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On the subject of VO2 max (Read 890 times)

runnerdave67


    As far as the anaerobic training goes, it seems that the more I run fast, the less difficult it becomes to run at a given, faster pace, even when breathing hard...again, I am inexperienced in these waters.

     

    I guess everyone defines "tempo run" a little differently - maybe I won't worry about it so much as long as I am making consistent improvement

    in my own workouts.


    Fat butt on couch

      As far as the anaerobic training goes, it seems that the more I run fast, the less difficult it becomes to run at a given, faster pace, even when breathing hard...

       

      Sounds like you have rediscovered the reason to do that type of training for yourself.  Wink

      "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

       

        As far as the anaerobic training goes, it seems that the more I run fast, the less difficult it becomes to run at a given, faster pace, even when breathing hard...again, I am inexperienced in these waters.

         

        I guess everyone defines "tempo run" a little differently - maybe I won't worry about it so much as long as I am making consistent improvement

        in my own workouts.

         

        Dave, you've got 7 runs labelled as hard, tempo, or race in the last 7 days along with 6 labeled as easy, and the distance run easy is less per workout. Tempo, steady state, hard, whatever you want to call it, shouldn't be that much of your running, and I also get the impression you're constantly racing yourself in training. Three times a week is as often as I've ever done speedwork, and that was mostly when I was training for 800 - 3000m races.

         

        Just looking at the goals you've got stated, unless neither the 1:40 or 43 min goals are any challenge to you whatsoever, your training way too fast on your easy runs as well as too many hard ones. I know this type of training is fun, but you'll get much better results in the long run (months, not years) by running more easy.

        2013 Goal: Make 3:00:16 go away - FAIL.

        2014 Goal: Make 3:00:16 go away.

          As a workout - Tempo / LT run as per Pfitz is 15-20 mins warm-up, 20-40 mins tempo pace, 20 mins cool down.

           

          For "slower" runners, he defines tempo pace as the pace with which you can race a 10k-15k. For faster runners, its the speed at which you run the HM. I think i got this broadly right.

           

           

          Yeah - in advanced marathoning there are essentially 6 different training paces that are used:

           

          Marathon pace - your target pace (although some other people recommend using a pace that reflects your current state of fitness, rather than                                                                      your target)

          Tempo pace - somewhere between 15k and 21k race pace

          Interval pace - 5k race pace.

          long/medium run pace - 10-20% slower than marathon pace.

          General aerobic pace - 15-25% slower than marathon pace.

          Recovery - pace isn't explicitly specified - but slower than all of the above - so a maximum speed of 25% slower than marathon pace.

           

          All (most of?) the schedules in the book also include some "tune up races",  so it's also anticipated that you'll do some racing.


          HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

            Yeah - in advanced marathoning there are essentially 6 different training paces that are used:

             

            Marathon pace - your target pace (although some other people recommend using a pace that reflects your current state of fitness, rather than                                                                      your target)

            Tempo pace - somewhere between 15k and 21k race pace

            Interval pace - 5k race pace.

            long/medium run pace - 10-20% slower than marathon pace.

            General aerobic pace - 15-25% slower than marathon pace.

            Recovery - pace isn't explicitly specified - but slower than all of the above - so a maximum speed of 25% slower than marathon pace.

             

            All (most of?) the schedules in the book also include some "tune up races",  so it's also anticipated that you'll do some racing.

             

            I'm guessing that "interval pace" isn't for 200s or 400s then, cause that sounds kind of easy for stuff that short?

             

            Then again, maybe in advanced marathoning you don't do such short intervals?

            It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.

              I'm guessing that "interval pace" isn't for 200s or 400s then, cause that sounds kind of easy for stuff that short?

               

              Then again, maybe in advanced marathoning you don't do such short intervals?

               

              Not sure about the whole book, but the plan I'm using from it has intervals from 600 to 1600 meters--no 200 or 400. 

              "When a person trains once, nothing happens. When a person forces himself to do a thing a hundred or a thousand times, then he certainly has developed in more ways than physical. Is it raining? That doesn't matter. Am I tired? That doesn't matter, either. Then willpower will be no problem." 
              Emil Zatopek

                I'm guessing that "interval pace" isn't for 200s or 400s then, cause that sounds kind of easy for stuff that short?

                 

                Then again, maybe in advanced marathoning you don't do such short intervals?

                 

                Yeah - for the training schedules in the book you start out with something like 6x800 and then work up to longer intervals at the same pace if I recall correctly.

                runnerdave67


                  Dave, you've got 7 runs labelled as hard, tempo, or race in the last 7 days along with 6 labeled as easy, and the distance run easy is less per workout. Tempo, steady state, hard, whatever you want to call it, shouldn't be that much of your running, and I also get the impression you're constantly racing yourself in training. Three times a week is as often as I've ever done speedwork, and that was mostly when I was training for 800 - 3000m races.

                   

                  Just looking at the goals you've got stated, unless neither the 1:40 or 43 min goals are any challenge to you whatsoever, your training way too fast on your easy runs as well as too many hard ones. I know this type of training is fun, but you'll get much better results in the long run (months, not years) by running more easy.

                  Right. The funny thing for me is that there are days where I feel like I could just run and run at my "race" pace, or do 2 tempo runs in a day -

                  I have to practice restraint. The downside I've found to doing too much fast running is that eventually it catches up to me,

                  and I have a day or so where I can only run slow.

                   

                  In terms of training intensity and % of workouts, how about something like 25% easy, 55% medium, and 20% hard? For instance, right now

                  6:15 is a "hard" 5K pace for me. For tempo runs 4+ miles, my training pace is 6:30-6:45. For anything over 6 miles, I run around 7:15-7:30.

                  Could this be as simple as sticking to the upper limit of the ranges on "easier" days?


                  Fat butt on couch

                    In terms of training intensity and % of workouts, how about something like 25% easy, 55% medium, and 20% hard? For instance, right now

                    6:15 is a "hard" 5K pace for me. For tempo runs 4+ miles, my training pace is 6:30-6:45. For anything over 6 miles, I run around 7:15-7:30.

                    Could this be as simple as sticking to the upper limit of the ranges on "easier" days?

                     

                    I don't know man, 75% of your volume moderate to hard?  Is that what you mean?  If so, I don't see being able to handle that very long.

                     

                    Look at January in my log....I think my workout balance was pretty decently planned....and also not that some of the distance logged as workouts (interval/tempo/fartlek/progression)...probably ~40-50% of that total....was easy running as part of a warmup or cooldown that I did not bother to split out and log seperately.

                     

                    % done as workouts may increase some as mileage decreases, but I'd say a better balance would probably be closer to 50-60% easy, ~20-25% moderate, 10-15% hard.

                    "If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does.  There's your pep talk for today.  Go Run." -- Slo_Hand

                     


                    LateBloomer

                      As mentioned earlier, the "VO2 max" calculated on this site is not your true VO2 max. I think it can still be somewhat usefull though. Daniel's distinguishes between the actual measured value and the calculated value by refering to the calculated value as your "VDOT". VDOT takes into account the circumstances of a particular run such as terrain, temperature, how you feel on a certain day as well as your own running economy. So two people can finish a race in the same time having the same VDOT but have a very different VO2 max. I think that if you run a time trial or race in similar conditions to your goal race then you can use the VDOT to determine your training/racing paces.

                       

                      Regardless of what tool you use to set your paces (HR, VDOT, McMillan calculator...), I agree with the others that you seem to be running way too hard too often...Daniels's recommends that Reps (for speed and running economy) be <5% of weekly total, Intervals (for VO2 workouts) be <8% of weekly total, Tempo runs (to increase lactate threshold) be <10% of weekly total, and the other 77% of your weekly total should be easy or long runs. i think most of what i have read (phitzinger, douglas, higdon...) all more or less agree with the percentages given by Daniel's.

                      2013 Goals

                      Just keep running...

                      runnerdave67


                        Maybe the VO2 max isn't as important as the perceived effort - that's what I've been lately going by more than anything else. I have days when I

                        do a run that is a tempo by definition yet feels easy, and then there are other days when even easy runs feel difficult. Right now my main

                        concern is building a strong base; I'm trying to hit around 35-40 miles a week consistently without injury.

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