Forums >Racing>2018 3:20 (and beyond)
Cobra Commander Keen
DWave, Max, Ace - Thanks for the verification! It's nice to have people with much more experience validate these things. Max, I hadn't seen that bit about pace changes at grade. That does seem about right, based on some quick gorilla math and what I've seen while running these hills.
Brew - I would describe the course as having rolling hills, but they are spread out more and in general not quite as aggressive as the hills around my house.
At times babies do tend to "mysteriously" wake up when grandparents are around. Which kind of misses the awesome that is just lounging around with a sleeping baby resting on you. Adventures in volunteering! I haven't done this yet, but plan to. There are some ultras near Tulsa in the fall I'd like to volunteer or pace at, plus a Go Girl Run 1/2 in March I'd like to volunteer for. This last one isn't entirely selfless as I want to get DD1 out there to see all the ladies running and hopefully spark some more interest in her running.
Random: As of today I'm (very slightly) above 5,000 lifetime miles (~3 years running). I know this isn't much compared to most here, but it seems odd looking at it as I have plans to increase that by about half by the end of the year.
5k: 17:58 11/22 │ 10k: 37:55 9/21 │ HM: 1:23:22 4/22 │ M: 2:56:05 12/22
Upcoming Races:
OKC Memorial 5k - April 27
Bun Run 5k - May 4
Pesto ~ Nice HM! Congrats.
DkW ~ No marathons for me this years
OMR - sad to see that you've had to shut it down. Wasn't your PT saying that you might be able to make your goal race? What changed?
The initial "I think you can be ready in two weeks" conversation happened before he had the chance to work with me. At this point, I think the abductors and core need to be strengthened so that the knee no longer caves in when I run, to take pressure off of the joint. That's probably going to take a while. I found a video of me crossing the finish line at Grandmas in 2014, and I don't really see that happening (the knee cave), even after 26.2 miles. Interesting that it is happening now.
Brew: Ha, so he's used to it, then (inexperienced crew)? Perhaps max should become a "crew trainer" in addition to a running coach? He could run ultra-marathons with inexperienced crew, charging them for the experience of crewing him, and then tell them everything they did wrong so they get it right the next time.
Keen: Nice first week. What is your planned peak mileage?
oregon: In max's world, a long race is something beyond 100 miles. He once did 3 x 100M repeats in prep for a 200M race. So yeah...100K is like sprints for him.
max: Congrats on the being famous.
Re doping: I hope Sven Kramer is clean.
Mother of Cats
Just out of curiousity, do you think other sports are "clean"? Do you follow other sports? Sky is all about the grey areas and pushing boundaries, but so are many other teams in many other athletic events. One example is Nike Oregon Project. Froome has refused TUE's during competition other times though. What I really don't understand are people who cheat/push boundaries, sometimes at the expense of their health, when no money or even fame are on the line. Like Cat 2 masters racers and people racing on zwift. Just, why?
Just out of curiousity, do you think other sports are "clean"? Do you follow other sports?
Sky is all about the grey areas and pushing boundaries, but so are many other teams in many other athletic events. One example is Nike Oregon Project. Froome has refused TUE's during competition other times though.
What I really don't understand are people who cheat/push boundaries, sometimes at the expense of their health, when no money or even fame are on the line. Like Cat 2 masters racers and people racing on zwift. Just, why?
I follow equestrian sports - believe me, they are as dirty as cycling at the national level. At the international level, I believe that they are mostly clean. (and yes, both riders and horses dope.)
Non-elites like us cheat for the same reason that we're out there running 20 milers in the rain and snow., or getting up at 4:30 am to fit the miles in. Or spending $250 on running shoes. I don't find this hard to understand. We're all runners, driven to PR and place in our age groups and succeed. And that makes us willing to expend a lot of money and effort and risk to achieve our goals.
"Cheating" is also a sliding scale, and can be very easy to rationalize. I remember one guy who was busted for EPO said his reasoning was that he was just taking EPO to get back to where he was before he was injured. And I'm sure that those who use anti-aging meds like HGH or testosterone rationalize it as for their health, not for performance.
It's also worth noting that PEDs don't substitute for hard work, they enable it. You can do much more work on PEDs because you can absorb and recover from it. So, those who are doping are assuredly working very very hard, and that makes it easy to rationalize: "since I'm working so hard, my successes are justified, and this isn't cheating"
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Will Run for Donuts!
Brew - On behalf of all runners, thanks for volunteering. Having done it a few times myself, I have a new appreciation for the logistical challenge of putting on races. Without volunteers like you, it simply wouldn't be possible for the us all to race, so thanks!
Re doping and other sports - I'm under no illusions that other sports are "clean" or cleaner than cycling, but then I don't really follow other sports all that much, with the exception of soccer. How much doping there is in soccer, I have no idea. There may be some, but it's probably not as big an issue as in pure endurance sports, because it's also a skill sport (with a fair bit of running too), and doping isn't going to suddenly give a player better technical skills. Doping in soccer may be bigger than I realize; I just have no idea of the scope. I also casually follow the marathon majors, and I'm sure some of them are doping, but again, I have no idea how big the problem is. I hope Meb was clean - he seemed like a really decent guy and I rooted for him.
In cycling, I've heard several elites say they doped just to level the playing field, since they knew/suspected almost all their competitors were doping, too. I don't accept that as an excuse, but I understand it. Given how prevalent doping was/probably still is in cycling, I doubt any "clean" racer has a snowball's chance of actually winning anything. Sad, but that's the way it seems to be.
As for cheating/doping by non-elites, I just don't understand that at all. Like Darkwave said, I get having that personality type that seeks challenges/sets goals (funny that so many of us are lawyers, which seems to me to be more than a coincidence), but a huge part of the exhilaration of achieving a goal is actually having achieved the goal, not having found some sort of clever cheat/short-cut. I'm pretty proud of my PRs (not that they're anything noteworthy) specifically because I know they're legit and I earned them. I certainly wouldn't feel the same way about those races if I'd doped or cut the course or something - I know I'd only be short-changing myself. How can the experience be rewarding otherwise? Even if I convinced others with my fraud, I'd know it was a lie. Maybe some people are just that desperate to post a brag post on Facebook or something - I don't know.
CDR K ~ Congrats on the 5K lifetime miles.
Took a detour on my run today b/c I didn't want to loop around soccer fields like I usually do b/c I was tired of running w/ wet shoes. When I got back in read in WaPo that it's rained 7 of 12 days and we've had 4 inches of rain so far this month; in the last 8 days we've gotten 70% of the area's rainfall for the last 90 days. I guess I wasn't imagining things!
Much of my career has been related to people doing bad things. And I've learned that the population of humanity that does bad things or makes bad choices is much much larger than the population that thinks they are doing bad things or making bad choices.
I don't think people who dope think of it as a short cut or as cheating. The human capacity to rationalize away their own choices, to do bad things while believing that their actions are appropriate, is near infinite. (To quote Marion Barry: "the bitch set me up"). I really do believe that most people who dope truly believe that they've earned their successes.
FB - I registered back in April, with the early bird price. Apparently, once they reach the 50,000+ registrations limit, they close. I am not sure how long you have to decide, but I found the following: https://www.endurancebusiness.com/2015/industry-news/57000-registrations-in-record-time-for-schneider-electric-marathon-de-paris-2016/. For 2016, it sold out in October 2015, but that was a first it seems. If you decide to run it, let me know and we can meet up!
Pesto -- nice idea! I just checked and Paris (April 8th) is still open for registration. Is that right? Does anyone have experience with this? Do you know typically when the race fills up, and how long I have to decide? Having kids who decide what they (and therefore we) want to do for school breaks at the last minute can be challenging at times.
Pesto -- nice idea! I just checked and Paris (April 8th) is still open for registration. Is that right? Does anyone have experience with this? Do you know typically when the race fills up, and how long I have to decide?
Having kids who decide what they (and therefore we) want to do for school breaks at the last minute can be challenging at times.
ace - this was probably my peak week in terms of mileage. I am supposed to have another week at around 60 (right before taper), and the rest stay between 50-60 mpw. However, my mom is here until Friday and after that we have no more help at home until the end of March, so I'm not so optimistic that I'll be able to run what my plan says. Great week btw!
DkW - yikes, 2:55 sounds scary! I'll see how the tune-up HM goes, but I will definitely not be aiming higher (faster) than 2:59
5K - 18:03 (5.18) | 10K - 37:58 (2.18) | HM - 1:20:45 (9.18) | FM: 2:57:59 (10.18)
Look no further than Wall Street for a different version of the same story. Anybody watch Steve Carell's "everybody cheats" speech at the end of The Big Short? It's great, and very sad.
And it's too bad, as a spectator, doping ruins those sports for me.
m: 2:55:04 | 10k: 37:14 | 50mile: 9:35
Doping & Elites: I've taken everything with a grain of salt since The Truth About Lance and the post-strike MLB PEDs came to light. I'd convinced myself that Armstrong was different - uniquely gifted and uniquely motivated to train and not cheat. And the comprehensive, consistent detail of his lies, and the number of potential witnesses (he suppressed), was sufficient to overcome my professional skepticism about claims of innocence. MLB PEDs destroyed the arguments that some kinds of players were above suspicion because the dope wouldn't help any of them. Nope. Both pitchers and batters did it - and all kinds of batters, the big sluggers and the hit-for-average and steal types too. I admire lots of endurance athletes, but it's for the hard work and suffering that we can see.
Doping & Nonelites: I just don't see the allure, at least for those of us who are really only racing ourselves. A doctor wrote me an Rx for androgel a few years back, based entirely on a blood test result. I didn't fill it, got a second opinion and a retest that showed no medical need. Not sure what I'd have done if the second opinion had concurred. There's an increased cancer risk. And the risk that I'd quit running because I'd no longer be able to value PRs. Whether we know it or not, I'm sure we've all crossed finish lines alongside people on androgel (prescribed or not) or something even more exotic. Maybe if I actually won races I'd feel differently.
Here's my 100% natural* training from last week. (* = aided artificially by gatorade, cliff shot blocks, $125 shoes, electric light, synthetic fabric).
Weekly SummaryMonday, Feb 05, 2018 thru Sunday, Feb 11, 2018
Problem Child
keen If the course isn't as hilly as your training runs, and after thinking of my own training, "perceived effort" is a better way to train. I hate hills even if they're rolling and CIM has about 8 miles of rilling hills...or more. I just remembered I forgot about the pancake recipe. I'll look into it. As for volunteering, this group offers you $10/hr race credit so it's pretty enticing. They also give out better race swag (not a tech shirt every time) and their age group medals are cool (usually) and functional. This week it was coffee mugs. Previously it's been cow bells. Good luck with DD entering running. Email the race organization and ask if they need volunteers.
Jones yeah I've really only volunteered twice for races but growing up doing sports mostly by volunteers, regardless of being paid, you see just how much abuse people take from the public and begin to understand how major events will just end because the person who has done the work for 10 years wants to take a year off and no one wants to take their spot because it's actually work...like 20 hours a week work.
cheating/doping FWAK cheaters. If you're a paid athlete you should know what you're putting into your body. As a professional athlete you should have a coach who knows the rules about substance abuse and wouldn't set you up to be disqualified and banned from a sport. As a semi-pro/recreational athlete, well you're just flat out cheating and making excuses for it. If you haven't ever run a 3:05 marathon and at the young age of 54 you BQ with a 3:07 you're cheating/doping. If you need to win to make yourself feel better go for it I guess but make sure you don't tell people you're taking HGH, or that you had someone create a fake ID and sit for the bar exam/SAT/MCAT/ACT to get you where you are today. There is this challenge going around you should check out...
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Agreed. But there are people who are actually clean, outspoken about being clean, and can prove they are clean. They work just as hard as those who cheat. So therein lies the problem-it's not fair to people like Phil Gaimon or Joe Dombrowski when they get beat by someone with an eyebrow raising performance who thinks he is just doping to level the playing field. I don't think doping "to level the playing field" in cycling is not going on any more like it was in the mid 2000's.
Some amount of skepticism is good, but doping hasn't ruined sports for me. I do tend to root more for athletes I know are clean though. I already knew Froome was utilizing grey areas before the Vuelta, so this isn't surprising. I wouldn't call what Froome got tested positive for "doping" just because that implies something totally different.
Anyone following Gary Robbins' Barkley training? Absolutely insane. I admire that much training for a race with no prize money and not really a lot of fame either.
OMR-is it just on one side or both sides?
OMR - Thanks. Per the plan peak mileage is "only" 60. I'll probably stick pretty close to the plan, but still hit 65 or a little more just due to the fact that the routes I run pretty much have to be a bit longer than called for (or else a couple miles short).
Dwave - I think you pretty much nailed it regarding PEDs. You're quite diplomatic with your edits, by the way. You initial phrasing would likely have been the same way that thought formed in my head.
Brew - Very nifty that the race organization offers entry credits like that. I haven't heard of any such happenings here.
There's an interesting local school board election today. At least as interesting as these things can be. I'll be curious to see how it plays out later.
Lots of interesting responses re doping. Appreciate everyone weighing in.
That's hilarious - thanks for the laugh!
Nice miles and weeks everyone. I'm short on time and exhausted for a lot of reasons, so not much in me for shout-outs at the moment, but I'll be back. Last week I ran 34 miles, which felt pretty good.
Cheating and athletes: I tend to agree that for those of us that are non-elites, I don't get it in the sense that I would personally never do it. I'm of the mindset that it's just not worth it, and it's not worth risking my integrity. Much of this is influenced by actually having been an elite athlete in another sport. I'm pretty disillusioned of said other sport (gymnastics) at the moment for what is likely obvious reasons, but looking back at what myself and other elite athletes endured, put up with, and did to our bodies (re: almost destroyed them) - I can't say "well it was totally worth it". So the notion that it's worth it as an amateur is hard to reconcile with. I totally get the pressures of elite athletes, and can empathize with how hard it is to make sound and/or healthy choices in that environment.
5.6 miles this morning.. will likely go for another short run, too.
PRs: HM: 1:32:59 (2015); FM: 3:18:36 (2017)