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What happens with "overtraining?' (HR question) (Read 947 times)


Finished!

    A friend has recently converted to training with an HRM - she's confirmed what I have thought all along - that I am likely overtraining (I can't for the life of me slow down on my training runs, I have no HRM, and I really feel like I'm barely going faster than a trot) - anyhow, I took my pulse a couple times along the way (granted, there is probably a fair amount of error as I opted for the 6second pulse count - anyhow, I'm likely doing most of what are supposed to be my "easy" runs somewhere close to my "lactate threshold". I have read some of the other threads on this and I'm still rather baffled - Am I doing myself a disservice in my training by running too fast? I got particularly interested in this as I did notice with the longer runs I was starting to get some random aches and pains - I've also noticed that I have generally stopped making pace improvements, and have actually gotten a bit slower -though one could argue there has been no statistical change Wink I'll be keeping my eyeballs on the "lactate threshold" training thread in the Running section too.
    Walk + Jog = wog.
    I'm trying to Lose 5% at a time
    I support Heifer International - join me by donating via my registry
      I'm interested in this too. My "easy" 4 mile run today at at an average HR of 170 with a max of 177. Yesterday's run of 6 miles was a 166 average with a max of 173. I feel like if I run any slower I'll be walking. Which on one run not to long ago, I had to walk for awhile and my time was not much different. I've been just ignoring everything and using the preceived rate of effort. I can carry on a conversation at this pace so . . . .

      "Nothing's better than the wind to your back, the sun in front of you, and your friends beside you." Aaron Douglas Trimble

        ok. I'm wondering the same thing. My 11mile run yesterday, my avg hr was 162 and my max 173. I've had my Garmin for 8 months and still don't know the purpose of my hr stats.
        Jennifer mm#1231
          If you honestly feel like you're "barely trotting," you definitely aren't near your LT pace. How is your breathing on your easy runs? Can you talk? Sing a bit? Or are you gasping for air and ready to pass out? How do you actually feel? How does it feel when you finish? If it honestly feels easy, if you can maintain it easily, and you aren't even breathing hard ... you're fine. Common sense and how you feel trumps the HRM. Stupid things. On the other hand, if you're doing every training run at race pace, pushing that hard, you won't improve. But you don't need a machine to know if that's what you're doing in. And eventually your body will slow you down through injury.
          E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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            I'm no expert - but the numbers don't mean anything if you don't obtain your max HR through a challenge test (provided you are medically cleared to perform one!). If I were to use the 220-age formula, my max HR would be 170. My average resting HR(RHR) is 46. 170-46= 124. By this formula to run aerobic at 80% - (124 x .8) + 46= 145 My current max HR is actually 197 (hill intervals on a treadmill) 197-46 = 151 (151 x .8) + 46 = 167. That's a big difference! A good book is "Heart Monitor Training for the compleat Idiot" - yes, that's how it's spelled! Author is John L. Parker, and there are training plans for people at different levels. He keeps it simple, and it's a good way to get started.

            Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the number of moments that take our breath away...(unkown)




            Go With The Flow
            Thyroid Support Group

              There's a big difference between running too fast on your easy days and overtraining. Overtraining is an actual physiological condition in which your endocrine system gets out of whack from too much stress to the body--most of us non-elites have never experienced overtraining. Running too fast on your easy days is much more common and though not nearly as bad as overtraining is still to be avoided because it will prevent you from making progress. I doubt you're doing your easy runs at your LT pace. My guess is you are off on estimating your LT pace--if you don't have much racing experience it is hard to know what to use as your LT pace. Still, learing how to take it easy on the easy days is a must. If you run everything "medium" you limit how much running you can handle and how hard you can work on the hard days.

              Runners run.

                There's a big difference between running too fast on your easy days and overtraining. Overtraining is an actual physiological condition in which your endocrine system gets out of whack from too much stress to the body--most of us non-elites have never experienced overtraining.
                You can use your resting HR first thing in the morning before you get out of bed to clue you in to overtraining. As you get more and more "fit" your resting heart rate should decrease gradually(only up to a certain point and then it should stay mostly steady). Take it 3 days in a row and use the average. If you do this every other week or so you may notice a trend. If you are really overtraining and messing up your endocrine system your resting heart rate will start to increase, which is a sign to take either the frequency or intensity (or both) down a notch.
                Scout7


                CPT Curmudgeon

                  Another thing to consider here is overall fitness. While I have found that many who are new to running will reap the benefits of using an HRM initially, it can be EXTREMELY frustrating. The reason is exactly what you mentioned: it feels like you're doing nothing. That is, to some extent, the point. They're called easy runs for a reason. Also, as was mentioned before, the only way to accurately gauge what your training zones should be is to do an actual test. Any formula out there is not going to be as accurate. Also, it's better to do it manually rather than letting the device pick your zones for you. Keep in mind, anything that's between 70-80% of your LTHR (Max HR is a bit of a misnomer) is considered the best for aerobic miles. So if your LTHR is 190, you should be somewhere between 133-152.


                  Now that was a bath...

                    I'm with you on this one. I know that I have run 90% of all my runs too fast. I think I can count only four runs where I ran slow enough to not have 'breathing issues' at some point. At the begining some of my runs were at a discomfort level where the whole thing stretched my lungs to the extreme (I don't even dare smile let alone converse). It takes a lot of my will power sometimes to finish when I run like this. One thing that I have learnt - I have a lot of willpower. Stupid training method. I'm sure you would all agree. One fact that I think is unarguable though is that I have seen a huge improvement in my running. For instance my long run last weekend (11.5km) at a 9:49 pace was incredibly easy to me. That was one of my four without breathing issues. I could never have done that when I started 2 months ago. I would have run it. I would have run it at that pace if I could but I could not have called it easy. For me - pushing extra hard has helped me improve. I now run faster - easier - longer. Is that not what I am hoping to achieve? For me though I don't think of this as overtraining. Overtraining (for me - running too far too quickly with too many hills) most probably caused my knee injury. But training too fast has helped me to feel challenged and kept my interest sparked. I do agree with what Mike said though - 'If you run everything "medium" you limit how much running you can handle and how hard you can work on the hard days.' As I run further on my long runs I may well find that I need to step back on the pace on my 'easy' runs to conserve my energy and give them my all. Who knows. I'm new to all of this and i've already been injured so I should probably shut up! Wink I do know that I can judge very well what conversational running would be without a heart monitor. All you need is a mouth to figure out that one Tongue Claire xxx
                  • jlynnbob "HTFU, Kookie's distal tibia"
                  • Where's my closet? I need to get back in it.


                    Finished!

                      If you honestly feel like you're "barely trotting," you definitely aren't near your LT pace. How is your breathing on your easy runs? Can you talk? Sing a bit? Or are you gasping for air and ready to pass out? How do you actually feel? How does it feel when you finish? . . . On the other hand, if you're doing every training run at race pace, pushing that hard, you won't improve. But you don't need a machine to know if that's what you're doing in. And eventually your body will slow you down through injury.
                      I have been running at what is essentially the equivalent to my race pace. The "barely trotting" is my own perceived notion of my speed - I honestly feel that (esp on the uphills) if i was to slow down at all, I would be walking - as it is, i seriously doubt that I have both feet in the air at the same time... As for the RPE, that is why I'm bringing the whole thing up - I have always "huffed and puffed" - well, on the uphill portion of my route - which is about 1/2 of the route - I don't believe I could ever get my heartrate up on a downhill section as I fear for my knees and ankles and I don't elongate my stride, and I cant seem to get my feet to move fast enough to really go too fast -if that makes sense. On the flats and uphills, I can probably manage a monosyllabic conversation - and the singing wouldn't come easily - it would definitely be broken up.
                      Walk + Jog = wog.
                      I'm trying to Lose 5% at a time
                      I support Heifer International - join me by donating via my registry


                      Finished!

                        I do know that I can judge very well what conversational running would be without a heart monitor. All you need is a mouth to figure out that one Tongue
                        LOL - well, I've tried that - and that's what usually cues me to slow down - I try to talk to myself, find that it's difficult, and figure, oh dear, I'm running too fast again. As for the running too fast vs overtraining, well, I was trying to figure that out too -I'm still carrying excess weight, and with the increased mileage as I build towards a Feb HM, I noticed I started getting twinges above my knee(s) (not while running) and have had on and off again shin splint issues. I was getting worried about damaging myself. And then again, with the running too fast, I had a feeling something was going on since I really haven't seen any pace improvement in a looong time. And you're right - I'm a total noob to this whole running thing, so I'm still trying to figure things out while also attempting to not get frustrated in the process :P
                        Walk + Jog = wog.
                        I'm trying to Lose 5% at a time
                        I support Heifer International - join me by donating via my registry
                          I have been running at what is essentially the equivalent to my race pace. The "barely trotting" is my own perceived notion of my speed - I honestly feel that (esp on the uphills) if i was to slow down at all, I would be walking - as it is, i seriously doubt that I have both feet in the air at the same time...
                          Okay, I actually took the time to look at your log, and you're an interesting one, all right. You really are running every day right about at your race pace. Which obviously means you're either training too fast ... or capable of racing a lot faster. A couple suggestions: First, you might benefit from forgetting all about "perceived speed" and focus on perceived EFFORT. Second, if you really just can't slow down (more accurately, if you really can't decrease the effort), maybe you should insert walk breaks ... or take more of them. You might have to start, on your easy days or recovery days, just running a minute and walking a minute. Whatever it takes to find that sustainable effort. Depending on how much weight your carrying, that might have something to do with all of the above. Although at 135 pounds, unless you're 4 feet tall, you really aren't that heavy. Frankly I'm sorta baffled: you're running consistently, averaging almost 20 miles a week ... you ought to be showing improvement, even if you do nothing but slow and easy runs. Maybe you're just temporarily stuck in a plateau period. Or maybe you really are pushing too much (although it would seem that wouldn't be a problem running 3-4 days a week ...) But somehow you've got to find a way to make most of your runs easier in terms of effort, with maybe one or two harder "quality" days mixed in. In the end, I suspect it'll just take continued consistency. I think if you just stick with it, you're going to find some dramatic improvement happen sooner or later. Ah, there's a question: how long have you been running, anyway? If the answer is since September, then I'm repeating the above: have patience and keep running. It'll happen. Not everybody can be a freak of nature like Kooky up there.
                          E-mail: JakeKnight2002@aol.com
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                          Finished!

                            Well, I'm toting around 25-30 extra pounds right now - 135 is my goal, even better would be 130, but I somehow doubt I'll ever see that weight ever again, I got down to that weight once but didn't manage to keep it off...I'm at 157 right now. Regarding the slowing down/reducing effort - is it better to be doing that on my long run days or my short run days? or both? Still a noob, so I'm not doing (intentionally anyhow) any speed training. And yes, I've only been running since September. maybe August - I started with the C25k program and I don't think I started logging here until I was towards the end of the program.
                            Walk + Jog = wog.
                            I'm trying to Lose 5% at a time
                            I support Heifer International - join me by donating via my registry
                              I'm sure you have enough info. But here's my 2 cents. 1. The often overlooked effect of overtraining is not having enough energy for proper runs later in the week. 2. I got my Max. heart rate by averaging 2 formulas and my measured heartrate after running up a hill a couple of times. They were all pretty close to each other.
                              Will be weightlifting and running to get into the best shape I can before turning 40. Here are my progress pictures: http://tinyurl.com/584qwt


                              Now that was a bath...

                                I really think that if you aren't hating the pace that you are doing - if your runs are comfortable - even if you can't sing through them - then it's not a problem. If however you are finding that pace difficult to sustain and hating the effort then it's probably too much. Someone said on here when I first joined (can't remember who or when) - that you need to find the pace where you feel that you could run forever. It has taken me two months - but I now know that on a long run my pace should be about 9:50 and on a shorter one I can manage 9:20 with ease. At these paces my breathing is 'mostly' untroubled. It sometimes gets pushed on the hills. You say half of your route is uphill. I would expect that you would get some laboring of breathing during that stretche. You'd have to be superhuman not to! I breathe hard uphill. Today I tried to sing on the way up the hill as the Pussycat Dolls were inspiring me - that proved to me that my pace was not 'singable' and probably not conversational either at that point. But the hill would account for that IMHO. I ran it with a smile on my face and the words on my lips and enjoyed every darn moment though. I know that I can run harder now and the breathing feels more natural than it did in the begining. This running stuff can be so complicated when you start analyzing all the data. Factor in your hills though and I would say that a lot of your answer could be hidden there. Failing that JK has probably summed it up pretty well when he says 'have patience and keep running. It'll happen.'. Claire xxx
                              • jlynnbob "HTFU, Kookie's distal tibia"
                              • Where's my closet? I need to get back in it.
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