2ON.  As an example I think the fastest one I ever did the ON paces were all in the 5:00-5:10 range, and I tried to hold an even 6:00 for the OFF sections.  My threshhold (60min race pace) was likely around 5:20 at that time, so 6:00 was maybe 30sec slower than MP but still not a real "recovery".

           

          Now for regular intervals, the goal is to do a pace well above threshhold, usually 5Kpace-ish (maybe 10K for longer ones).  So you oscillate between quite high effort and quite low effort.  This serves its purpose.  But what these types of fartleks do is maintain you at a very high % of threshhold for a prolonged period and get you a large chunk of time well above threshhold; 30 minutes out of a 44min workout.

           

          Another variation on this that is even more painful is straights/curves, where you run the straights of the track very quickly then the curves around tempo pace.  Rather than straddle threshhold, this gets you used to handling fast running while OVER it; a very good peaking workout for 10K racing.

          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

           

            a Not to derail the subject of intervals, which I think is great and I continue to learn about…but, I am curious about these “mud” races. It seems like the point of them (and I’ve never run one, and don’t have any plans or desire to) is to sort of forget about pacing and time goals (can you really have time goals if you’re waiting in line to climb up a wall, covered in crap?) and to just be wild and endure/enjoy the challenge. I would think it would be difficult to train for that, other than to just be generally fit. Not sure that any speed-work or interval workouts would be all that helpful – but I could be very wrong. Then again, I guess the explicit point of any race is to win, or to finish as fast as you can. I’m sure some mud race champion has developed some mud race training schedule. Maybe.
            Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and rogues
            We're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes

              a

              For clarity, I bring up the mud races because that's what OP is training for.

              Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and rogues
              We're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes


              Fat butt on couch

                a

                For clarity, I bring up the mud races because that's what OP is training for.

                 

                 

                Good point...that said...I guarantee that, with the condition of having sufficient upper body strength for the obstacles, those with better aerobic conditioning will prevail.  Perhaps someone less conditioned with phenominal obstacle technique may prevail.

                 

                I have never done a "Tough Mudder", but I have done a very similar type of thing that was 5K in distance years back, with a college teammate of mine.  I can't say we were the fastest over the obstacles or even through the deep mud pits but we more than made up for it in between and finished near the top.

                "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                 

                Scout7


                CPT Curmudgeon

                  I have no idea what you said in the OP, or what your question is.  That fact alone says, to me at least, that you are way over-thinking things, and you'd be better served taking a step back.

                   

                  My advice is if you are specifically training to do one of those goofy obstacle races (goofy by my estimation, I don't know why anyone would want to pay to do that), your best bet is to find one of those fitness trail things that have stations spread out along some route, and you stop at each to do some sort of exercise.  That should be how you train for this, because it will get you used to switching from running to something else, develop the rest of your body to handle the obstacles, and give you a sense of what it's like.

                   

                  That's the closest thing I've found to an obstacle course.  Unless you have a playground nearby, then you could run a bit, jump on the money bars, run a bit, do something else, and so on and so forth.

                    Scout, I would have to disagree with your approach in training for an obstacle race.  Having done one about a month ago my belief is that having a better aerobic fitness level is much more beneficial.  That goes in line with what Spaniel was saying.  Our race was shorter than the OP's Tough Mudder but carries on many similarities.  The course we ran on was more of a traditional XC course that had several turns, hills and an occassional creek to cross or run down.  Sure there may be some skill and coordination involved to get up and over a wall or to handle a cargo net but it's the running fitness that will get you to the finish line faster and in better shape.  FWIW, I finished 5th out of 9000 in the first day.  For the two days combined, I was 6th out of about 18,000.  I did zero obstacle practice and no intervals.  Just focused on getting miles in and building that base.  That's were the OP will benefit more from.

                    xor


                      a Not to derail the subject of intervals, which I think is great and I continue to learn about…but, I am curious about these “mud” races. It seems like the point of them (and I’ve never run one, and don’t have any plans or desire to) is to sort of forget about pacing and time goals (can you really have time goals if you’re waiting in line to climb up a wall, covered in crap?) and to just be wild and endure/enjoy the challenge. I would think it would be difficult to train for that, other than to just be generally fit. Not sure that any speed-work or interval workouts would be all that helpful – but I could be very wrong. Then again, I guess the explicit point of any race is to win, or to finish as fast as you can. I’m sure some mud race champion has developed some mud race training schedule. Maybe.

                       

                      Yes.

                       

                      I think the idea buried in boycows brain might be "I will sprint between obstacles" which has led to the deep focus on intervals. 

                       

                      Except it may not be that way.  And if you sprint between the obstacles, you will be winded when you get there.

                       

                      Scout7


                      CPT Curmudgeon

                        Scout, I would have to disagree with your approach in training for an obstacle race.  Having done one about a month ago my belief is that having a better aerobic fitness level is much more beneficial.  That goes in line with what Spaniel was saying.  Our race was shorter than the OP's Tough Mudder but carries on many similarities.  The course we ran on was more of a traditional XC course that had several turns, hills and an occassional creek to cross or run down.  Sure there may be some skill and coordination involved to get up and over a wall or to handle a cargo net but it's the running fitness that will get you to the finish line faster and in better shape.  FWIW, I finished 5th out of 9000 in the first day.  For the two days combined, I was 6th out of about 18,000.  I did zero obstacle practice and no intervals.  Just focused on getting miles in and building that base.  That's were the OP will benefit more from.

                         

                        I didn't say not to do any running.  In fact, I stated that the running should be an integral part of the training.  I firmly believe the OP should focus more on just running and less on getting into fancy workouts that have long names.

                         

                        I suggested including the obstacles because I have done more obstacle courses than I care to think about.  And yes, having a basic level of running fitness is absolutely crucial, but you also need to have the overall stamina and strength to be able to haul your tired ass up and over a cargo net while covered in mud.  If you come to an obstacle and have to stop and wait, that's a physical transition that just running isn't going to prepare you for completely.  Running a lot is an absolute necessity, but I believe in specificity as well.


                        Fat butt on couch

                          It's easy and a natural tendency for a lot of people to over-think this sport; if you look at the resources out their they virtually force people in that direction.  DCB may have had a rough start here but I give him credit for continuing to ask questions in a desire to improve and chase his goals.

                          "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                           


                          Fat butt on couch

                            one of those goofy obstacle races (goofy by my estimation, I don't know why anyone would want to pay to do that),

                             

                            Because not all of us have the luxury of being paid to do it.  Wink

                            "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                             

                            Scout7


                            CPT Curmudgeon

                              Because not all of us have the luxury of being paid to do it.  Wink

                               

                               

                              Hey, anyone young enough, dumb enough, and without severe mental or physical defects can get paid to run obstacle courses.

                               

                              Of course, evaluating that sentence makes me realize that the lot on this site are obviously exclude from such opportunities.

                              MrH


                                Minimizing energy is an interesting idea

                                 

                                The new Garmin 905E measures entropy during your run so you can focus on minimizing it, thereby postponing the eventual heat death of the universe.

                                The process is the goal.

                                Men heap together the mistakes of their lives, and create a monster they call Destiny.

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