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Top of Foot Pain, Anyone? (Read 1993 times)

    I know online diagnoses are pretty worthless, so for context purposes: I'm a guy who's always had fairly prominent veins in my feet.  One in particular is quite large indeed and runs right over the little bony knob about midway between my ankle and the base of my big toe.   About a month ago, I felt a sharp pain there.  I felt it an hour later, and the vein had become quite hard and cable-like.  Painful if I pressed on it, too.  It's been more or less like that for a month now.

    Been to the doc, who (mis)diagnosed it as a tendon issue and sent me to PT.  PT looked at it, said it's a vein issue, and sent me back to the doc.  I called timeout and am deciding what to do next.  It's a little painful but doesn't get in the way of training or racing.  My main worry is that I'm damaging it more and more by continuing to train (and stress it) -- it's always sore and swollen post-workout.

    All that said, has anyone experienced either a similarly weird vein thing like that or just top-of-foot pain?  Any ideas what yours was, what caused it, what cured it?  Just wondering this is common to runners or if I'm a veiny freak.

    “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

      I'm not familar at all with a big vain getting hardened; but many of pains (of various reasons) on the top of the foot can be eased with this lacing: http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/lacingthelydiardway.aspx.  It can be a bit tricky and confusing if the material used for the shoe is very frimsy or the shoe lace eye-lets are odd number (you know what i mean).  Even if not, it's still a bit confusing which one to pull when you wear the shoe but I actually swear by it and I do this lacing with almost all my shoes (not all of them because of the above reasons). 

       

      There are other ways to actually skip crossing of the lace over where the pain is.  There was a great runner by the name of Patti Catalano (now Dillon) from Boston.  She never gotten around to win the Boston marathon but won Honolulu and Falmouth among many other races.  She was one of the best road runners in the country back in the late 70s and early 80s.  All the pictures I've seen of her, she had the shoe lace NOT crossing in the middle of the shoe--instead of crossing, it just went up one eye-let and crossing starts there.  When I got together with her a few years back, she was still doing the same lacing so I asked her why she does that.  She said she had a very high top of her foot and, if she crossed the shoe lace, it hurt so she just simply skipped that part. 

       

      In the past, when I had some sore spot on the top of the foot, I'd simply skip that area by relacing it.  It almost always works.  If the way I'm explaining is too confusing, I think I can put PPT together to show it more clearly visually--it just invovled a bit of work so if this explanation is enough, that's good but if not, let me know.  I might try to put it together for the hell of it.


      day after day sameness

        I had one of the large veins on the back side of my hand, running up my forearm, turn to hard after it was used for an IV. Dr said that this sometimes happens from damage to the vein, it gets painful for a week or two and sort of 'al dente', then calcifies and is abandoned by the body. They checked it carefuly to make certain there was no plastic needle cover shoved in from the IV, then shrugged and explained it as 'stuff happens, your body will work around it'.

        I've done my best to live the right way; I get up every morning and go to work each day...

          I'm not familar at all with a big vain getting hardened; but many of pains (of various reasons) on the top of the foot can be eased with this lacing: http://www.lydiardfoundation.org/training/lacingthelydiardway.aspx.  It can be a bit tricky and confusing if the material used for the shoe is very frimsy or the shoe lace eye-lets are odd number (you know what i mean).  Even if not, it's still a bit confusing which one to pull when you wear the shoe but I actually swear by it and I do this lacing with almost all my shoes (not all of them because of the above reasons).

          Nobby, thanks for the link to the Lydiard lacing method.  I'll give that  try and see if it relieves the post-run discomfort/swelling.  I'm fairly graphics-oriented, so the stills sequence definitely made it clearer.

           

          I'm familiar with Patti Catalano from reading about back in the 80s.  Basic thing to just skip an eyelet pair -- why didn't I think of it?!

           

          I noticed my "racing" shoes (NB 903 with Yankx) hurt it worse than my training shoes (NB 1011 and NB817 with their spirally laces).  Much as I like the Yankx in those 903s, I may switch back ... although I might try Lydiard-lacing the Yankx, if that's even possible.

          “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman

            I had one of the large veins on the back side of my hand, running up my forearm, turn to hard after it was used for an IV. Dr said that this sometimes happens from damage to the vein, it gets painful for a week or two and sort of 'al dente', then calcifies and is abandoned by the body. They checked it carefuly to make certain there was no plastic needle cover shoved in from the IV, then shrugged and explained it as 'stuff happens, your body will work around it'.

            So you just have a stretch of dead vein in that hand now?   The podiatrist said that worst-case, he can remove the vein.  Really?  It's pretty big (if I didn't mention that before), so I'm kinda wondering where all the blood will go that it's been piping.

             

            Two years ago, I wouldn't have cared.  Now that I'm firmly addicted to running again and my peak is behind me (I'm approaching 50), I'm feeling protective of what running is still in front of me.

            “Everything you need is already inside.” -- Bill Bowerman


            Blaine Moore (MM#2867)

              I answered this question in my newsletter a couple years ago, and basically have the same suggestion as Nobby...lace around the pain point.

               

              The method I recommended was to just head straight up and not cross over at all for the point where it hurts, rather than the double eyelet straight across method Lydiard recommends (although that looks pretty effective in general...I'll need to try that.)

               

              http://www.runtowin.com/tips/how-do-i-stop-a-pain-above-my-toes-when-i-run.html

              Run to Win
              24 Marathons, 17 Ultras, 16 States (Full List)




              Bacon Party!

                Currently working through my own top-of-foot pain issues.

                 

                Skipping eyelets over the problem areas has worked a treat in my road shoes.

                 

                But... doing the same in my trail shoes (which I use on technical trails), leaves my foot slopping around in the shoe. NOT a good thing when doing steep descents or with uneven footing. I fear it will lead to blisters and/or blackened toe nails; it also seems like I'd be more likely to snap a hoof.

                 

                I don't like to do the last (top most) lace too tight as it causes problems with the anterior tibialis and extensor tendons as they make the bend at the ankle.

                 

                Any ideas?

                 

                I'm thinking I'll try the Lydiard style for this weekend's 50K.

                Liz

                pace sera, sera

                  But... doing the same in my trail shoes (which I use on technical trails), leaves my foot slopping around in the shoe. NOT a good thing when doing steep descents or with uneven footing. I fear it will lead to blisters and/or blackened toe nails; it also seems like I'd be more likely to snap a hoof.

                   

                  I don't like to do the last (top most) lace too tight as it causes problems with the anterior tibialis and extensor tendons as they make the bend at the ankle.

                   

                  I hear you, Liz.  The advantage of Lydiard lacing, it seems, is that it tends to hold indivicually over each eye-let--probably because the lace over-wraps on the side and holds them down.  In other words, you can make it a bit more loose on the top for the reason you just mentioned--I feel the same way.  Of course, if ou skip the middle part, it does get a bit hard to do it--you are almost forced to tie the lace more tightly at the bottom and the top.

                   

                  I've never tried it myself but I remember Frank Shorter, because his feet were so narrow, used to tape his spike shoes with duct tape.  It's kinda waste to do that every time you go for a run but, for something like a 50k trail race, you may want to consider trying it.  So basically you wrap your shoes at the bottom and the top with duct tape.  Obviously the problem with shoe lace is that it's so narrow and it almost pinches that specific area.  With duct tape, as with velcro tape for shoes, it's much wider and dispurse the pressure better.  If the race is this weekend, you won't have much time to test it but try it and see how it feels.

                   

                  Good luck with the race!


                  Bacon Party!

                    ...

                     

                    I've never tried it myself but I remember Frank Shorter, because his feet were so narrow, used to tape his spike shoes with duct tape.  It's kinda waste to do that every time you go for a run but, for something like a 50k trail race, you may want to consider trying it.  So basically you wrap your shoes at the bottom and the top with duct tape.  Obviously the problem with shoe lace is that it's so narrow and it almost pinches that specific area.  With duct tape, as with velcro tape for shoes, it's much wider and dispurse the pressure better.  If the race is this weekend, you won't have much time to test it but try it and see how it feels.

                     

                    Good luck with the race!

                    Thanks for the ideas, Nobby.

                    Since I'm not "racing" this weekend, I'm not concerned about trying new things. It's all just training for the bigger stuff to come. :-)

                     

                    I'll start with the Lydiard setup. And bring along another pair of shoes that may just get the duct-tape treatment. We'll have access to our stuff twice during the run; so, I can change shoes along the way.

                    Liz

                    pace sera, sera

                      Are you running 50k for training!?  Are you nuts??? ;o)  Yeah, I did that once too...


                      Bacon Party!

                        Are you running 50k for training!?  Are you nuts??? ;o)  Yeah, I did that once too...

                        I AM nuts. Currently training for Burning River 100, with this FA 50K and Mohican 50mi along the way. Don't want to give up much to recovery, so just keeping these events as training runs (unless I'm feeling frisky - and I might be, come Mohican).

                        Liz

                        pace sera, sera

                          Another vote for Lydiard lacing! I used to have all sorts of random top of foot pain and even had a stress fracture (two actually!). I have narrow feet and used to tie my shoes aboutthistight. After switching to the Lydiard style lacing, no more pain.

                          I don't half-ass anything

                           

                          "I have several close friends who have run marathons, a word that is actually derived from two Swahili words: mara, which means 'to die a horrible death' and thon, which means 'for a stupid T-shirt.' Look it up." - Celia Rivenbark, You Can't Drink All Day if You Don't Start in the Morning

                           

                            I don't like to do the last (top most) lace too tight as it causes problems with the anterior tibialis and extensor tendons as they make the bend at the ankle.

                             

                            Any ideas?

                             

                            I'm thinking I'll try the Lydiard style for this weekend's 50K.

                             

                            Yup, you nailed it, internet doc.  that's exactly where it hurts.  anterior tibialis.

                             

                            After an 8 hr flight and easy 8 mi run,  i now have some nice swelling going on.  of course, hotel has no ice machine so i'm calling room service to have some delivered.  might as well have them bring some beer so as to not waste the trip.

                             

                            will try the parallel (Lydiard) lacing tomorrow, skipping the top pair of eyes (or two).  hopefully this along with some aleve will help manage it.  hate to miss a run for such a silly injury!

                               

                               

                              After an 8 hr flight and easy 8 mi run,  i now have some nice swelling going on.  

                               

                              Long flights are killer. It's the only good use I've found for my cormpression socks.

                              Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and rogues
                              We're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes
                                Another vote for Lydiard lacing! I used to have all sorts of random top of foot pain and even had a stress fracture (two actually!). I have narrow feet and used to tie my shoes aboutthistight. After switching to the Lydiard style lacing, no more pain.

                                 

                                Lacing, the "lydiard" way. seems very interesting and quite effective to most runners.

                                we should prioritize our health and body. my site

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