Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
Stotan Disciple
Brewing - BJ's Wholesale club going back tonight my daughter wants muffins and croissants.
Weatherboy - Congratulations on an amazing half. and that finish. 5:31 Just amazing.
Thinking should be done first, before training begins.
Weather - Congrats on the PR! Beast mode. Excited to see what you can do in the full next month.
CIMers enjoy the final taper week. Had a nice injury scare past few days. X Rays came back negative this morning, 90% likely soft tissue/tendon related injury. Doc says I should be good to go by Sunday. Feeling grateful to have potentially dodged another phantom taper injury. Looking ahead, goal will be to negative split, starting very conservatively and coming through half around 1:28. Already thinking about that finish area beer garden
Nimmals, I like your post-race plans there. Celebrate no matter what!
Problem Child
Brew - Pre marathon breakfast is always individual....but I would be sick if I had a bagel with 3 eggs! I’m never hungry pre race and mostly rely on liquid carbs. (Maurten drink mix at London this year)
3 eggs IS my morning breakfast. The liquid breakfast is interesting. 17 ounces seems like a lot of water and isn't that stuff mostly sugar? I guess I'd be a little worried about having nothing but liquids from a few hours before race time to the end of the race. I guess since london starts 2 hours after CIM it's a little different. I'll probably wake up around 4 and hop on the bus around 5:15. Shoot...do I need to switch my planned breakfast now?
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Woah woah JT, I haven't sandbagged at all this year! I turned over a new leaf with the theme of BOTT. I've gone for aggressive goals and sometimes missed pretty badly. I like your prediction, it gets me to 5:59:12 pace, which rounds down to 5:59. I'll take it! That's my "everything goes perfect" goal: break 6:00 in a marathon. Not sure if that counts as a front page goal or not, I'll let you decide since you say I sandbag I'm glad you're taking time off. I'm the biggest proponent of that on this board (have another 2 weeks completely off scheduled after CIM). Trust me, you will be fine. I know it's not great for your mental health but don't stress about your running. You probably will come out of this stronger than ever. Swim - I said this earlier and you may have missed it: your MP and T paces seem very far apart based upon VDOT. I highly doubt you have that sort of endurance gap between the two given your mileage. Also, you're still the only person without a goal up on the front page for CIM. Cinnamon - another great week! Hope your work actually does allow you to do Berlin. Andres - plenty of time before Houston. I wouldn't worry about that 10K at all. DW - in terms of dead zone running, I completely agree with you. I think the key is "what is the purpose of this run?" During marathon training, the purpose of easy runs is to recover for your next key workout, which necessitates them being slower. When you're just running easy runs all the time, you're not really recovering for any workouts, so you can run faster. More importantly, your legs will naturally feel faster. As long as you know what easy pace feels like, just go with it. My pace has crept down by a good 30 seconds over the last few weeks because I'm in the taper and much better trained. I've done my best to keep slowing down on the runs, but I'm not going to artificially keep my paces at what they were when I was in full training. Weather - (saving the best for last) big congrats! You finally put together a great race where it seemed like everything clicked. Pacing was perfect on a non-perfect weather day. I think you have no choice but to be thinking about 2:3X given this half and your workouts, which is obviously a massive PR but you can't be scared. I don't want to see you going out in the first half super slow like you did in Boston. Me - shoulder is still crap (I think this is going to be a 4-6 month issue honestly), but it's not impacting my running so I'm not worried at all for CIM. If anything it just may lead to my arm feeling a little more dead late in the race, but that is fine. Just more annoyed at how painful it is in the middle of the night. Revolving doors are my biggest enemy at the moment. Goal for me is to come through the half somewhere between 1:18:00 and 1:19:30, depending on how I'm feeling. Should be a fun tracking day. Makes things a little easier that it starts at 10 am EST!
Woah woah JT, I haven't sandbagged at all this year! I turned over a new leaf with the theme of BOTT. I've gone for aggressive goals and sometimes missed pretty badly. I like your prediction, it gets me to 5:59:12 pace, which rounds down to 5:59. I'll take it! That's my "everything goes perfect" goal: break 6:00 in a marathon. Not sure if that counts as a front page goal or not, I'll let you decide since you say I sandbag
I'm glad you're taking time off. I'm the biggest proponent of that on this board (have another 2 weeks completely off scheduled after CIM). Trust me, you will be fine. I know it's not great for your mental health but don't stress about your running. You probably will come out of this stronger than ever.
Swim - I said this earlier and you may have missed it: your MP and T paces seem very far apart based upon VDOT. I highly doubt you have that sort of endurance gap between the two given your mileage. Also, you're still the only person without a goal up on the front page for CIM.
Cinnamon - another great week! Hope your work actually does allow you to do Berlin.
Andres - plenty of time before Houston. I wouldn't worry about that 10K at all.
DW - in terms of dead zone running, I completely agree with you. I think the key is "what is the purpose of this run?" During marathon training, the purpose of easy runs is to recover for your next key workout, which necessitates them being slower. When you're just running easy runs all the time, you're not really recovering for any workouts, so you can run faster. More importantly, your legs will naturally feel faster. As long as you know what easy pace feels like, just go with it. My pace has crept down by a good 30 seconds over the last few weeks because I'm in the taper and much better trained. I've done my best to keep slowing down on the runs, but I'm not going to artificially keep my paces at what they were when I was in full training.
Weather - (saving the best for last) big congrats! You finally put together a great race where it seemed like everything clicked. Pacing was perfect on a non-perfect weather day. I think you have no choice but to be thinking about 2:3X given this half and your workouts, which is obviously a massive PR but you can't be scared. I don't want to see you going out in the first half super slow like you did in Boston.
Me - shoulder is still crap (I think this is going to be a 4-6 month issue honestly), but it's not impacting my running so I'm not worried at all for CIM. If anything it just may lead to my arm feeling a little more dead late in the race, but that is fine. Just more annoyed at how painful it is in the middle of the night. Revolving doors are my biggest enemy at the moment.
Goal for me is to come through the half somewhere between 1:18:00 and 1:19:30, depending on how I'm feeling. Should be a fun tracking day. Makes things a little easier that it starts at 10 am EST!
JMAC. I think more about execution then actual goal times. If I put together a sound race the finishing time will be pretty good. I try not to chase down a particular number until there s 5k to go. Ii only manually lap at 5k s just so I’m not focusing on time..I’m happy with how the cycle went and if I can get out a little better the first 15k I know I can close well.
HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04
RIP Milkman
Weather - great race report. I ran my first combo half/full recently and I hated not knowing who was in the half and who was in the full. You're in great shape and just need to keep doing what you're doing, don't implement anything crazy here. I don't want to see any 23 milers with 15 at MP and 2 at T.
Swim - makes complete sense on your racing, was more curious about your training also with the difference between T and M. Looking forward to see what you can do at CIM as well.
Brew - I generally eat a bagel with PB about 2 hours before a race. No way I could do a liquid only breakfast, I'd vomit from hunger.
Jay - sounds like one of my classic taper injuries! Glad X-rays were negative, I was told 2 days before a marathon I had a broken foot after X-rays (I didn't).
Me / Taper Questions - tapers are so weird. I was smashing 4x2T workouts with 8 miles of warmup during training, and yet 3x1T with only 4 mile warmup was very difficult this morning. Does anyone actually know what the physical reason for this is? It happens EVERY taper for me. I don't think it's psychological. I know a lot of people report feeling like this until a day or two before their marathon, but never heard a reason why our bodies do this.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
JMac - The body inherently know whats coming and in taper it shuts down so you feel lethargic almost. I fail all my big workouts in taper mode. My body knows to chill for the real thing. Hence anyone who gives up 6 miles into a marathon lacks mental toughness. If you train to do something and on any given day can't do half then your temporary non-successs is due to a lack of mental toughness. I know this will bring Cals and Andres out the woodwork lol.
Jayluf - Thank you i plan to have a good time regardless the results.
Brew - Maybe next time I will go to Tahoe again to look for this is it still in existence.
Nike idea of its track came from this piece of history.
Brew - yeah, that's a crazy amount of food to have sloshing around in your gut for 3 hours of hard work. But, as Mikkey pointed out, it's soooo individual. Cal previously talked about he has a super strong Russian gut upbringing so nothing upsets his stomach. I don't think the two have any correlation. I've, mistakenly, eaten a raw dove that had been marinating, thinking it had been cooked. Really didn't feel bad following that. I've eaten street food all over the world and tend to be fine. Yet my stomach twists in to knots as soon as I take my third gel in a race. If you've run on that breakfast before, and have been fine, great! But if not, I wouldn't start in this race.
Slammin - I like the up and down in your race planning! I think most of us are like that. We come up with these constantly changing and elaborate strategies in our heads the last week leading up to a race, thinking "this will be best" only to toss it aside when we get on the start line. I hope you toss it aside and go for the 2:30.
DW - I'm always amazed at how quickly you bounce back! I guess you have to with Houston on the schedule. Now's crunch time! I tend to run a lot more gray zone miles than you, primarily because I run much fewer real workouts. Sure, workouts would be better, but them is hard.
JT - Totally sucks that you're on the sideline. But hopefully this clears things up and gets you back to training. I totally get the mental part to running. That's often where I get my best work done as far as strategy goes.
Cinnamon - 64 miles is real deal stuff in my book. What you working towards? A marathon? Or just maintaining.
JMac - No clue about why things can be so tough. I remember years ago trying to run 800 meters at what I thought would be a reasonable 5k pace, two days before a 5k. i almost passed out. In the 5k, I averaged 10s faster than what I did the 800 in. I wouldn't rule out it being psychological, like what Slammin was saying.
Upcoming races: Boston
Mmmm Bop
Yeah London starts around 10am which suits me better as I travel up by bus and train on the morning of the race. I’ll have a bowl of cereal around 5am when I get up and will pack a banana and carb drink. The closer to the race the less hungry I become, but I do carb load well in the 2 days prior to a marathon. Do whatever makes you feel most comfortable as you don’t want to be trying anything new on race day!
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
weather - congrats! Happy for you - it's amazing though I still have faster marathon PR than you I guess just for next few months?
Nimmals - man, it's funny - if I didn't meet you in person I would think you are half-drunk all the time you are writing - there is some certain tone to it and some hurriedness of writing almost all the time No advice from me of course because most of you guys here are on totally different level than I am - only can give a bad advice.
JMac - it's actually encouraging you have the same taper "issues" all the time - means it's all good - I would be worried if it's different every time
Brew - I think I will try to wear blue t-shirt with a word "Running" on it - the one I bought in 2011 in Illinois - have no clue why but I feel I would like to wear it this time. If it's below 40oF I would wear red beanie, but looks like it will be around 48, so, I will probably not need it. As Andres said - eat whatever you ate before other successful marathons - it's all individual and works differently for each of us.
Andres - I am still amazed people call your 10K in Spain a failure - it would be a big PR for me - even when I was in really great shape back 4-5 years ago. But Houston is so close actually - not sure if it would make a difference for me if I started doing speed workouts for that at this time - for me it would be too late - but you are much younger, so, I would try - or at least a few Hansons style weeks?
jayluf - change in goal for CIM for you or stays the same?
JTR - yes, do not worry about stuff, get healthy, get to the point when your body wants you to run, not when your mind wants you to run.
Swim - I am not sure what JMac actually saying, but one thing is - I was always, always under impression that somehow your training is more promising than the final result. I know quite a few runners, mostly older than you, who didn't do a quarter of what you do on a regular basis but deliver faster results on a race day - like the old-timer kayry, for example. Hope it doesn't sound offensive - but I would try to look into it somehow - maybe less intensity? I do not know - but I feel your amazing training should pay much more.
Mikkey - I like Abba, but nevver loved them - they feel like a machine, not enough soul for me. Smokie have soul And I am watching you - so far I am confused with your light training and trying to understand where is the catch
DW - I do not agree on "gray" zone miles - reminds me arguments re "junk" miles. Imho, any miles better than no miles, without doubt, and there is no precise definition of "gray" zone miles - because we are way too different - I used to run bunch of "gray" / "junk" miles some time ago and it felt great - the results were confirming it.
Use of HR and running "by feel" - I do not wanna go into an argument about it because it is stupid. Stupid to not recognize value of HR in understanding of your day-to-day physical conditions. And "running by feel" makes me laugh - especially when people are saying they are running workouts by feel - stop lying to yourself guys! Right after you looked at your Garmin first time during your workout you already not running by feel - your head starts messing with your "feel" right at that moment.
Brew - yeah, that's a crazy amount of food to have sloshing around in your gut for 3 hours of hard work. But, as Mikkey pointed out, it's soooo individual. Cal previously talked about he has a super strong Russian gut upbringing so nothing upsets his stomach. I don't think the two have any correlation.
Wow... Did it sound like that? No, I didn't mean that - I was poisoned by food quite a few ties too - last time by "Russian" pelmeni from "Russian" restaurant - I have no clue why I ate that because I hated that place - I guess they felt it and took revenge on me. Once, during 2015 Boston marathon I visited porta-potties twice - I have a suspicion that it was 1 liter of Gatorade I had on a bus - one of my two worst marathons (the other one was Chicago but that was a mental torture mostly . But yes, if you have a pre-marathon food routine which was successful - follow it - you will have bigger chances to run through the race without much adventure.
Just a few days ago I was going to share my observation how much better I feel by the end of this cycle comparing to the last year and, boom, today's 3 miles @MP were just a monstrous effort - I was not able to get my legs down to 6:50 even for a moment and I was not able to get up my HR above 120 for most of the run - I just felt totally dead. There is no way it was psychological - it was pure physical - never had that kind of deadness in any of ~20 marathons cycles I have had before.
My week:
Mon - 5 @recovery (TM) (9:15)
Tue - 8.1 @GA (8:06)
Wed - 7.1 @GA (8:33)
Thu - 11.2 with 3x1200 (5:40-5:45) 3x800 (5:40-5:45)
Fri - 5 @recovery (TM) (9:24)
Sat - 10.2 @endurance with 2 sets of 6x100 strides
Sun - 13.6 @endurance (7:59)
Total: 60.4 miles
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
jmac could it just be due to not having a hard workout last week, or the cutback in miles letting the legs relax/recover some more so they're focused on building/repairing muscles?
HOLY SHIT! THIS PLACE IS AWESOME!!!!
nimmals I now want to go to Neblhorn.
Apparently there was an article about it too. Google earth shows it much better. Definitely a good hiding spot for a track in the 60s. I was already thinking of taking Highway 50 to CIM if snow required it. Now I want to just to stop and take a lap photo. Closest Strava segment shows a good shot of what I imagine was the track.
Brew - Maybe next time I will go to Tahoe again to look for this is it still in existence. Nike idea of its track came from this piece of history.
cal Aight. I'll keep an eye out for you. It might take a couple miles to spot you. I'm packing on the pounds so we can be as aerodynamiclly efficient as possible. I'll be wearing a head wrap just to keep my hair out of my eyes. I could get it cut but I'm trying to go for the long haired hippy look in my mid 30s before a real mid-life crisis hits me.
mikkey I was about to buy a Maurten water bottle and 320 drink mix just to carry with me for the first few miles based off your recommenation. I figured I shouldn't try that since I never trained like that. It's a good option to have for future training.
breakfast:eggs, bagel with cashew butter, coffee and some Gatorade have done me well for CIM previously. "The Magic of CIM" shouldn't be messed with. Bus loads at 5:30 so 4am breakfast is 3 hours before race time and everything should be digested. Never had a problem with it for 20s, although one was on an empty stomach I think.
y'all out here trying to do hard workouts the week OF a marathon are nuts. Taper week is supposed to be for tapering, not sharpening or tuning anything in.
You just called me half drunk said I'm rushing my sentences....
Then essentially confirms everything I said after disputing it. Cals, you must be fully drunk or in a running stupor because we said the same thing......
Junk Miles I dont believe there is such a thing as junk miles especially for a marthoner. For a 5ker, mmm maybe??? A Miler.. most definitely!!!
Activie recovery is an important part of training for marathoners. Unless youre into (FIRST)
Gray zone running is stupid especially when it is often the bulk of their runs or training paces. the only people who should gray zone run are 800/Milers and up to 5Ker. or people who run less than 30 miles a week. A good rule in marathoning, as volume rises intensity decreases especially in runs that are not your 2\3 a week workout. Especially for old farts like you and I.
Brewing if you have the coordinates ping me I want to visit it on Tuesday. I'm going to run a lap too. Hoping it'll get me inspired for London .
The Maurten 320 was my pre race drink and I used the gels during the race. I was very surprised at how easy the gels went down given the texture and will definitely use again!
Cal - Yep, it would be daft to disregard HR readings and I’ve found them very useful over the years. But I still consider myself more of a feel runner rather than a numbers guy.
CommanderKeen send me some of the 320 mix to try out. I'd never considered it for pre race. The gels have been working well. So well I told my local running store who just started carrying them I didn't care about the price because after the time in training and cost of the race to go cheap on food for a race seemed stupid. Apparently another local elite would have them mailed to her hotel from Maurten until this store carried them. I think the size and texture was what surprised me. Coming from GUs and Honey Stingers it's like having a steak to eat. I've said they remind me of Jello. Just not that super cold Jell-O that' kind of tears when you take a spoonful. Something between that and Jell-O Pudding.
Try PowerBar gel - mojito, vanilla, orange, apple - with caffeine - goes down amazingly comparing to other “gels” and pretty tasty.
Maybe next week. I already entered a lottery for a 50 miler in Tahoe so I’ll need something. Even if I don’t get in I have plenty of races I could try gels in.