Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
Why would you ever run a half all out 2 weeks before a goal race? I see no way that it could possibly help you run a faster marathon 2 weeks later. It's not whether he can "handle" it, he can. It's whether it will possibly leave any residual fatigue for his marathon, or impact his taper. Just because you ran 1:23 into a 2:57 doesn't mean that it was a good idea. That's like if Kipchoge went out before Berlin and ran a 58 half just 2 weeks before, ran a 2:03 and saying it didn't hurt him at all, when in fact we know he's capable of 2:01.
* unlurk *
I ran a 10km race (NZ Road Race Champs) a week before my current HM PR. I've run 5km or 10km TT efforts a week before a race in the past too. I honestly think it's great prep and there's something to be said for the sharpness a good race effort brings, as well as the fact that mentally you're actually putting yourself in a tougher place (pace-wise) than what a longer race will require. That being said, there isn't a massive difference between 10km pace and HM pace for many runners so I'm not sure that extrapolates to a marathon in quite the same way.
* relurk *
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
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Also, a 15K all out is not a tempo effort. It's a race. Tempo effort would be running MP in a half marathon.
I think that this is where different definitions of tempo come in. For me, a tempo workout is one that focuses on lactate threshold. Thus...a race between 15K and 13.1 miles in length is (by my personal definition) a very hard tempo workout, requiring lots of recovery after.
On the broader point of racing within a few weeks of a marathon, it comes down to: 1) what are the risks and 2) what are the benefits.
Risks: injury, not recovering in time.
Benefits: practicing the skill of racing; developing fitness, having more than one chance to set a PR (assuming that you race well at shorter distances off of marathon training, which is not everyone)
For myself, as I've noted before, I really like racing a half-marathon all out 3 weeks before a marathon. I consider it both a tune-up and my final big workout, focusing on lactate threshold). Of course, 3 weeks is close enough to the marathon that it's not until a few days before the marathon that I feel recovered - my hunch is that in another few years I'll have to cut this, as the costs will outweigh the gains.
I wouldn't race a 5K a few days before a marathon because of 1) the injury risk, and 2) even a 5K takes more than a few days for me to recover from. I actually declined to race a turkey trot 5K 10 days out from CIM because I thought it was too close (plus, I was still recovering from my half). However, I do a 5K workout (can't really call it a tempo) 10 days out from a marathon, and run that one pretty darn hard - it helps me sharpen and peak.
15K two weeks out? I think it depends - kinda a borderline situation. On how quickly the runner recovers, how fast the runner is (the recovery time is really dependent on the duration of the race to some extent - if you're running 15K in substantially less than an hour, the recovery should be faster). And also on how much the marathon matters to you.
Personally, if I'm not able to race a half-marathon 3 weeks out, I very much like (bordering on need) to race a 5K-10K two weeks out. But that's me (and 15K would be too long a race for me that close). And there absolutely is a tradeoff to racing before a marathon that is different to each.
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I figured this might start something, glad I got everyone out of the woodwork
DW - I don’t view tempo as a distance or time, but rather an effort level. Therefore, I would view a “tempo” run as any of the following (approximately):
5K @ 15K Pace
10K @ HMP
20K @ MP
I think most people also view tempo as “comfortably hard.” How can an all out race be considered “comfortably hard” By definition it’s a 10 out 10 effort.
Andres - I should have clarified that I meant “if you want to run your absolute best in the marathon.” Clearly if you’d rather race more often, then go for it!
Mark - I agree racing beforehand is smart. You need these tune ups (you and I have specifically spoken about) in order to prep yourself mentally for the pain. However, you can get that by racing a much shorter distance if it’s going to be that close, or pushing the race much further away if you want longer distance.
I have to go back to one of my favorite things with running: given the purpose of this run, am I maxing out the benefit while minimizing the downside? I cannot see how a half just two weeks out accomplishes that. I mean, we got into an entire Internet shouting match regarding easy pace, and almost every single person talked about how running faster than needed is foolish on easy days. To me, running a half marathon just two weeks out from your goal race is foolish.
If you need a tune up just to remember what it feels like to race, then go race a 10K. It serves the exact same purpose with much less recovery time needed. If you absolutely feel that you need longer distance races, then they should be further out from your peak race. The point with racing isn’t just “can I recover in time.” It also has to be how it impacts all of the training surrounding the race.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
I'll go in the camp of saying a 15K 16 days out seems fine by me. Pfitz has an 8-10k 14 days out, and I think he's likely being pretty conservative with that, accounting for some people not recovering quickly. I personally would not do that workout, because I'm concerned about some lingering foot injuries. I'm nervous about my 8K this weekend for that reason.
Had an interesting easy vo2 workout today. On the track I often run lane 0 (grass) to add a little cushioning. I was surprised to find that I was able to consistently complete laps significantly faster in lane 2 with the same effort... maybe 4 seconds faster.
5k- 18:55 (2018) 10K- 39:04 (2017) Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)
Mmmm Bop
Coach Mikey can I just call you Coach?
No, it’s Coach Mikkey.
JMac - My local half just happened to be 2 weeks before my goal marathon and I felt good so decided to strike while the iron is hot. I guess I don’t take running as seriously as you and don’t mind taking the odd risk. Btw, I paced a 3:30 marathon the week before my marathon PR back in 2013. 😛.
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
powered by plants
15k more than 2 weeks out seems fine. Especially for someone on the younger side of things.
5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)
*downhill AF
A few thoughts on this
1. The term Tempo is crap. Everyone means different things. When I say tempo I mean the race pace that I could hold for an hour. I consider Tempo to be a pace (like 5/10/HM etc) the actual pace of this changes based on my fitness and level of fatigue I have going into that particular workout. By this definition you can't do a 10 mile (or 15k) Tempo, it's a race. I know MMC didn't call it a tempo, and I am shy of arguing with The Coach but hey ho.
2. The race itself is called the Frank Nealon Boston tune-up so it is clearly billed as an appropriate secondary race
3. MMC, if your fitness is there for aiming for 53:44 without giving it total effort then you're going to be taking it very easy for your stated goal of 2:50 at Boston.
4. I agree with JMac that probably optimal race prep wouldn't include this sort of race spacing but at our lowly level I think marathons are already too much all your eggs in one basket to risk training this hard just to get shitty weather etc on race day. I always feel like I need to use a bit of my marathon fitness to squeeze out some other results I can be happy with if race day sucks.
Upcoming; 14th Sep Scottish veterans XC trials, 289th Sep Great Scottish Run 1/2, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k
Oh, and to add to the 'I did X jut before I did Y'
I ran a 3k PB on Friday then a HM PM on Sunday last year,
DW - I don’t view tempo as a distance or time, but rather an effort level. Therefore, I would view a “tempo” run as any of the following (approximately): 5K @ 15K Pace 10K @ HMP 20K @ MP I think most people also view tempo as “comfortably hard.” How can an all out race be considered “comfortably hard” By definition it’s a 10 out 10 effort.
Yup - umpteen different definitions of tempo - as another example, I think the Hanson's plan always refers to marathon pace work as "tempo" - to me, that's marathon pace work.
I do see tempo as an effort not a pace, but to me it's that "just under the red line effort." In a workout, I hold that for a shorter period of time; in a 10 mile or half marathon race, I hold it much longer.
But I know others, including my coach, who use tempo as "a workout at the pace/effort for a certain race distance, that is sustained for less than that race distance." That appears to be the definition that works for you.
The Daniels "Comfortably Hard" thing has always stymied me, because he used that in conjunction with his definition of tempo as 20 minutes at the effort you could hold for 60 minutes. To me, that effort (10 mile race pace) is NOT comfortably hard. It's above that, and into uncomfortable. To me, marathon effort is comfortably hard - anything faster/harder than that effort level is NOT comfortable.
But....again, semantics. The junction between proper training theory and language.
I agree emphatically with your bolded part. And I also agree that for pretty much everyone, a half two weeks out that is raced all out (or even done at MP) would compromise performance in the full. I do think that a 15K two weeks out (the original question) is more of a cusp question - reasonable for some, not for others.
Pretty much agree with the sentiment discussed above. To me a tempo is a lactate threshold run, but I also feel that long duration MP runs or certainly HM's will fall into that range towards the end, but as Fin stated fatigue leading into will impact the effort as well. I also don't know why Daniels did away with his famous table where he showed how your tempo pace would change over duration (edition 2 maybe).
I'd say running a 15K in that timeframe shouldn't be that bad, but anything longer I would avoid. I know for my last HM, for whatever reason, my legs were wrecked for a good 8-9 days afterwards. Something about those last 3-4 miles at that effort in the wind likely put me over the edge. On the other hand I've had other HM race efforts where I felt I was good to go by the next week. Having said that generally it is good to take advantage of the marathon fitness, especially at our level, since the actual goal race weather (e.g. Boston) is such a crapshoot and usually less than ideal to begin with so why not!
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
Stotan Disciple
Tempo run is definitely an effort. It's a term being bastardized by everyone and their grandma. A tempo run as originally coined was 10-15 seconds slower than 5k pace so definitely a threshold and it doesn't last 5 miles or 10 mile especially at MP. A tempo is short and intense comfortably hard effort. It is not your MP race pace. It can be as short as 10 mins as long as 20min. 25mins mehhhhh its no longer a tempo. A crappy half marathon results in oh I tempo'd it. You cant run your tempo pace for more than 45 mins. evem less so if you're fast. By fast I mean elite. Elites tempo pace is 10k pace for me its between 12k and 15k???
Tempo run is definitely an effort. It's a term being bastardized by everyone and their grandma. A tempo run as originally coined was 10-15 seconds slower than 5k pace so definitely a threshold and it doesn't last 5 miles or 10 mile especially at MP. A tempo is short and intense comfortably hard effort. It is not your MP race pace.
It can be as short as 10 mins as long as 20min. 25mins mehhhhh its no longer a tempo.
A crappy half marathon results in oh I tempo'd it. You cant run your tempo pace for more than 45 mins. evem less so if you're fast. By fast I mean elite. Elites tempo pace is 10k pace for me its between 12k and 15k???
Thinking should be done first, before training begins.
By Kevin Beck As featured in the December 1999 issue of Running Times Magazine
After watching the first two dozen victims drift across the finish line of a local five-miler one steamy morning last summer, I tracked down a friend, an accomplished road warrior with a 26:00 PR for the distance. A quick look at the guy—he was slouched over a fence and muttering to himself—suggested he’d made no concessions to the smothering July heat and humidity. Turns out he had finished somewhat below his usual spot in the regional pecking order, and I asked him—gingerly—how he felt about his race.
"Ahhh," he grumbled, flinging sweat into my face with a dismissive wave of his hand. "I ended up basically doing a tempo run."
Oh, I see. And this "tempo run" had ended in a grunting, flailing sprint to the finish to reel in a long-haired fellow with a nipple ring. I asked my friend about his splits.
"Went out in 5:00, 5:15. Didn’t check the third mile, but by then I was feeling it and didn’t care. I just kind of cruised in." Another wave.
This time I dodged the sweat-bullets and thought: He’d run his first mile faster than his 5K race pace. Tempo run?
Another friend reported doing a recent "two-mile tempo run," with the first mile in 5:14 and the second in 5:34. The uneven pacing was no surprise to me; she had recently run a peak-effort 5K at 5:25 pace, which suggests she was sucking a lot of air after the first mile of her workout.
This pattern of extremely ambitious "tempo runs" seems to be on the rise. Imprudent use of the t-word is endemic among runners, and the above examples clearly indicate that even seasoned, top-notch competitors either don’t know or don’t care what a tempo run really is. This is surprising, because the term is clearly and simply defined by coaches and exercise physiologists. And this is not a matter of nit-picking semantics; doing a tempo run incorrectly greatly compromises its training benefits.
The Real (and Unreal) Thing
The term "tempo run" is to distance running in the ’90s what Studio 54 was to ’70s decadence: Tossing it around separates the wannabes from the in-crowd. It’s a key staple in the training diet, to be sure, but very few seem to know just what the recipe calls for.
Nimmals - just to be clear, that was you, not a quote from Mikkey right? Overall, I lean more towards your camp, but I know even Daniels who looked at the whole "20 minutes at 60 minute race pace" softened it a bit by extending his temp runs up to 60 minutes at a slower pace.
Just a point on the entire "I ran X PR followed by Y PR." Doesn't everyone realize how highly correlated those two are going to be? Obviously if you PR in a shorter distance, there's a good chance you will be PR in a longer distance soon after because your fitness is translatable. The point is you could have possibly ran Y faster without that race.
I'll go back to the question I asked earlier: what is the point of running a half (or 15K) just 2 weeks before your goal race? If it's just because you want to capitalize on fitness and snatch a PR, then you're okay, can't argue with that. You probably can a) capture that new PR and b) recover enough such that your marathon isn't completely ruined. Maybe I'm just in the camp that says your goal race is your goal race and every run/workout should be towards further advancing the likelihood of you meeting targets in that goal. Therefore, any race in a marathon buildup is just a tune up for me. If I'm racing it all out, it will be well in advance of my goal race, with the idea being that any sacrifice it has on workouts surrounding that tune up is more than outweighed from the benefits I get from getting rid of racing rust. I also like these races near the start of a cycle to give me an honest assessment of where my fitness is. Sometimes my legs are telling me something in a workout, but a race can give you an honest view into things.
pie man
Jumping in to point out that Cherry Blossom was started at that time of year and that distance specifically as something for folks running Boston. So there was a point in time where the thing to do was run a hard 10 miler two weeks out from your goal marathon. Of course people raced marathons more frequently back then, so maybe Boston wasn't that huge goal it is now.
11:11 3,000 (recent)
heh - PJ beat me to this point. Of course, Cherry Blossom now regularly ends up being 7 days before Boston (that's the case this year, and was also true last year) so....
Jmac - as for your "what is the point" question (which I agree is the question to ask), I don't see running another race during a marathon cycle, even 2-3 weeks before the marathon, as solely an eggs in one basket versus hedging question. As I think I've noted before, I see a longer race in the 10M-13.1 length as both a race and a massive workout that reaps benefits and is worth taking the time to rest before and taper after.
I rarely run well when I race half-marathons during marathon training - the reason I like to include one 3 weeks pre-marathon is primarily for the fitness boost I believe it gives me - much more beneficial than another more week of mileage+long run with marathon pace work. If I PR in the half (which is extremely rare during a marathon cycle - it's only happened once) it's a bonus, but not the goal. And I really like the half to be 3 weeks out, and not earlier, so that it works as both the final very hard marathon cycle workout, and a transition to shorter peaking stuff. Do it earlier in the cycle, and it means I'm jumping out and then back into marathon strength training.
[I should note, I'm not perfectly addressing your point, which was "why the heck run a half two weeks out" - I'm agreed that 2 weeks is too close for 99% of the population - Wardians and Kawauchis excluded]
Nimmals - the habit some people have of mentally reframing a bad race as a "tempo workout" drives me insane. A bad race does not produce the same training benefits as a well executed workout. And plus, to train and race at your best, you need to be honest with yourself. Self-deception will not yield positive results in the long run.