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Goal Marathon Pace in Training Plans? (Read 79 times)

Julia1971


     

    Here is a helpful chart I've used and shared in the past regarding adjusting for conditions. This is temperature + dew point, or TDP:

     

    100 or less:   no pace adjustment

    101 to 110:   0% to 0.5% pace adjustment

    111 to 120:   0.5% to 1.0% pace adjustment

    121 to 130:   1.0% to 2.0% pace adjustment

    131 to 140:   2.0% to 3.0% pace adjustment

    141 to 150:   3.0% to 4.5% pace adjustment

    151 to 160:   4.5% to 6.0% pace adjustment

    161 to 170:   6.0% to 8.0% pace adjustment

    171 to 180:   8.0% to 10.0% pace adjustment

    Above 180:   hard running not recommended

     

    Note:  a range is given as there are numerous individual factors, such as the size, fitness and physical make-up of the runner, and their level of acclimatization to the heat and air saturation levels, that will play into how much of a pace adjustment is needed.

     

    The above are the pace adjustment percentages to use for continuous runs.  For repeat workouts such as 400’s 800’s, or mile repeats, I recommend using half of the continuous run adjustment as the body has a chance to cool somewhat during the recovery between repeats.

     

    Thanks.  I've seen guides like this out there and they're super helpful.  I think I would add something like, "Increase by x% for every 15 30 (edited) minutes you're out in those conditions" because I feel like heat stress accumulates over time.

     

    Also, I know it's been said that running in heat/humidity is like training in altitude but I've usually noticed that it takes a few weeks for my body to adjust.  So, I'm actually a bit concerned about training all summer at adjusted paces/efforts, flying somewhere cooler 20 degrees cooler a few days before the race, and then expecting my body to respond to 50-degree fall temperatures.  The earliest fall marathon I've done was early October (last year's Boston).  Fingers crossed that it works out that way, though.

    JMac11


    RIP Milkman

      This is meant more for workouts in my opinion, because in general, you're right about time otherwise: a 30 minute recovery run can be done in any conditions, where a 2.5 hour long run cannot be done (at least in my experience) once TDP hits 160, regardless of how slowly you run it or how much water you drink.

       

      Regarding your point on fall races, I used to be worried abut that too: how can your body run MP when all of your MP workouts were done +20 seconds slower due to heat? Won't your legs not be ready for that pounding? I think the elites who run at altitude prove otherwise: they never approach their true sea-level speeds because of where they train, yet it clearly is a major benefit.

      5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

       

       

      Running Problem


      Problem Child

        I AM A SELF PROCLAIMED HANSONS FAN BOY. 

         

        Okay, with the above statement said....Hanson marathon training doesn't account for temperature, elevation, hills, or attitude. It says "run 1-3 mile warm up, 6@ GMP, 1-3 mile cool down." They tell you at the beginning of the book to pick a goal pace based off a recent race. Don't work backwards from the goal you want.

         

        SHOULD you run it regardless of fitness/weather/attitude? No. 95F with a 10-15 mph headwind isn't when you want to go for goal pace.

        Should you do the 6 at Goal Marathon Pace based on current fitness? yes. This could include perceived effort.

         

        If you're going to use heat and humidity

         

        I've done well using the Hanson's Advanced Marathon training plan. I very much enjoy the confidence from doing the last three 10 @ GMP workouts leading up to a race. I've had 9 mile GMP runs cut to 8 miles because heat, lack of fitness and not knowing the workout was actually 8 instead 7. If your goal is to run by perceived effort then go for it, and be cognizant on race day a 4:15 could feel like a 4:09.

         

        Using the chart posted in this thread has served me well. Pretty much, when the  weather sucks I don't have much reason to slow down because my TDP doesn't give me much reason to slow down.

        Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

        VDOT 52.45

        5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

        Julia1971


          This is meant more for workouts in my opinion, because in general, you're right about time otherwise: a 30 minute recovery run can be done in any conditions, where a 2.5 hour long run cannot be done (at least in my experience) once TDP hits 160, regardless of how slowly you run it or how much water you drink.

           

          Regarding your point on fall races, I used to be worried abut that too: how can your body run MP when all of your MP workouts were done +20 seconds slower due to heat? Won't your legs not be ready for that pounding? I think the elites who run at altitude prove otherwise: they never approach their true sea-level speeds because of where they train, yet it clearly is a major benefit.

           

          I have run a marathon with a starting temperature of 75+ degrees (2012 Boston) and 70+ degrees (2019 Cleveland) and can attest that it can be done.  But, I certainly wouldn't recommend it.  Smile  As an aside, that last one made me curious to look more into the story about Salazar having to retire after finishing a particularly hot marathon.  I feel like I'm much less heat tolerant since Cleveland.

          Julia1971


            I AM A SELF PROCLAIMED HANSONS FAN BOY. 

             

            Okay, with the above statement said....Hanson marathon training doesn't account for temperature, elevation, hills, or attitude. It says "run 1-3 mile warm up, 6@ GMP, 1-3 mile cool down." They tell you at the beginning of the book to pick a goal pace based off a recent race. Don't work backwards from the goal you want.

             

            SHOULD you run it regardless of fitness/weather/attitude? No. 95F with a 10-15 mph headwind isn't when you want to go for goal pace.

            Should you do the 6 at Goal Marathon Pace based on current fitness? yes. This could include perceived effort.

             

            If you're going to use heat and humidity

             

            I've done well using the Hanson's Advanced Marathon training plan. I very much enjoy the confidence from doing the last three 10 @ GMP workouts leading up to a race. I've had 9 mile GMP runs cut to 8 miles because heat, lack of fitness and not knowing the workout was actually 8 instead 7. If your goal is to run by perceived effort then go for it, and be cognizant on race day a 4:15 could feel like a 4:09.

             

            Using the chart posted in this thread has served me well. Pretty much, when the  weather sucks I don't have much reason to slow down because my TDP doesn't give me much reason to slow down.

             

            I think the issue is that - for some people - it will be 70-90 degrees every day of their training cycle.  So, IMHO, a plan like Hansons can be hard for a novice to figure out how to make adjustments for.  Like the OP, I considered Hansons for this training cycle but nixed it because I didn't want to deal with potentially adjusting my workout pace or time every week.

            wcrunner2


            Are we there, yet?

              This is meant more for workouts in my opinion, because in general, you're right about time otherwise: a 30 minute recovery run can be done in any conditions, where a 2.5 hour long run cannot be done (at least in my experience) once TDP hits 160, regardless of how slowly you run it or how much water you drink.

               

               

              I've run marathons where the temperature reached into the mid-80s, and once into the 90s.  That was back in the day when water stops were often non-existent.  It can be done, but it's not pretty. When you see steam rising from the road at the start after an overnight rain, you know it's going to be miserable.

               2023 Races:

                    On IR for now

                   

              Running Problem


              Problem Child

                 

                I think the issue is that - for some people - it will be 70-90 degrees every day of their training cycle.  So, IMHO, a plan like Hansons can be hard for a novice to figure out how to make adjustments for.  Like the OP, I considered Hansons for this training cycle but nixed it because I didn't want to deal with potentially adjusting my workout pace or time every week.

                 

                You mean like the summer I trained for the Chicago Marathon (I'm regularly in the 100-155 TDP range for summer training)?

                 

                I said to do the run on fitness, and pick a goal based on current fitness not try to make current fitness fit the goal. I'd literally not be able to train for 5 months a year if adjusting pace was a deal breaker.

                 

                Actual adjusting

                7:00/mi pace. 420 seconds. TDP 180 462 seconds. Run at 8:00/mi pace. FUCK running in TDP 180. I'd rather run in AQI 180-200.

                7:00/mi pace. 420 seconds. TDP 150 439 seconds. 7:19/mi pace. For an 800m run this is 10 seconds slower. For a 200m sprint it's about 3 seconds

                7:00/mi pace. 420 seconds. TDP 130 437 seconds. 7:17/mi pace. About 9 seconds slower for an 800m run, and 2-3 seconds for a 200m.

                 

                Sometimes running isn't as hard as people make it.

                Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.

                VDOT 52.45

                5k19:35 | Marathon 2:56:07

                JMac11


                RIP Milkman

                   

                  I have run a marathon with a starting temperature of 75+ degrees (2012 Boston) and 70+ degrees (2019 Cleveland) and can attest that it can be done.  But, I certainly wouldn't recommend it.  Smile  As an aside, that last one made me curious to look more into the story about Salazar having to retire after finishing a particularly hot marathon.  I feel like I'm much less heat tolerant since Cleveland.

                   

                  I hear what you're saying, but neither of those can reach TDP of 160 by definition, since the dew point cannot except the temperature. The worst conditions most people do their long runs in is probably in the 150-155 range unless you're an idiot like me and tried to do one at 4 PM on a hot July day. My guess is that Boston run, as horrible as it was, was probably around 150 as well. However, as you alluded to earlier, 150 in April is MUCH worse than 150 in July as you have zero acclimation. I melted at Boston 2019 at the end and that was only around 130 TDP.

                   

                  And regarding your point on retiring - I have heard from many people about the heat exhaustion point. I have had some awful long runs in the heat and I find it takes me very long to recover from them. I cannot imagine racing a marathon in any of those horrible conditions. There's something about a true heat stroke that permanently damages your body and forces you to shut down any time you get hot.

                   

                  I also have noticed that in general I am less tolerant of heat as I get older. I think almost everyone is based on what I've heard on these boards.

                  5K: 16:37 (11/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:14:57 (5/22)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

                   

                   

                  Julia1971


                     

                    I hear what you're saying, but neither of those can reach TDP of 160 by definition, since the dew point cannot except the temperature. The worst conditions most people do their long runs in is probably in the 150-155 range unless you're an idiot like me and tried to do one at 4 PM on a hot July day. My guess is that Boston run, as horrible as it was, was probably around 150 as well. However, as you alluded to earlier, 150 in April is MUCH worse than 150 in July as you have zero acclimation. I melted at Boston 2019 at the end and that was only around 130 TDP.

                     

                    And regarding your point on retiring - I have heard from many people about the heat exhaustion point. I have had some awful long runs in the heat and I find it takes me very long to recover from them. I cannot imagine racing a marathon in any of those horrible conditions. There's something about a true heat stroke that permanently damages your body and forces you to shut down any time you get hot.

                     

                    I also have noticed that in general I am less tolerant of heat as I get older. I think almost everyone is based on what I've heard on these boards.

                     

                    Yes, you're right.  The highs on both of those days were in the 80s but the dewpoint wasn't high enough to reach those numbers.  (Looking at my race report for Cleveland, the TDP was around 144.)

                     

                    And, yes, I've also wondered if my growing heat intolerance is just due to age.  I think I've also read that that's not uncommon..

                    wcrunner2


                    Are we there, yet?

                       

                       

                      And, yes, I've also wondered if my growing heat intolerance is just due to age.  I think I've also read that that's not uncommon..

                       

                      That's one of the things my doctor cautioned me about several years ago after I had some heat related issues after a race.

                       2023 Races:

                            On IR for now

                           

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