Forums >Health and Nutrition>[Training for a Full Marathon] I need help with an injury, pain in lower calf.
Hey all, first off, thank you for the help and time.
I'll get right to it, here is the problem. I am an intermediate runner, I have been running on/off for 10 years. I have ran 4 1/2 Marathons. When I am not training for something, I run 13.1 every week just to maintain. I have tried training for a marathon a couple times but just can't seem to do it without injury.
I am 6'2, 185lbs and 39
I started training for the Columbus marathon about 3-4 weeks ago. I am starting to feel an old injury kind of creeping up that took me out of the race training last year. The pain is in my right calf. It feels like its pretty close to the bone. I don't feel it when I am running, I feel it whenever I stop. It typically doesn't happen until my mileage gets up over about the 14 mile run mark. I have a 15 miler tomorrow morning and I felt it a little on my pace training yesterday.
I have seen several docs and had xrays. The only thing that they have said is that one leg is shorter than the other and my body needs to account for that and train slowly, which I believe I am doing. Most of them just recommend stretches and tell me to take it slow.
My plan calls for 3 runs per week (I can't fit in any more) adding 1 mile per week to my long run and keeping my tempo and pace runs pretty similar, maybe adding 1 mile to those every 2 weeks. I am running a total of 32 miles per week at this point.
I do calf stretches the doctor has recommended but I was wondering if anyone has had the same situation and successfully treated and fixed the problem. I read an article on runners world that has claimed its a heel drop problem (http://www.runnersworld.com/as...pain-this-may-be-why). I have had 3 pairs of the same shoe which somewhat matches how long I have been bothered by this injury when I get up to high miles. I have had 3 pairs of mizuno wave rider 16's. I was wondering if anyone has had this issue and would a heel lift help the problem?
Thank you all very much for the help!
May your feet be swift and your body stay healthy,
Tom
I'm heading to a Chiro today who is more of a holistic doctor. He has a great rep!
My 15 miler went amazing. I paced SOOOOO slow. I ended up pacing at around 10:07 per mile versus my typically pace of 9:15. It seemed to help a lot.
The problem might be that I push myself too much and I can mentally take the pain and push through the fast and high miles, however, my body just isn't ready for it and breaks down. I don't notice any difference in form in early vs. late workouts....
I'll post up what the doctor says at some point tomorrow.
runktrun
Lot's of things to consider here, but since you honed in on your shoes possibly being the issue, do you have any older mizuno models that you could test run to try to rule out the drop change to the 16s? Glad your 15miler went smoothly! It could be as you suggest: your body telling you that you are running your long runs to fast and hard. But strange that the calf issue keeps cropping up in the same spot. Leg length discrepancy can certainly cause issues. A lot of PTs will wave away that complaint and say "very few people have perfectly symmetrical legs," but for some, a fraction of an inch difference could start to pose problems as the miles add up. Leg length discrepancy could also come from hip misalignment, so maybe your chiro has some insight.
Not running for my health, but in spite of it.
Kilkee
I hope that it's shoes! That can be easily fixed. I purchased two new pairs of shoes about 10 minutes ago. The Mizuno Hitogami and Asics GEL Venture.
I put some heel inserts in my shoes (both sides) to try and see if i can change the muscle that is striking the ground. I don't know what fixed my problem on Saturday, but it could be pace or heel inserts, or even my increased conditioning. I bumped up my training quite a bit to try and make sure conditioning wasn't an issue.
I'll post up how my shoes are later this week. I'll also provide some feedback after the chiro later today.
Thanks for the help and feedback, I really appreciate it!
You're welcome! Try to change only one variable at a time so that you can easily pinpoint (if that's the case...) what was bothering your calf. e.g. Don't switch to a new pair of shoes, put in heel lifts, AND get your back adjusted all at the same time!
The doctor confirmed that its Achilles tendinitis. He told me that he wants me on B2 (riboflavin) for the next 2 weeks, fairly large dosage. He says that it will enable my body to catch up on my body repairing itself. He says that I am pushing too hard and not leaving appropriate recovery time. In light of my last few workouts, I tend to agree.
I haven't heard of B2 helping out like this, but hey, I'm not doctor.
I also plan to switch out my shoes as it is time anyway. I can't get my wave rider 16's anymore and moved on to a new type of shoe. I'll post up here on my progress.
Thanks again!
The only thing that they have said is that one leg is shorter than the other and my body needs to account for that and train slowly, which I believe I am doing.
My right leg is 30 mm longer than my left as measured by a chiropractor. He recommended heel lifts. That was over ten years ago, and I still put 1/4" heel lift in my left running shoe.
Everybody has a different body, but three runs per week is not enough for almost all bodies. Each run is at least 1/3 of your weekly mileage. That is OK for a long run, but not for every run. Add in a tempo and pace run, and you have no easy runs.
You need to add easy runs, which are more correctly called aerobic base building runs and/or recovery runs.
JR has good advice about easy runs. Leave the garmin at home, don't worry about pace, make sure it is relaxing and enjoyable.
B vitamins help on a cellular level. I have a connective tissue disorder and also take Vit C (which is water soluble...I THINK...so you pee out the excess) to support collagen formation, so that might help. Of course, the first line of defense is a good diet, then supplement the good diet. I have no idea what your diet is like, but just want you to be cautious about thinking B12 will be your cure-all.
Eccentric loading of the Achilles has been shown to reverse tendonitis/osis.
But the Achilles tendonitis diagnosis still doesn't get to the root of WHY your calf starts to hurt in a fairly predictable pattern. Ideally, you'd want to fix that and not just treat the tendonitis as it pops up in training. See what new shoes can do for you, and try cycling a few slightly different makes/models. Good luck!
Try not stretching your injury.
Kilkee, just for a little clarification, I'm taking B2, not B12. I know that b12 does contain riboflavin so there probably isn't much difference between the two. I don't know if that has any significance on your comments/recommendations. Do you think I should step up my b12?
Here is an update on my process.
I have taken advice from JRMichler and Kilkee and included some easy runs. My new training plan adds several easy runs and some cross training. I split my peak runs over a Saturday and Sunday for one of them, maybe 2.
Please take a look, I would love some feedback.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1r_-cyMQFn65_KbFVw1gAayhkHx_-ZY7SDrItFEh8raI/edit?usp=sharing
In terms of the injury, I have ordered the new wave riders from Mizuno (18). So I am still in my current pair that has about 300 miles on it, they are holding strong and should be fine to cycle in the new plan later this week.
I am staying healthy!! I had a pretty crazy week last week as I was traveling and had a lot of colleagues that wanted to run with me on different days and I had a company 5k (came in third!). I think the heal inserts are helping so much.
I understand that I changed a lot of variables at one time, I don't know if one or all of them have impacted my injury, but here they are. This is mostly due to fear of injury, at this point last year is where I got hurt and had to drop out of the marathon. I am just being as proactive as I can. I have only actually felt the injury very slightly, I may be over rotating, but its working!
1. Heel inserts
2. Chiropractic Adjustment
3. Changed my warmup to include 15 minutes of SLOW running, 11 minute miles or so, sometimes even longer
4. B2 supplements
5. Introduction of easy runs per everyone's advice.
Later this week, I will switch in my new wave riders for one of my shorter runs, most likely the tempo run on Thursday. I don't think I will get them before my run tomorrow. Switching in the new shoes isn't because of injury, its just time to do it. Plenty of time to fold them into the rotation and have them broken in for the marathon.
I just got back from my Chiropractor / holistic. He says that the B2 is working. I've logged 75 miles since I've seen him last and I've been injury free! Something is working!
He asked me to run at my normal pace for my endurance run this weekend. I'm pretty excited.
Still interested in feedback on my marathon plan. Thanks
Glad to hear the easy run/vitB combo is working! B2 is riboflavin; all B vitamins help with metabolism, so it may be worthwhile to get a B complex supplement. I'm pretty sure all B vits are water soluble, so you'll pee out the extra, but double check with a health professional.
I think your training plan is a good start, but try adding another easy day (3-4mi) instead of XT; consistently running 5 days a week will really help with improve your basic aerobic fitness and running economy more than your 3 day plan. A few critiques:
1. Your tempos are too long to be true tempos. Tempo pace is generally defined as the pace you could sustain for a 10mi RACE, so an 8 mile tempo is either too much work or too slow. To start, scale it back to a 20min tempo, then build to 30min, then 40min. 40min should be the upper end of what you can handle for a tempo run. Tempo runs are great, though. I didn't look at your paces to see how fast you should be running them, but go to mcmillianrunning.com and enter a recent hard effort/race time (like 5k or 10k) and see what it suggests as tempo paces, try that pace, and adjust to fit your specific fitness level.
2. Don't abandon speed work all together, you just have to be smart about it. Leg speed can help with your efficiency and make even longer races like marathons easier. Try making every other Tuesday something like 4 x 200 + 4 x 400 with equal time jog recovery between. These should be around mile race pace, maybe a bit slower to get through the 400s. Again, check out the McMillian site to see what they suggest. But don't force the speedwork if your calf flares up.
3. Your long run build up is great, except for the split run in sept (15 and 15) and your last 20. I don't think splitting the long run that one weekend serves a purpose, unless it's for schedule/time management reasons. If you are feeling healthy and fit and making good gains, try throwing in some goal marathon race pace in the end of your long runs. Eg: 20mi with last 4 at goal MP. For me, that would be 16mi @ 7:00-7:20 pace, then right into the last 4mi @ 6:40-6:30 pace. Teaches your body to run race pace when fatigued. Your last 20mi is a bit close to your race day. I personally would do something like a race simulation of 16mi with last 4-6mi at marathon pace.
4. The taper. I don't think you are running high enough mileage to warrant a big taper, so don't worry about cutting your mileage drastically in the last two weeks. Consider replacing your tempo on Oct 8th with a marathon pace run plus striders or 200s to keep the legs snappy. Then also run a few miles at marathon pace the week prior so your body is familiar with your race pace.
Of course, do what feels right to you, and back off if needed. It's better to get to the line of a marathon undertrained but healthy than on the verge of injury! Good luck and have fun!
I took away a rest day and added an easy run 2-3 Miles. I want to keep my XT.
I added pace times to my training sheet. Just to give you an idea, I'm not advanced by any stretch, I finished my last 1/2 in 1:59hrs and wanted to do the full in <4:00 hours.
Numbers below correspond to your feedback numbering
1. I cut down on the tempo runs. The 8 mile tempo runs you saw were artifacts from my old plan that I didn't update that had already passed. The new tempo runs I had set to 40 minutes. I was planning on doing sprints until I dropped to work on building my fast twitch muscles. Are you suggesting that I just take on a run at a fast pace for 20 minutes in lieu of that?
2. Added speed workout every other Tuesday. Used the McMillan site for pace.
3. Splitting the long run is advice that I received from a reputable local marathon coach. His claim is once your runs get over 3 hours, the law of diminishing returns apply and you can get a ton more benefit splitting the long run when you get up over 3 hours. I always throw in some goal paces at the end of my long runs . My goal pace is 9:09 and I have a 20 miler that I am targeting 9:15 pace, should I back off from that and just do the faster miles only at the end and something slower in the early parts? I dropped the last 20 miler down to 16.
4. I was modeling after the Hal Higdon's Intermediate 2 taper (and most of his intermediate 2 for that matter!)
Thank you again for the help and feedback. That was a very thoughtful response with fantastic feedback. I have taken all of your suggestions and incorporated most of them into the plan. I am interested on your thoughts about what the marathon coach said with diminishing returns. If you think its bologna, I can compress the 2 days into one and just do a 22 miler. I wouldn't mind getting it done in a day.
Another note: all the paces reflected in the sheet are goal paces. I probably won't hit these times.
Take care,
So far so good!
I have actually been hitting my goal paces for every run so far.
The B2 is doing great. I have no unexpected discomfort in my calf. It's been amazing. I don't know what it was that did it, but the combination of variables that I trained all helped out. My biggest problem now is just building the training plan correctly, I think I'll post up in the marathon forum as that really isn't an injury issue.
Thanks again all!
Tom, thanks for this thread & for the courtesy of the updates. I am experiencing a similar injury & will consider the corrective measures you've taken.