2018 3:20 (and beyond) (Read 568 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    Interesting discussion.  I do want to note that:

     

    1) a course can be easier/faster one way, and harder/slower the other, from an elevation perspective, without that course being easier/faster than a flat course.  Boston is a nice example - I think it's clear that it's run the faster/easier direction, but still notably slower than Chicago or Berlin.

     

    2) courses can have a faster/slower direction for reasons completely independent of elevation.  It's better to have turns or hills earlier; crowd support is most important in the late miles.

     

    3) not all elevation changes are the same.  You can run really fast on a gradual downhill, while a really steep downhill might force you to break and slow down (if Richmond's final descent was any steeper, I think it would fall in that category). Conversely, a short steep uphill can be easier to handle than a very gradual soul-sucking climb that lasts forever.  I can easily envision a loop course that would have a faster and slower direction if one direction had short/steep uphills and long gradual downhills, while the other direction featured the reverse.

     

    4) Big Sur Marathon has a net drop close to that of CIM (2.2 m/km as compared to 2.45 m/kmfor CIM; Boston is 3.23 m/km and Steamtown is 6.89 m/km).  Net drop is not a perfectly reliable measure of speed/ease of the course - I've never heard anyone describe Big Sur as a fast course.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    mattw4jc


       

      No, that is not the way you climbed - in your scenario you could just tie a rope to the top before going up and use that rope to get to the top (in like leaving a car at the finish, running from the start and then driving car back to the start). No, climb the wall and then do it backwards and see what is easier...

      Climbing the wall with a rope would still be more difficult than lowering yourself with said rope because of gravity, right? But actual climbing up and down? I'd guess about the same. Maybe more difficult going down simply because it is more difficult to see the foot and hand holds going down.

       

       

      This whole debate about rock climbing is silly.

      Agreed - maybe we should move it to LetsClimb.com or something.

       

      An easier example is this: Run a course with one 200 foot climb in it to start off the race, followed by a 200 foot decline. Something like a bridge would work perfectly. The rest of the course is dead flat. So the net elevation change is exactly 0 feet.

       

      Now reverse that course.

       

      Everybody would agree that the reversed course is much harder because you need to run that bridge in mile 26. Times would probably be slower. Does this mean the first course is "unfair" because when I reverse it, it becomes much more difficult? Obviously not.

      I hadn't thought about that scenario. Placement of a hill is definitely a factor.

       

      Sorry for hi-jacking the thread. I think the original sentiment is more like, "Did I run faster because of an easier course?" Probably easier than running it in reverse. But easier than another course? That comparison is not easily done because of too many other factors such as weather and course specific training.

      mattw4jc


        Interesting discussion.  I do want to note that:

         

        1) a course can be easier/faster one way, and harder/slower the other, from an elevation perspective, without that course being easier/faster than a flat course.  Boston is a nice example - I think it's clear that it's run the faster/easier direction, but still notably slower than Chicago or Berlin.

         

        2) courses can have a faster/slower direction for reasons completely independent of elevation.  It's better to have turns or hills earlier; crowd support is most important in the late miles.

         

        3) not all elevation changes are the same.  You can run really fast on a gradual downhill, while a really steep downhill might force you to break and slow down (if Richmond's final descent was any steeper, I think it would fall in that category). Conversely, a short steep uphill can be easier to handle than a very gradual soul-sucking climb that lasts forever.  I can easily envision a loop course that would have a faster and slower direction if one direction had short/steep uphills and long gradual downhills, while the other direction featured the reverse.

         

        4) Big Sur Marathon has a net drop close to that of CIM (2.2 m/km as compared to 2.45 m/kmfor CIM; Boston is 3.23 m/km and Steamtown is 6.89 m/km).  Net drop is not a perfectly reliable measure of speed/ease of the course - I've never heard anyone describe Big Sur as a fast course.

         

        Good points. Even net zero doesn't mean it would be the same difficulty in both directions.

        JMac11


           

           

          Agreed - maybe we should move it to LetsClimb.com or something.

           

           

           

          Woah, you're thinking of another site! On here, you need to move the thread to ClimbingAhead.com 

          5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 36:21 (9/18)  |  HM: 1:20:39 (5/17)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

           

          Next Race: Joe Kleinerman 10K (1/5/19)

          Goal Race: Boston (4/15/19)

          AceHarris


            I registered for the Cherry Blossom 10 miler lottery today. We'll see if I get in.  The wife and I have wanted to get up to DC for a few days, so I figure this will add to the trip.

             

            In my debate about speed cycle or Spring marathon, I've reached out to some marathons to see if they need any pacers. I figure a free marathon would help me make the decision.

             

            I'm confused by the climbing references. I like running hills, just not too many, too long, too steep, or fake hills on a treadmill. In our area, unless you're running by the river and avoiding hills, you probably average anywhere between 50-100 feet gain per mile over the rolling terrain.

             

            Anybody have a favorite pair of winter running pants/tights? I'm due for a new pair.

            Road Mile: 5:19 (2017), 5k: 18:10 (2017), 10k: 38:25 (2017, course was 6.1), HM: 1:25:16 (2018), M: 2:57:18 (2018)

            Katia77


              Just wanted to stop by and congratulate DWAVE and RLK!!!  Really awesome running, and I'll echo that I really don't think CIM is a ski-slope course (I've run those).  I don't remember much about it because I wasn't racing it, but the hills never ended from what I recall.  I think the favorable weather helps more than anything.

               

              After running almost a whole 3 miles (you can laugh, it's ok) on Saturday, I haven't run yet this week, and it's not looking good.  Monday I did spinning and then yesterday I was planning on heading out and waiting for it to get to 30 degrees, which it did around 1, but I got a report in and my day never stopped. DH is out of town so not getting it done at work meant it wasn't happening. And today the AQ has sucked since I got to work. It's hard to find motivation to jog along in the cold with awkwardly fitting clothes.   I currently don't have the motivation to run on a TM, so we'll see how the AQ goes. I kept running until I was basically due with my son, but with a due date in late March it may be different, and I don't think the whole 2-5 miles a week makes any real difference.

              PRs: HM: 1:32:59 (2015); FM: 3:18:36 (2017)

              darkwave


              Mother of Cats

                I registered for the Cherry Blossom 10 miler lottery today. We'll see if I get in.  The wife and I have wanted to get up to DC for a few days, so I figure this will add to the trip.

                Excellent choice.   I would consider targeting that as your spring goal race if you get in.  If you get the right weather (and often you do) Cherry Blossom is a lightning fast course.  And good 10 mile fitness will help your marathon performance down the road.

                 

                That is the best race in DC, and worth traveling for.  It is a fantastic 10 miler that has the feel of a major marathon, in terms of expo, start and finish line management, elite athlete presence, etc.

                 

                (I'm planning on running it as a goal race, though I suspect you'll kick my ass if you target it as your goal race).

                 

                CK - you asked earlier why I thought I was so sore?  I suspect that it was a combo of a) that course being hard on everyone; b) the lingering ache in my right hip throwing my gait off just slightly; and c) my pushing the downhills just a bit too much early on.

                 

                RLK - for water I run with a small handheld water bottle (I think it holds 12 ounces).   I use that, and then when empty I unscrew the cap and tuck it in my sportsbra.  Then...at the next water station, I slow to a jog (but don't walk) and refill it with 1-2 cups of water.  Rescrew cap and I'm on my way.  Costs about 2 seconds at the water stop, and I can then drink the water easily over the next few miles instead of choking it down quickly.

                 

                Picture of me with water bottle - as you can see, it's not big - I train with it all the time, and I don't think it slows me at all.

                 

                ***

                 

                Yoga in the morning; massage in the afternoon.  First activity since the marathon (took Monday-Tuesday completely off).

                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                 

                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                pepperjack


                pie man

                  Just to add, I suspect the CB lottery is something on the order of 20,000 people for 18,000 spots.  But I have actually met someone who once didn’t get in.  I’m close to an exemption for 10 nonconsecutive finishes, but that’s going to have to wait,I guess.

                   

                  speaking of lotteries, decided against miwok, sadly. Just can’t afford it.  Back to looking for fat asses.

                   

                  nice work CIM folks.  The course and its advantages is LR fodder, so I will leave that to them.  Usually a couple threads on it each year.

                   

                  Used my federally mandated day off to do a track workout in the daylight.  Woo.  Seems appropriate, since Bush was known as a jogger, enough so it made his Simpsons episode...

                   

                  2018 - 10m - 1:06:59

                  CommanderKeen


                  Aspiring Hobby Jogger

                    Ace - If you like compression, I'd recommend 2XU MCS tights- the thermal ones are really nice this time of year. No complaints at all about these (make sure you get the sizing right), but they're best bought on sale.

                    I have a windproof pair from Gore and a from Pearl Izumi that are also in the rotation, but neither model is made any longer and PI doesn't make running clothes at all now, though I'm sure a pair of PI cycling tights without a chamois would work just as well.


                    DWave - Have you looked at the data enough to see if Stryd comes up with a difference between the VF4% and any of your other shoes?


                    Motivation and sleep are lacking since Monday. I'm likely going to pay for that by having to do a tempo run on the TM tomorrow. Bleh.

                    5k: 18:54 9/18 │ 10k: 38:56 4/18 │ HM: 1:28:01 4/18 │ M: 3:04:13 11/18

                    Upcoming Race(s):

                    Chisholm Trail Marathon 3/24

                    OKC Memorial Marathon? 4/29


                    Cat Disliker

                      ace I have some Under Armour and some Brooks tights. Both work for me even if I'm not running currently. I've used them in the past and they're warm. I also have a pair of nike pants with a nice fleece liner. These are nice for lounging too as they have a normal wallet pocket and hand pockets. Tights don't seem to be too conducive to holding stuff but I guess it's expected to have a jacket. It's annoying to not be able to wear a long sleeve and hold an ID and credit card along with car keys with tights sometimes.

                       

                      EDIT: CIM National Anthem in the background. Yeah...that's slow. Oh and as dwave said about the start. It was half the size. Previously the whole road was open to start running. If you listen to the announcer he says the sub 4 hour runners will start (2 lanes on the left) then the other runners will start. That's a cramped CIM start. I think I recognize a certain super hero around the 6:30 mark.  Another (rlk?) around the 7:03 mark on the right edge possibly.

                       

                      rlk I have this so maybe it would work? You'd have to practice refilling etc.

                      1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                      5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                      10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                      Half: 1:34:26 (2016)

                      Marathon 3:13:20 (2016)

                       

                      2018 Goal: Get into the 4/20/20 marathon

                      rlk_117


                      Resident Millennial

                        brew yeah i have a handheld sort of like that too, but i like the option to ditch it (sometimes when i get crabby at the end of a marathon, everything in my hands feels heavy so i slam a half-eaten gu on the ground ...... yes, all very rational!). I think next time I might start with the disposable one like dwave and practice refills, which would just need to do a couple times during race, and like she said it'd definitely be worth the few-second slowdown in the long run

                         

                        max- i forget if i said this, but the past 2 years in a row at CIM I have laughed to myself at mile ~24.5 thinking about a) "I think I'm not going to talk anymore" and b) your observation that it's a good time to run right past a hospital, just in case.

                        _________________________________________________
                        mile, 5:38 /5k, 19:40 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
                        2019: idk.

                        Pesto


                          DkW - loved the RR. You may be annoyed with your mini positive split, but I’m impressed with it. After reading the way you were feeling during the second half, I was expecting at least a 1-2 min positive split. It’s impressive that you can lock into a pa e and keep it under those conditions. Very well deserved PR Wink Also I kept wondering about the time in he mirror during the whole report, great ending.

                           

                          CK - the kiddo is doing well, thanks for asking! She’s lovely but doesn’t like to sleep much at night. It’s been a rough 11 months. How is yours?!

                           

                          max - congrats on getting in!

                           

                          me - I ran a 5k with the club today. I tried pacing some RBs for sub 20 but after 4 kms I was by myself so I decided to pick it up in the last km. Finished in about 19:30-35. Given how I felt I think I’m still in sub 19 form, so that was a pleasant surprise. I thought I was in much worse shape than that.

                          5K - 18:03 (5.18) | 10K - 37:58 (2.18) | HM - 1:20:45 (9.18) | FM: 2:57:59 (10.18)

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                             

                            DWave - Have you looked at the data enough to see if Stryd comes up with a difference between the VF4% and any of your other shoes?

                             

                            Yup - I can actually see differences between all of my shoes, using Stryd.  Basically in looking at pace associated with power (with the idea that the faster the pace for a given power, the better).

                             

                            The Adios 2 and the Vaporfly look very similar when using Stryd.  Vaporfly maybe slightly better.  Both are far superior to the Adios 2, which has a slower pace for the same power generated.

                             

                            Brewing - that's not me (If you were referring to me) - I started on the left side (deliberately - I knew everyone was going to crowd to the right to run the tangent on the first turn).  I can just barely see myself coming past around 6:57.  Fun video to see - thanks for sharing!

                             

                            Pesto - I think 5K fitness should come quickly to you.

                             

                            RLK - I didn't realize there was a hospital there.  Perhaps better I didn't know.

                             

                            CIM photos are out - my finish line photos all feature the awkward pain face.  Boyfriend noted that it looked like I was trying not to pass gas.  I get no respect 'round here.

                             

                            ***

                             

                            7 "miles" pool-running and some very light injury prevention/rehab work.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.


                            Cat Disliker

                              Defiantly thought that was you. The glasses seemed to be the wrong color but everything else seemed correct.

                              1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                              5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                              10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                              Half: 1:34:26 (2016)

                              Marathon 3:13:20 (2016)

                               

                              2018 Goal: Get into the 4/20/20 marathon

                              rlk_117


                              Resident Millennial

                                brew defiantly thought it was definitely darkwave!

                                _________________________________________________
                                mile, 5:38 /5k, 19:40 /10k, 41:00 /13.1, 1:31:49 /26.2, 3:12:58
                                2019: idk.