Forums >General Running>2nd quality day - Schedule advice
I'm 44 my main training goal is a spring Marathon. I generally average 50-60 miles a week, recently I have added 2 days of doubles, with the intent of getting over 60 for an average.I ran a fall Marathon MDI in 3:20, my target time was 3:11 and was on pace for that until mile 20. For those that don't know MDI is a tough hilly course, with an long uphill from mile 20-24.Currently I do one day on the track typically some combination of LT and I paced intervals. Unfortunately for my schedule that workout is on a Wed, because that is when the track is available to us.For my spring race I want to add a second quality day, the MP runs from the Hanson plan. I'm stuck on which day to do this. Ideally I'd do quality days on Tue and Thur, but I can't. I could do it Fri, but the Hanson plan has a medium long on Sat and Long Sun, so I'd have 3 consecutive moderately hard days, which I think is too much.Mon is out, need to recover from long runs. So now I'm wondering if I can do two back to back quality days either Tue/Wed or Wed/Thu? Who has done a schedule like that? Since Wed is probably the harder of the two, which does it make sense to do first? Does it make more sense to do my doubles on the hard days or easy days?Sun -LongMon -EasyTue -AM short PM Easy or MPWed -PM IntervalThu - Easy or MPFri -AM short PM EasySat -Med Long (10)
Feeling the growl again
So you are looking to do a day of intervals/LT, a day of MP running, a med-long run AND a long run all on 50-60 mpw? I think you're trying to do too much for the volume you are running.
Try this:
M - easy
T - AM short PM easy
W - intervals/LT work
R - easy
F - Med-long run INCLUDING MP work
Sa - AM short PM easy (or swap this day with Thursday depending how you feel that week)
Su - Long run
Don't do two workouts on back-to-back days; very bad idea.
This schedule prevents that and lumps the MP work into the Med-long run. There is absolutely no reason you need to separate them; IMHO, a med-long run with quality is a staple marathon workout, probably the biggest bang for you buck there is.
"If you want to be a bad a$s, then do what a bad a$s does. There's your pep talk for today. Go Run." -- Slo_Hand
I am spaniel - Crusher of Treadmills
Maybe you solve your Wed problem by moving your intervals off the track and onto the road? If it's possible where you live, you could just find a nice flatish piece of pavement and have at it, and then put that workout on whatever day you want.
I get that you write "track is available to us", which might mean you have a group that meets, so this might not work.
Come all you no-hopers, you jokers and roguesWe're on the road to nowhere, let's find out where it goes
So you are looking to do a day of intervals/LT, a day of MP running, a med-long run AND a long run all on 50-60 mpw? I think you're trying to do too much for the volume you are running. Try this: M - easy T - AM short PM easy W - intervals/LT work R - easy F - Med-long run INCLUDING MP work Sa - AM short PM easy (or swap this day with Thursday depending how you feel that week) Su - Long run Don't do two workouts on back-to-back days; very bad idea. This schedule prevents that and lumps the MP work into the Med-long run. There is absolutely no reason you need to separate them; IMHO, a med-long run with quality is a staple marathon workout, probably the biggest bang for you buck there is.
I did mention I want my weekly mileage to be over 60.
I like the idea of making the Med-Long the MP day, I think this schedule could work.
I'm not as convinced as you that two consecutive quality days is bad. Jack Daniels advocates this in some cases, but he does suggest taking two easy days afterward. In general I prefer hard/easy also.
http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=16078&PageNum=4
Thanks for the input.
You might try looking up the "two big workouts/week" model discussed by Tinman on TheRunZone.com -- IT's also the model in the Daniels' book.
You're about my age (I'm 47) and I've found for us aging guys that don't recover as quickly as the whipper snappers, two big workouts/week, with the other days easy running, works quite well and provides steady improvement. My typical week might be something like:
Monday - 7 to 8 easy
Tuesday (key day) - 12 to 14 miles, either one or two runs, but one of them is a quality session.
Wednesday - 7 to 8 easy
Thursday - 12 to 14 in two runs (perhaps some strides thrown in there)
Friday - 7 to 8 easy
Saturday (key day) - am long run 18 to 21 miles w/ quality, pm short easy recovery run
Sunday - 5 to 6 easy.
If I try to do 3 quality days/week (speed, tempo, long), it's too much.
I'm not as convinced as you that two consecutive quality days is bad. Jack Daniels advocates this in some cases, but he does suggest taking two easy days afterward. In general I prefer hard/easy also. http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=16078&PageNum=4
I'm not saying it's never useful, but applying it successfully requires one to know one's self very well to avoid over-training or burnout. Typically those asking questions on running forums cannot be assumed to meet this requirement so I tread carefully in making recommendations. Certainly, for just about anyone, it's not something you build into what is intended to be a standard weekly schedule. It's a special-purpose tactic.
I saw that you want your mileage over 60, but even on 60ish IMHO 2 quality days plus your long run is plenty of emphasis on quality. Get that in consistently and you'll do very well for yourself.
You might try looking up the "two big workouts/week" model discussed by Tinman on TheRunZone.com -- IT's also the model in the Daniels' book. You're about my age (I'm 47) and I've found for us aging guys that don't recover as quickly as the whipper snappers, two big workouts/week, with the other days easy running, works quite well and provides steady improvement. My typical week might be something like: Monday - 7 to 8 easy Tuesday (key day) - 12 to 14 miles, either one or two runs, but one of them is a quality session. Wednesday - 7 to 8 easy Thursday - 12 to 14 in two runs (perhaps some strides thrown in there) Friday - 7 to 8 easy Saturday (key day) - am long run 18 to 21 miles w/ quality, pm short easy recovery run Sunday - 5 to 6 easy. If I try to do 3 quality days/week (speed, tempo, long), it's too much.
The interesting part of your schedule is you do your doubles on your quality days. I've been doing mine on my easy days.
I've been doing a long and interval session for a long while, and in the never ending quest to improve wanted to add a moderate day of 6-10 at Marathon Pace. I'm sort of trying to follow the Hanson plan, by adding the MP runs, something I've never had as part of my schedule. The other part of Hanson that I'm intrigued by is the Med-Long on Sat (10) followed by long Sun (16).
This all looks great when you lay it out with speed on Tue.
Sun-Long
Mon-Easy
Tue-Speed/Strength
Wed-off/easy
Thu-MP
Fri-Easy
Sat-MedLong
The fact I'm stuck with Wed, messes this up. I think Spaniel has the best idea of lumping MP/Med-long together. The only downside is I lose the cumulative fatigue effect I'd get by doing Med-Long/Long back to back.
Oh btw: I just found out I got a Boston Marathon number through my running club! My qualifier this fall was too late for 2012.
Why is it sideways?
What's your strength as a runner? What's your weakness? What specific capacities are you trying to improve during this cycle? What went wrong last cycle? What went well?
Without some answers into these sorts of questions, it's sorta impossible to give advice.
The interesting part of your schedule is you do your doubles on your quality days. I've been doing mine on my easy days. I've been doing a long and interval session for a long while, and in the never ending quest to improve wanted to add a moderate day of 6-10 at Marathon Pace. I'm sort of trying to follow the Hanson plan, by adding the MP runs, something I've never had as part of my schedule. The other part of Hanson that I'm intrigued by is the Med-Long on Sat (10) followed by long Sun (16). This all looks great when you lay it out with speed on Tue. Sun-Long Mon-Easy Tue-Speed/Strength Wed-off/easy Thu-MP Fri-Easy Sat-MedLong The fact I'm stuck with Wed, messes this up. I think Spaniel has the best idea of lumping MP/Med-long together. The only downside is I lose the cumulative fatigue effect I'd get by doing Med-Long/Long back to back. Oh btw: I just found out I got a Boston Marathon number through my running club! My qualifier this fall was too late for 2012.
I didn't really focus in on where you had your doubles, but doing them on qualities days is quite the norm. I'd usually do an easy run...very easy...the morning of an interval day, and found I felt looser and livelier in the evening for the main workout. Recovery days are just that....use them to stack up miles and it can be counter-productive.
On the cumulative fatigue thing, that's fine to do a couple times per cycle. It serves a purpose. Just don't do every week like that or it will lead to trouble.
What's your strength as a runner? What's your weakness? What specific capacities are you trying to improve during this cycle? What went wrong last cycle? What went well? Without some answers into these sorts of questions, it's sorta impossible to give advice.
Good questions. I have the easiest time with LT style runs, and think that is probably where I'm at my best. I've recently made a pretty big improvement dropping my 10 mile race pace from 6:50 in August to 6:30 a few weeks ago. I attribute this to a long period of consistent training.
Marathons have never been my best race, of the 4 I've done 2 were a complete disaster, 2 I ran to about my fitness or a bit slower.
My race at MDI sort of imploded at Mile 20, I was on pace for 3:11 and lost 90 sec a mile in the last 6. I've always done speed work of various sorts at between mile and 10 mile race pace. R/I/LT. If you were to run my other races 10 miler, 25k etc through McMillan calculator it suggested that 3:10 was a reasonable pace, so 3:20 is significantly slower.
My two changes for the spring race are to increase my average mileage to 60-70, probably peaking about 70-75. And to add a MP paced run to my week, since it seems that my endurance past 20 miles is the biggest issue.
Without going in detailed schedule, I think you are suffering from a very typical "there-are-so-much-information;-let's-get-them-all-mixed-up-and-see-what-comes-out-of-it" syndrome.
Hanson may advocate a medium long run followed by a long run; do they advocate hard/hard pattern as well? When we talk about hard/hard, are we talking about quality/quality or quality/quantity or quantity/quantity? Or are they all mixed up? So Daniel MAY advocate hard/hard pattern but, without reading too closely, I saw a line that reads "during the race weeks". Are you racing right now? Or are you mixing all these up to come up with your own justrification?
Also, what is your goal? To run well in the marathon or to hit 60 miles a week? If both and if you believe it's reasonable to do both for you. then there shouldn't be any question. If not both, you need to pick one that you want more. Sometimes, they don't go hand-in-hand. If your goal is purely to hit 60MPW, do whatever it takes to do; throw away quality workout. If do well in the upcoming marathon is youru goal, forget about hitting 60--why bother? If running a 3:10 marathon requires 20MPW (I'm not saying it would do you better) FOR YOU, so be it; why squeeze 60?
Focus, think, and then decide what to do.
Good questions. I have the easiest time with LT style runs, and think that is probably where I'm at my best. I've recently made a pretty big improvement dropping my 10 mile race pace from 6:50 in August to 6:30 a few weeks ago. I attribute this to a long period of consistent training. Marathons have never been my best race, of the 4 I've done 2 were a complete disaster, 2 I ran to about my fitness or a bit slower. My race at MDI sort of imploded at Mile 20, I was on pace for 3:11 and lost 90 sec a mile in the last 6. I've always done speed work of various sorts at between mile and 10 mile race pace. R/I/LT. If you were to run my other races 10 miler, 25k etc through McMillan calculator it suggested that 3:10 was a reasonable pace, so 3:20 is significantly slower. My two changes for the spring race are to increase my average mileage to 60-70, probably peaking about 70-75. And to add a MP paced run to my week, since it seems that my endurance past 20 miles is the biggest issue.
First off, read the above post by Nobby--good general advice, and I agree with it.
Okay, it seems like that you are basing your approach to this next cycle based on a couple of deductions you drew from your race performance. These deductions may or may not be warranted. A couple of things to consider:
1) Dying in the last six miles of a marathon may mean that you need to run more miles or do more marathon pace work, but it may not. If you have a bad marathon performance, it will ALWAYS show up in the last miles. But basically the problem you are facing is how to extend your fitness at the lower distances to the marathon distance. This may mean running more weekly mileage, or it may mean targeting specific workouts that extend your capacity to hold a certain pace. (Maybe it will mean building your general fitness through weekly mileage for a number of weeks, then cutting back to your comfort zone for more specific workouts.)
2) If you enjoy the LT (I'd just say tempo) runs and having been working on them a lot lately, you might consider switching the stimulus a bit. Seems like good tempo runners can get in a steady state rhythm and "lock in" to a pace. This might actually have caused your problem in the marathon, as you "locked in" to a good pace that was a little too quick. When you came "unlocked" you fell apart completely. One way to work on this would be through multipace workouts that keep you from getting too much into any rhythm.
These are just a couple of things to think about--there could be a lot more. The temptation after a cycle of training is to think the next step is "more"--you want to add miles and add a workout. But maybe it is better to say "what can I do different?" You've got a ton of time, and I think it would be a mistake to lock into a schedule now and just repeat it until your spring marathon. Maybe break the next 4 months into 4 different "schedules"--each designed to build off of each other in a concrete way. Something like Jan 60-65 mpw (mileage build), Feb 50mpw but focused on 5k pace, Mar 60-65 mpw, concentrate on HM pace and extending the long run, then April 50mpw, MP.
All of this is roundabout and probably more confusing than helpful, but the point is that you shouldn't be deciding on ONE schedule, but on how to approach your strength and weaknesses as a runner over a period of 4 months.