Forums >Racing>2018 Sub-3. No rules. Run.
Weather: I am curious if that barefoot guy ran the whole marathon or was part of one of the marathon relay teams. I kind of think he did the full thing since he was around past 10 miles and the first relay handoffs were before that. He seemed perfectly comfortable and had good form.
Mikey: If I find a perfectly flat spring marathon course and get the bug I may still do one in the spring.
BGS: Your training looks great, the only missing part is some kind of faster running. I don't think you need to do too much, just once a week maybe some threshold paced reps. There's a lot of different variations you can do, just look at what people are doing on this thread.
Also, if your tune-up race doesn't work out you can always go to the track and do a time trial. The nice thing about that is you can choose a good weather day for it.
JMac: I think if you get the final big workout 17 days out it will be fine. You should feel great about the half performance; if you can do that with a cold you will be flying come race day.
2:52:16 (2018)
JT- I saw the forecast while you were running, and I was wondering if you were getting pummeled by the rain. I'm guessing you lost a lot of time with the heavy shoes. A really nice race and a time to be proud of, even though the 2nd half didn't sound like a lot of fun.
BGS- We've been telling you the same thing for weeks now...slow down your runs. For instance I don't know what your 10 miles at 7:26 is. Multiple times you've said you weren't able to do your speed work. I mean I think you are going to do really well at your race, but getting in some tempo work would help you hit your max potential... if that 7:26 contains some really fast and really slow then maybe you are doing it.
JMac- Great race, nice strategy, and I hope the positive reinforcement you were looking for. I think you are in good shape moving forward. Hope you are feeling better today.
Exciting time with so many people having races coming up to follow along here. Not looking forward to what pfitz is calling for this week for me, after so many easy weeks.
5k- 18:55 (2018) 10K- 39:04 (2017) Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)
RIP Milkman
Lots going on here, very exciting!
Kram - definitely won’t bury myself. Even my recovery run felt way too fresh today compared to what I’m used to, so I can definitely use a couple more days of training. I shouldn’t be feeling this good this early. I’m an avowed Daniels follower as you know, but the one thing I never got with him was his taper. On the higher mileage plans, it’s like some crazy 5 week taper. Anyways, that Saturday workout was bananas good job.
JT - Great race report. I love the super detailed ones, feels like it always give me a more personal insight into what people are feeling. One thing that did pop up to me in it: you felt hypothermic at the end. What would you have changed, if anything, with what you wore? I always wonder what I would wear in a cold rainy marathon. One interesting thing I read on LRC after Boston was that a lot of people mention that you need to take in more nutrition during that kind of race because your body is working so hard to stay warm that you burn through a significant amount of calories.
Madison - As one of the more experienced marathoners on here, what sort of taper has worked for you? I checked your logs and it looks like you do a 2 week taper, is that right? How do you normally structure it? Always interested in hearing what others do for tapers, I feel like a lot of guys with your abilities stick to 2 week tapers unless they’re feeling run down.
BGS - Do you run anything besides just easy runs? I think MPW is by far the most important indicator of marathon success, but if you are doing zero LT work, you’re short changing yourself. A lot of the older guys on here don’t do that stuff because they’re more injury prone, but if you want your top performance, you need to include that type of work. MP work is disputed (some people think it’s not really any different than an easy run but increases injury risk) and VO2 max is debatable as well. But skipping out on LT work is going to leave you short of potential.
Weather - Your weather has been unbelievable. 160 TDP in the morning in October?? Are you kidding me? Yet, you’re still trucking through. I was broken after 2 months of that weather. I know I say this like every week to you but it’s just so impressive.
Mikkey - Remember when you said this thread was dead a few weeks ago?? Anyway, appreciate your very kind words. I keep telling myself “this is it” for marathon training in terms of how hard I’m willing to work, but I already put in my Boston schedule and I plan on upping the mileage again. I don’t know if sub 2:30 is in the cards unless I went up to 100+ a week, but I definitely think 2:45 would be a great goal. I wish there was something between OTQ for us Americans and BQ. I guess that would be a Moose Mug? And hey don’t steal our sub 1:30 thread! JT is welcome to stick around anyway and report, he’s a long time member at this point and always like seeing how he’s doing. With his recent race, sub 1:20 is in the cards for his spring half.
Fin - you know me, old man of the thread: remind me what your next goal is now that you’re done with your half?
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Lots of great racing. I’ve really enjoyed the race reports and the ensuing commentary. Thanks also for the well wishes on the cold, which is almost gone ...
JMac — Impressive Half given your cold/cough. I think the 17-day taper strategy following a final big workout will work well for you. I’m struggling with the timing of my cold as well; delaying my goal race is not something I’ve had to do before. I STILL have a lingering cough, but it’s not enough to keep me from racing on Sunday. It takes longer to recover from being sick at my age ...
JT — You earlier referred to me as “experienced” along with Mikkey and CalBears. I’m old, yes, but I have zero experience running marathons under 3 hours like the other two. However, I’m faster now at 53 than I was at 29, which is one of the cool things about this sport. Great race report!
Sling — Regarding caffeine, 200 mg pills seem like a lot for a 125 lb person. Can they be cut in half? I read somewhere that the caffeine effect in races can be boosted by weaning yourself off caffeine in the week or two before a race. However, I became very irritable at work when I attempted this strategy a few years ago. I plan on using gels with 25 - 50 mg caffeine on Sunday.
BGS — Your training has been steady and solid. I’m not so sure I’d make any major changes at this point. Maybe just some faster running (MP-ish) in the latter part of your long runs? If your training for your marathon PR was at the same paces but lower volume than in your current cycle, then I like your chances at sub-3 based on the higher mileage alone.
Me — Weather looks ok for Sunday, mid- to upper-30s, with no snow in the forecast (although we’ve seen snow here this past week). I ran a harder week last week than I would normally run 2 weeks before a marathon, but that’s due to tapering for 3 full weeks before that (including a week of almost no running). Very easy, low volume stuff on tap for this week, with 2 miles @ MP on Wednesday to polish things off. Thanks, madisonrunner, for the suggestion.
Sling: Accu-weather was not quite accurate for the hourly rain predictions Saturday; that morning before I left for the race it was showing 60% chance for the 8AM and 9AM hours, but 10AM was down to 30-something%. It ended up raining steadily the whole time though. In a way I think it was a good thing as that made it even cooler and made hydration even less of a concern.
About the caffeine use, I think for you or Madison, people who don't drink coffee, it may be beneficial for a race, but for those of us who drink coffee daily it doesn't do much. Although I use some caffeinated gels for marathons I haven't noticed any boost of energy out of them. I also tried what Subdood mentioned, to not drink coffee for the week prior to a race, and that lasted not even one day as I got a headache from not having my morning coffee.
JMac: Not sure I would have done anything different to try to prevent the post-race hypothermia. I think the only thing that would have helped is having a hot shower to jump into immediately after the race. As far as taking more nutrition during the race, I was actually struggling a bit with the gels towards the last 2; they were making me feel a bit nauseous so don't think I could have taken any more. I was certainly glad I had a full change of dry clothes and shoes to get into after the race, that definitely helped.
Subdood: Mid to upper 30's sounds good if there is no precipitation and it's calm. Sounds like a good plan for taper week; if anything err on the side of running less and not more!
Thanks for the feedback. Probably too late to make any difference at this point but if I take another shot at sub 3 I will definitely heed the advice to include more quality workouts. I do feel like I have followed the suggestion to slow down but maybe I need to slow even more.
Subdood good luck this weekend, glad you are feeling better!
JT good luck with your surgery.
This is a good point. For those of us that drink coffee daily, I think of the caffeine in the gels as more preventing a crash/caffeine withdrawal symptoms than providing a boost. the only way it would provide a boost for me is if I did stop with coffee for the week before (and would have to ween off of it to prevent that nasty headache), and that just doesn't seem worth it to me.
Gels are such an interesting topic. I've heard everything from take them every 5K to you only needing something like Gatorade on the course. I think the right approach is "as much as your stomach can handle." For me, the first thing that goes in a race is not my legs or heart, it's a terrible side stitch. I get one EVERY race without fail. If I tried to take a gel in every 5K, I think the stitch pain would be unbearable. I already have to stop taking in anything after 20 miles to control it.
Thanks JMAC; Not going to lie though the last few days have gotten really tough mentally to hang in there. Usually at this point in mid October we have some relief, not so much in the maximum temperatures, but certainly in the overnight mins and DP. This morning it was still freaking 83 degrees at 3AM! Actually thinking about mixing a few treadmills run if it doesn't moderate some soon.
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
Guys, please continue exchanging information about weather. I need to hear that every time I want to leave Northern California . It was 49oF this morning and it will be 82oF at the heat peak of the day. Interestingly, that kind of temps we regularly have for the whole year except maybe December, January and part of February sometimes where the night lows go down to 32-35 and highs are around 55-60oF. Yeah, I know - it can be chilly here too...
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
I think I'm making the right decision to start my taper a bit later. My legs feel way too good at this point, even after putting in the half effort on Sunday, as I was pretty easily clocking 6:55-7:05 on my easy run yesterday, which is about 20 seconds faster than I normally do in this cool weather. I shouldn't be feeling this fresh until the week of the race.
The 2Q plan calls for 2E + 4x2T + 2E tomorrow, but I'm going to extend the warmup to 7 miles so it's much closer to what I was running the entire cycle. After that, I assume my legs should be nice and cooked and I will shut it down for the taper and revert back to the normal plan.
I think I'm making the right decision to start my taper a bit later. My legs feel way too good at this point, even after putting in the half effort on Sunday, as I was pretty easily clocking 6:55-7:05 on my easy run yesterday, which is about 20 seconds faster than I normally do in this cool weather. I shouldn't be feeling this fresh until the week of the race. The 2Q plan calls for 2E + 4x2T + 2E tomorrow, but I'm going to extend the warmup to 7 miles so it's much closer to what I was running the entire cycle. After that, I assume my legs should be nice and cooked and I will shut it down for the taper and revert back to the normal plan.
I'd do a 2E + 2x2T + 7E + 2x2T + 2E instead, let that T pace soak right in
5k: 17:32 (11/18) -- 10k: 38:47 (07/17) -- 10m: 60:23 (08/17) -- 1/2: 1:22:32 (11/17) -- full: 2:49:26 (04/17)
2020 Goals: Assault on 2:40! Next up: Toledo (Apr 26)
Wow, I was just trying to make the workout more difficult, not run myself into the ground with 17 days to go! On a serious note, it's amazing how a workout like that is much harder than running the 7 upfront and then doing the 4x2T. I completely failed at a similar workout recently where I went 6E + 2T + 6E + 2T, even though I had been successful with 8E + 4x2T. No idea why letting the T soak right in as you put it just destroys you.
How about doing this instead: 2E + (2T)M + [4E / 3M(R-1)]3 + 7EMTR - 3I
Just having some fun with Daniels equations...
Seriously though, anything with 4 x 2mi will be a good hard workout and set you up nicely going into the taper.
How about doing this instead: 2E + (2T)M + [4E / 3M(R-1)]3 + 7EMTR - 3I Just having some fun with Daniels equations... Seriously though, anything with 4 x 2mi will be a good hard workout and set you up nicely going into the taper.
As a math nerd, I approve of this joke
JMac - I typically do a 1-2 week taper. For this past marathon I just followed Pfitz's plan exactly for the taper. I get in some work at MP during the final 2 weeks. Per Pfitz this was just 2 miles but in previous cycles I've done 10 at MP 1 week out. I will cut mileage back a little bit but not a ton - mainly by not doing a long run the weekend before the marathon.