Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
DW: Good perspective on the PED issue. I saw your posts on LRC on the topic and they were the most intelligent and reasonable in the thread. I guess I haven't thought much about it at the non-elite level, but would not be surprised if it is happening there as well. I get depressed when I think that potentially all of what happened at the elite level in the 90's could have been doped. Especially if my heroes Geb and Tergat were, but I personally really doubt it for them. They had such long careers, from being world class juniors to world class masters (at least in Geb's case), and I don't think that it would be possible to drug cheat for 20+ years and not get caught, or at least have rumors circulating, but for those two guys nothing ever surfaced. Daniel Komen, on the other hand, I could see as suspicious, since he was just a 2 year flash in the pan...
Man! We keep posting at the same time! I hear you on the depressing aspect to thinking about athletes you loved back in the day possibly having cheated. It's certainly a crappy thing that a few (or maybe quite a few?) athletes did to ruin many a sports and the connection to its fans.
Upcoming races: Boston
We are on the same schedule for posting it seems! It is a sad situation now for elite T&F and road racing, that every fast performance at every distance is immediately suspect, whether for good reason or not. I love to follow the sport and it definitely takes something away when that suspicion is omnipresent. I remember when Asbel Kiprop ran a 3:26.xx 1500m a few years ago, how exciting it was. Now he's been exposed as a cheat, and it's just depressing.
2:52:16 (2018)
Mother of Cats
Re Doping: It never really occurred to me that non-elites that appear to be racing totally for fun are out there cheating the system (I'm assuming they're not actually making a living off of these races???). While I certainly don't agree with it, I can understand how some of the professionals end up cheating, for example, if they're coming from absolute poverty and see it as a way to provide for their family (and to be absolutely clear, it's not like I would ever think that's ok, it's just I can see how someone would end up deciding to go down that road). But a guy out there doing this for fun? That's just bizarre.
I don't see it as surprising at all. I mean...look at all of us. We say we're doing this for fun, and yet we wake up at crazy hours, buy shoes with plates in them, buy powders and gels and drinks, travel crazy distances, spend hours foam rolling/stretching/cross-training on top of running. Not to mention all the time spent on social media.... Compared to all of that, picking up a script for HGH is easy.
You paint a picture of someone facing a tough choice, and choosing to do something unethical in order to provide for their families, and then note that such is not the case for a weekend warrior. But...I honestly believe that the large majority of those taking illegal stuff have managed to convince themselves that they're not doing anything wrong, and so they don't see it as an unethical choice.
Pretty much all of my adult white collar career has related in someway to people doing bad things, be it white collar criminal defense work, internal investigations, compliance work, or workplace monitoring. And I've learned that the universe of people who do bad things is much much larger than the universe of people who know/believe that they are doing something wrong. People do not tend to think of themselves as "bad"; the human potential for rationalization is near-infinite.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Mmmm Bop
Kram - Great race for where you're at currently. I somehow missed that this weekend on Strava, so I'm glad you put it up here. Quote from Nimmals on 6/3/2019 at 11:26 AM: I'm hoping this comment was thrown out there to try to bring back Cal, and get Mikkey all riled up again like what happened at the end of last year when Cal told Jmac "yeah, 2:45 is a pretty good time, but I would've destroyed it if I was running at your age instead of my age now being nearly dead with how old I am." Except that Mikkey didn't really go all in.
Kram - Great race for where you're at currently. I somehow missed that this weekend on Strava, so I'm glad you put it up here.
Quote from Nimmals on 6/3/2019 at 11:26 AM:
I'm hoping this comment was thrown out there to try to bring back Cal, and get Mikkey all riled up again like what happened at the end of last year when Cal told Jmac "yeah, 2:45 is a pretty good time, but I would've destroyed it if I was running at your age instead of my age now being nearly dead with how old I am." Except that Mikkey didn't really go all in.
LOL I had forgotten about that discussion! Cal is doing old man Ultras now....luckily I don’t enjoy trail running and would never be tempted to join him down that route. 😁
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
I don't see it as surprising at all. I mean...look at all of us. We say we're doing this for fun, and yet we wake up at crazy hours, buy shoes with plates in them, buy powders and gels and drinks, travel crazy distances, spend hours foam rolling/stretching/cross-training on top of running. Not to mention all the time spent on social media.... Compared to all of that, picking up a script for HGH is easy. You paint a picture of someone facing a tough choice, and choosing to do something unethical in order to provide for their families, and then note that such is not the case for a weekend warrior. But...I honestly believe that the large majority of those taking illegal stuff have managed to convince themselves that they're not doing anything wrong, and so they don't see it as an unethical choice. Pretty much all of my adult white collar career has related in someway to people doing bad things, be it white collar criminal defense work, internal investigations, compliance work, or workplace monitoring. And I've learned that the universe of people who do bad things is much much larger than the universe of people who know/believe that they are doing something wrong. People do not tend to think of themselves as "bad"; the human potential for rationalization is near-infinite.
It appears we're focused on the same sector of the law (I'm a lawyer who practices primarily white collar criminal defense). And I agree 100% with the above highlighted section and often tell people the same thing. In my example, I wasn't necessarily trying to paint a picture of a hard choice. My point was when a family is living on $5,000 per year and an athlete in that family can make an unethical/illegal decision that has a good potential to lead to a single $50,000 pay day by winning a race, many people convince themselves that they are doing "good" for their family by taking X. Not taking X would be wrong and letting their family down. That example is on the extreme, but I assume that money is still a big motivator in many other athletes that end up cheating, even if they're from a better background. And they still find ways to convince themselves that they're making the right decision.
This is no different than a lot of cases I see--most often people making terrible decisions when they've somehow gotten themselves in to money problems. And they always convince themselves it's okay to make the wrong decision.
So you take out the money part, and it is bizarre to me to think that it's still prevalent. I guess I shouldn't really be surprised by it though. Like you say, people do always seem to find a way to rationalize stupid stuff (including how I rationalized spending $250 on a pair of shoes--stupid stuff).
I think it's not about money, but about ego. For example, I like winning money at races, but the truth is that I really don't need the money at all, and it really makes no financial difference to me if I get it. And really makes very little difference if I'm comped. But I like winning money, and I like being comped. It's purely an ego thing.
I remember having this discussion with a British friend who was an elite runner. The observation was that lower level doping was much more of a problem in the US than in the UK. The reason? In the US, there was an expectation and pressure to be successful at everything - i.e. people who are successful in their careers also want to present as successful in their sport - "I can do it all." By contrast, in the UK, it was more socially acceptable to be successful in one aspect of one's life, and comically underperform in another area.
[Mikkey and others - interested in your perspectives here]
I also want to note that I think we don't always realize how socially acceptable mild dishonesty is. Think how many professional headshots are photo shopped; how many Instagram pictures are filtered. Think about those corporate acrylic awards that one can "win" by purchasing 50 copies of a magazine - I regularly get offers to be included in a list of "top 10 women in ediscovery" or "x professional association board of regents" or something similar in exchange for a subscription or donation of some sort.
When viewed in the light of our modern culture, going to an anti-aging clinic so one can perform better in both the bedroom and in sport doesn't seem so strange or wrong. It's just one more thing you do to make sure you're always viewed in the best light.
Kram: my secret sauce both times was to get the fuck in there and tear the shit up. The 1st time (2012) my then coach got in there with a torture device. This 2nd time (2018-2019) I would stand and put nearly all my weight on a lacrosse ball and worked it at the end of the day. It bordered on the good kind of pain vs the not so much. Scar tissue is evil stuff! The tight calf could be a result or cause. Good signs at your half!
Swim: ??
Thanks JT
It was 85 deg at the track at 9 am this morning and someone was in black tights and black shirt. WTF. . . talk about people and bizarre behavior!
Sounds like Cal is finally at peace . . .
Stotan Disciple
Andres and JT I was a huge fan of the Dibabas. I thought they were clean, I thought she would smash her sisters 5k outdoor record, came close but after her coach got nabbed by the cops in Spain there is an excerpt below. Aden has been linked to so many dirty athletes I guess he is an example of a dirty coach like Ma Jauren remember Wang Junxia admitted to doping she broke two world records in the same weekend no recovery set records that were almost unattainable. she admitted Zhong the whole squad would show up for doping and doping evasion sessions. I'm calling out Ethiopia they're cheaters too many athletes get away with murder as their atheletic federations have no drug testing programs.
Aden is Ma Jauren all over again now Genezebe is under scrutiny she has become average. Where in the world is Almaz Ayana what became of her a flash in the pants too. I'm sorry but Ethiopia cheats thats why I'm backing Laura Muir. I know Obiri is dirty and those Kenyan steeplers a freaking 1:20 improvement get out of here dirty sorry. I think at elite level you have to be dirty to play the game. Russia setting all those records in 2000 only to find like East Germany, Later Ma Jauren China it was all state sponsored doping.
I know I'm wrong for calling out people who havent been caught but what I've seen in the past is doing is a hive activity the whole training team does it and its usually supervised from top down. I am a huge fan of cycling and I know Chris Froome is dirty. I watch that story on the russian scientist and he was like if you think it you're 90% right. Theyre some clean cyclist but very few. The cheating doesnt go away it gets more high of an art. Of course I soundf like Lets run but as Andres said I pour my heart into idols only to be let down. so now im suspicious.
How the hell does one athlete need 8 doctors? And I'm speaking about Galen and Jordan. 8 doctors I don't even have one, WTF??
Why does anyone one need that many doctors?
According to AP: “Police confirmed Aden and his trainer [an unnamed Moroccan] were under arrest on charges of administering and distributing doping substances and endangering public health. After questioning by law enforcement, both detainees should face prosecution within 72 hours.”
The article indicates officials from the International Association of Athletics Federations also detained and tested 30 of the athletes who were staying at the hotel. Providing and distributing drugs being a crime in Spain, police there usually target the network that enables doping, leaving the IAAF to deal with individual athletes. It appears police and track officials worked jointly on this raid.
In 2015, two of Aden’s athletes, Laila Traby of France and Hamza Driouch of Qatar, were suspended for doping violations.
By far, the most provocative player in this scene is Ethiopian Genzebe Dibaba, the odds-on favorite to win gold in the women’s 1500 meters in Rio. At this point, the records she’s routinely trampling—at 1500 meters, 3000, and 5000— are her own. She currently holds the outdoor 1500 world record, and the indoor 1500, mile, 3000, and 5000 meter world records.
In July 2015 Dibaba, the youngest of three world champion sisters, not only bested her own personal record at 1500 meters by an astronomical four seconds (at that level, improvements usually come in tenths or hundredths of a second), but she also broke a 22-year-old world record set by Chinese runner Qu Yunxia that was widely seen as both dirty and unattainable, about which I wrote at the time:
For one thing, Yunxia’s turtle soup-and-fungus-assisted record from 1993 has been in the same impossible category as Paula Radcliffe’s 2:15 marathon—so far out that, to the benefit of the sport, women have been racing each other for the win or for a personal best rather than even considering a world record. Omitting Dibaba’s 3:54 and 3:50 performances—both run in the last month—the top thirteen 1500 performances of all time were posted by Ma’s Army, the crop of Chinese women raised by now-discredited coach Ma Junren in 1993 and 1997, and a Russian and a Romanian in the 1980s.
So with her 3:50.07, Dibaba deftly hopped over more than 30 years of running and 12 hiiiiiiiiighly suspicious performances from programs that either were busted for doping or operated prior to drug testing.
In 2010, Dibaba posted a very good but not great 4:06.10 in the 1500, and improved by .20 of a second in 2011. Then in 2012, she went ballistic, shaving more than eight seconds from her time to post a world class 3:57.77. She bettered that slightly in 2013, but ended 2014 with only a 4:01.00, set in August of that year. In February of 2015, the indoor season, she focused on 3000 and 5000 meters, and came outdoors swinging in the 1500, popping a 3:54 1500 in June (good for tenth best all-time), and a month later, the unbelievable, never-in-this-lifetime 3:50.07.
I was reading about Lokken the guy was my height and weighed 40lbs less than I do. he said he was 125 I think I'd look sickly at 125. I may try to get down to 145 I mean I was 135 in college. I'd love to race London ~ 140lbs turn the tables on those guys I outweigh by 30-40lbs. I'm currently 165 but I was 155 at CIM.
Thinking should be done first, before training begins.
I know at least one of those doctor is for his "hypothyroidism"
Edit: Forgot Jordan has "hypothyroidism" as well
How the hell does one athlete need 8 doctors? And I'm speaking about Galen and Jordan. 8 doctors I don't even have one, WTF?? Why does anyone one need that many doctors?
3K: 8:29.12 (2017) 5K: 14:56.59 (2016) 8K: 25:27 (2016) 15K: 53:46 (2022) HM: 75:41 (2022) FM: 2:43:17 (2022)
Nimmals: I agree on Genzebe... after that 3:50 WR there has been nothing from her. It's a prime example of what was said earlier here... an out-of-nowhere performance like that, not consistent with the athlete's natural progression of ability. But please don't tell me Haile G. is dirty; that would break my heart.
It's pretty interesting how once athletes join the NOP they develop severe allergies and need an inhaler. Not to mention the obligatory thyroid problems...
I vaguely recall the Ma Junren situation. Weren't all those WRs set within a few weeks, some at the same meet, in China, and there was no video of them? Everyone seemed to know they were not legit but somehow they stayed on the books for 20-25 years.
I think it's not about money, but about ego. For example, I like winning money at races, but the truth is that I really don't need the money at all, and it really makes no financial difference to me if I get it. And really makes very little difference if I'm comped. But I like winning money, and I like being comped. It's purely an ego thing. I remember having this discussion with a British friend who was an elite runner. The observation was that lower level doping was much more of a problem in the US than in the UK. The reason? In the US, there was an expectation and pressure to be successful at everything - i.e. people who are successful in their careers also want to present as successful in their sport - "I can do it all." By contrast, in the UK, it was more socially acceptable to be successful in one aspect of one's life, and comically underperform in another area. [Mikkey and others - interested in your perspectives here]
Well the Brits always love a plucky loser! I’ve got no idea if it’s a lesser problem in the UK as I’m outside of the loop and don’t really hang out socially with any fast runners. Doping has never been discussed by any runners that I’ve chatted to over the years. Your posts have been interesting and eye opening as I had the same views as Andres. I’m only ever focused on my personal time goals and if I happen to place well in a race or win my AG then it’s because nobody fast showed up!
You mentioned in a previous post that we all do this for *fun* but that’s exactly why I do do it. I love the buzz of a successful 3 month training cycle and how it makes me feel and have never seen it as some sort of sacrifice as it doesn’t really take up that much of my time anyway.
The expense - The Vaporflys are expensive, but they are by far the best running shoes AND legal. In my younger non running days I’d blow that amount of money on a weekend bender with my mates. Money spent on races etc....London is very cheap for me each year as it’s less than £40 registration fee and no accommodation costs. NYC was my most expensive race, but I always wanted to visit there anyway, so running the marathon made the trip even better! Am I trying too hard to justify my spending? 😁
P.S. On a lighter note, my Moose Mug has arrived in the UK and will hopefully be with me on Saturday!
Nimmals: I agree on Genzebe... after that 3:50 WR there has been nothing from her. It's a prime example of what was said earlier here... an out-of-nowhere performance like that, not consistent with the athlete's natural progression of ability. But please don't tell me Haile G. is dirty; that would break my heart. It's pretty interesting how once athletes join the NOP they develop severe allergies and need an inhaler. Not to mention the obligatory thyroid problems... I vaguely recall the Ma Junren situation. Weren't all those WRs set within a few weeks, some at the same meet, in China, and there was no video of them? Everyone seemed to know they were not legit but somehow they stayed on the books for 20-25 years.
Those records should never have made the books. a few years ago I wrote a Facebook post saying they should do a reset on all Iron Curtain world records. China admitted to doping, yet records still hung around. Don't forget East Germany Marita Koch still has the impossible 400m while Kratch still holds 800m record. I mean Caster couldn't even come close. That's how impossible those records were. I think in our era Sydney can get close to the 400M but the 800M will never be broken.
Her 800-metre world record is the longest standing track record in men or women's athletics, and was described by 1996 Olympic champion Svetlana Masterkova as ".. very fast. It's impossible for women to run so fast. It will last for 100 years."
Speaking of Human Growth Hormones (anabolic steroids in her days)
Very nice...curly hair.
Yikes...I wish you hadn't posted that pic
But yeah, that record is about as doped as they get
Yikes...I wish you hadn't posted that pic But yeah, that record is about as doped as they get
I can take it down but it proves an obvious side effect of steroids.
Talking about throwing hay bales into lofts made her strong.