1

24+ Mile Long Runs? (Read 265 times)

astrodanzz


    Hi All, I ran the Philadelphia Marathon last Fall and had and ran at my goal pace (7:55/mi) up until the 25-mile marker, where my calves locked up so tightly with cramps that I hit the floor twice.  I finished the last mile in about 10 minutes, hobbling to keep the cramps at bay when I felt them forming.  It was just a demoralizing way to finish a race that I was otherwise happy with.  I took Gatorade at every hydration station and had three gels during the race, so I really think it was more muscle fatigue than dehydration.

     

    I've thought about increasing the length of my long runs (last year I did 4 runs in the 20-22 mile range, one of which was the morning after a strenuous workout) to help avoid this problem, but every single training plan seems to warn against that.  I want to make absolutely certain that something like what happened doesn't happen again, especially now that I am going for a 7:40 pace.  I feel that the reason my body broke down last year was precisely because I had stumbled into "uncharted territory" and my body wasn't prepared.  But still, it's daunting when virtually every training plan tops off at 20 or so miles.

     

    Any advice?

      Long runs are only one piece of the puzzle. I would take a closer at the rest of your training before doing longer long runs.

      Runners run

      HermosaBoy


        Long runs are only one piece of the puzzle. I would take a closer at the rest of your training before doing longer long runs.

         

        +1

         

        I would wonder about nutrition too?

        And you can quote me as saying I was mis-quoted. Groucho Marx

         

        Rob

        joescott


          I would look first at increasing your overall training volume maybe.  A lot can be achieved, at lower risk, by just getting your volume up.  If you are like so many other people who train for marathons on 40-50 mpw, there is a HUGE benefit to be gained by moving up to 60-70 mpw.

           

          I have one "data point" where I went beyond 24 miles for a training run.  A friend of mine (2:24 guy, no less) said to consider going up to 26, 28 or even 30, so against my better judgment and that of my coach at the time (Jeff) I threw down a 27-miler one Sunday morning, and I am convinced to this day that one run ruined my otherwise nearly perfect training cycle.  Coincidentally or not, I spiraled down into an overtraining situation and had a disastrous race.... a race that should have been a PR by a LOT based on the workouts and miles I had been running leading up to that point.

          - Joe

          We are fragile creatures on collision with our judgment day.

            It's hard for us to say whether that makes any sense (though I'm guessing it's unlikely that longer long runs are the answer) because there's not a lot of info to go on.  As Mikey said, long runs are only one piece and we don't know much about your training.  You can simulate those feelings of fatigue on a run of 20-22 miles based on how you do your training and long runs.

             

            Racing should be uncharted territory.  The point is that you push yourself to a farther distance or faster time than you have done before.

            There was a point in my life when I ran. Now, I just run.

             

            We are always running for the thrill of it

            Always pushing up the hill, searching for the thrill of it

            LedLincoln


            not bad for mile 25

              The thing about excessively long runs is that rather than building you up, they do damage.  Go with what joescott said.

                I would look first at increasing your overall training volume maybe.  A lot can be achieved, at lower risk, by just getting your volume up.  If you are like so many other people who train for marathons on 40-50 mpw, there is a HUGE benefit to be gained by moving up to 60-70 mpw.

                 

                I have one "data point" where I went beyond 24 miles for a training run.  A friend of mine (2:24 guy, no less) said to consider going up to 26, 28 or even 30, so against my better judgment and that of my coach at the time (Jeff) I threw down a 27-miler one Sunday morning, and I am convinced to this day that one run ruined my otherwise nearly perfect training cycle.  Coincidentally or not, I spiraled down into an overtraining situation and had a disastrous race.... a race that should have been a PR by a LOT based on the workouts and miles I had been running leading up to that point.

                 

                It's the pace that's the difference. He could throw down a fairly relaxed 28 mile run in 3:00 hours, no doubt.  I used to do 20, 25, 30 mile long runs, repeat, when I pretended to be competitive, but then again, track workouts and interval workouts were in the 15 to 25 mile range, too, and I would not dream of making the long run more than 30% of the weekly mileage.

                 

                So, all in all, to the OP, I would definitely bump up the overall mileage first, definitely make sure you are running some hills, running some intervals, and have a basic overall balanced training plan.  If you are running 120mpw, and are a faster runner, and perhaps toy around with ultras, then a 30 mile long run is appropriate.  If you are running 40mpw - skip it. Build up a 6 month base with a 20 mile long run every week at around 75 mpw, and see if that might help a little more.  Then do some sharpening up for a couple of months,  race, and THEN see what you want to change. It should be very instructive.

                runmichigan


                  I agree with the others who recommend against doing long runs at or over the marathon distance.  In fact I would say that long runs of 20 - 22 miles are sufficient for marathon training.  Hal Higdon has an interesting element in some of his marathon training plans.  He has you doing a long slow run (1 to 1 1/2 minutes slower than your normal training pace) followed by a medium long run (8 - 12 miles) at a faster pace the next day.  This simulates you running the final part of the marathon on tired legs, but allows you to avoid much of the damage of running too long long runs.

                   

                  Of course this all is based on the following assumptions:  (1) You are NOT running your long runs too fast; (2) Your long run is no more than 30% of your total weekly mileage; and (3) Your training schedule balances the easy runs, long runs, hills, long intervals, and rest.


                  Feeling the growl again

                    Not much info to go on, but the most likely reason you ran into issues has to do with overall volume than the length of a single run.  I ran under 2:30 without topping 20 miles for the long run.  Being able to handle the full marathon is about the totality of the training, for months on end, not 1-2 long runs reaching some arbitrary length.

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     

                    I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills

                     

                       I threw down a 27-miler one Sunday morning

                       

                      :vom:

                      For some reason, a 27-mile training run sounds worse than a marathon.

                      Dave

                      BeeRunB


                        You most likely broke down in the final mile because "shit happens" in marathons. It could have been a half dozen reasons that it happened. The main one being it was the last mile. You certainly had the right pace if you maintained it that long. I wouldn't fixate on it. Doing a 24-miler is a lot of time on your feet that might not really pay any extra dividends. There are diminishing returns past a certain point in long runs. Just train wisely, getting adequate recovery, rest, and tapering. Avoid mixing the Gatorade and GU, as I've heard that mix tends to slosh around a bit and not get absorbed so readily (gives some people a bit of distress). Choose one or the other, train with it before the marathon to see how it goes. Run another marathon and most likely it will be a different experience. Good luck. 

                        AmoresPerros


                        Options,Account, Forums

                          Not much info to go on, but the most likely reason you ran into issues has to do with overall volume than the length of a single run.  I ran under 2:30 without topping 20 miles for the long run.  Being able to handle the full marathon is about the totality of the training, for months on end, not 1-2 long runs reaching some arbitrary length.

                           

                          The legend is that Grete ran under 2:33 without ever topping 12 miles, right?

                           

                          But we can probably posit that she was doing fairly serious training in her track years Smile

                          It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                          Why is it sideways?

                            Can you open your log so folks could take a look at your training? You'd get good advice that way.

                             

                            I'd say the information that you give as relevant to your inquiry -- the length of other long runs and the pace of your goal -- indicate that you may be underemphasizing the heart of marathon training, which has nothing to do with running long or running at a particular pace. The heart of marathon training is building a runner's body.

                             

                            It is easy to think that the key to good marathon training is replicating the race in practice. Yet common sense dictates that this can't be the right approach because marathon racing breaks the body down, and training is intended to build the body up. Longer long runs are always rolls of the dice because you risk breaking your body down instead of making it stronger.

                             

                            It is just as likely that your long runs led to your late race issues than the lack of those long runs (especially a 22 miler the day after a hard workout.)

                             

                            Final point -- the top marathoners use 20 mile runs regularly, but it's important to recognize that what their body knows when they do those runs is a 2 hour stimulus. Great marathon training is a lot of running from 60-120 minutes. We know the body responds well to runs of that length. Once you get beyond 2 hours regularly, unless you are running upwards of 12 hours a week, you are rolling the dice and hitting your body with a stimulus that could break it down depending on your recovery practices and the training that surrounds it.

                            DukeDB


                              I vote for "shit happens in marathons."

                               

                              I think the comments above regarding increasing overall volume and avoiding excessively long distance / duration long runs are consistent and accurate.  But, the only way to "make absolutely certain that something like what happened doesn't happen again" is to not enter the race.  Too many variables -- if you follow a sensible training, eating, and pacing plan then you'll never know what in particular to credit for success or blame for failure.  And after you achieve a goal, you'll never know how to repeat it or even how to guarantee that a hard effort won't end in collapse.  So you better enjoy the work, and enjoy the risk.

                               

                              Good luck.


                              Dream Maker

                                What ws your weekly mileage on average and at peak?

                                 

                                In the marathon, people think the long run is the key, and think some is good - more is better... but at some point it compromises the rest of your training. in volume and in hitting your quality workouts.  

                                Usually the issue isn't "uncharted territory"  Really, regardless of what you do race day will be new .. the pace you're going for the distance you're going... It's supposed to be all pieces coming together. The reason the training plans don't often do very long distance runs is because they break down more than they add.  Now whether I think a marathon distance long run or two will hurt you - probably not- but is it the best way to help you?

                                 

                                 

                                1