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Easy run question (Read 1341 times)

    Just an update.  I went out again last night and kept my precieved effort constant for my entire run.  I was running solo so I ended up talking to myself (stop laughing it worked) on and off to make sure that I was at about the right level.  I held the same 6:30/km pace that and even with some extra distance added on I finished feeling terrific and kind of wishing that I had planned on more.

     

    Dude, sweet.

     

    Keep focused on consistency and resist the temptation to add more before you are sure you've got the consistency thing dialed in.

       I disagree

       

      When I started running and I was 300+ pounds - I did run hard and then walk - I had a 4 mile loop.  After a few weeks I could run the whole loop - Hard.  It was mentally and physically hard because I was running too fast - Between 8-8:30 miles.  I continued to add miles at a too fast speed.  I said I ran easy - But I never did.  Eventually I worked into a hard speed and a really hard speed.  Still every run was not physcially or mentally easy.

       

      Then I learned whay easy was and running was much more fun -

       

      You know on easy long runs or recovery runs - I still add walk breaks on occassion.  When my goal is to run 30 or 40 miles and I am feeling a bit tired.  I have 2 choices - to run 15 miles easy without walk breaks or add 5 or 6 2 minute walk breaks and make all 30-40 miles.

       

      Lets go with the experts that have always said - Easy is @ 2 minutes slower than marathon pace.   I agree that every day easy can be different - Some days 7:30 is easy and others 8:30.  Since we have a lot of people around here that have easy runs that avereage < 8:00 pace.  We must have a lot of sub 2:40 marathoners. 

       

      That would be super, crazy easy for me in my experience. I seem to be somewhere around 18 flat shape right now and depending on the day 7:30-8:00 pace can be easy. The 8:45 or so pace that would prescribe is definitely true recovery type running for me. I doubt that would get my HR to even 60% of max if I ever bother to check. 

       

      I've never seen the MP-2 min thing though. Both McMillian and Daniel's (7:15-7:40ish/7:45) give paces much quick than MP-2 (8:45) for easy runs. Obviously that kinda of super easy run pace, or slower, works for some people (read: Wejo) but it seems to be way slower than most of the paces that calculators like to give.

       

      Then again, what do I care about that stuff? Tbh I just like going out there and trying to get in touch with my body and doing stuff by feel. 

       

      I do realize that you can run without one, but it is SO much easier for a newbie to use one and it really lets you quantitatively identify where you are at.  You don't need a watch or mile markers to run either but most of you use one or both of those.  A heart rate monitor is an effective tool and while you might not feel one is required, it can be very helpful.

       

       

       Sure, it can give you qualitative data. At the same time too I find lots of stuff can throw that off. Some days a HR of 140 is pointedly NOT an easy run. Other days 145 can be effortless with a feeling of running on air. 

       

      I just don't think I trust HR more than I trust how I actually feel on the run. 

      They say golf is like life, but don't believe them. Golf is more complicated than that. "If I am still standing at the end of the race, hit me with a Board and knock me down, because that means I didn't run hard enough" If a lot of people gripped a knife and fork the way they do a golf club, they'd starve to death. "Don't fear moving slowly forward...fear standing still."


      A Saucy Wench

        I'm one of the one's who falls on the slow end of the spectrum.  If you do use McMillan charts (and I  tend to glance at them because when I am in shape I track very very very close 5K through Marathon)  for any given run type I tend to barely squeak into the slowest end of the pace.  Except maybe long run which is basically the same as easy pace for me. 

         

        Here is my problem with the charts for a newer runner.  Those charts are designed for someone fairly well trained for the distance you are basing them off of.  They can be WILDLY off  for most people.   And they can be off in either direction depending on what your tendencies are.  DB is a prime example of someone who is the polar opposite of what I was as a new runner .  He ran everything too hard.  I ran everything too easy.  But from the sounds of things and from my experience training newbie runners I am a rare exception. 

        I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

         

        "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

        DoppleBock


          I do think for more experienced runners - You can have a larger range of easy depending on your current mileage, the mileage you are running today and how your body is feeling (Functioning) today.

           

          I used to tell myself that it felt easier and more efficient to run at 6:45-7:15 on easy 6-8 mile runs than running 7:45-8:15.  Yes it felt better in the run, but the accumulation of running "Easy" runs like this all week long, along with speed work left the speed work workouts less than what they coould have been.

           

          Even now - I will run a 8 miler with the 1st 6 miles 8:15-8:30 and finish up with a 7:30 and a 6:30 if I am feeling good.  If I am not feeling good I just keep it at 8:15-8:30.  But that is in the frame of reference of running every day - running an everage of 2 times a day, sometimes 3 times a day and hitting 150-200 miles per week.

           

          When I was new to running - I ran 1 time per day the 1st 2.5 years.  60 MPW the at 9 months - 70-80 the next 9 months and 80-100 the next year.  My legs always hurt because I was running an everage of 6:45-7:00 pace on all runs.  For a 3:00 marathoner running that mileage I think it was way too fast.

          http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

          2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

           

          DoppleBock


            I even think running on the fast side of easy is great - Just not every easy run.  Sometimes everyone should back off and enjoy the sunshine of their face.

            http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

            2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

             

              I'm one of the one's who falls on the slow end of the spectrum.  If you do use McMillan charts (and I  tend to glance at them because when I am in shape I track very very very close 5K through Marathon)  for any given run type I tend to barely squeak into the slowest end of the pace.  Except maybe long run which is basically the same as easy pace for me. 

               

              Here is my problem with the charts for a newer runner.  Those charts are designed for someone fairly well trained for the distance you are basing them off of.  They can be WILDLY off  for most people.   And they can be off in either direction depending on what your tendencies are.  DB is a prime example of someone who is the polar opposite of what I was as a new runner .  He ran everything too hard.  I ran everything too easy.  But from the sounds of things and from my experience training newbie runners I am a rare exception. 

               

              You certainly are in my limited experience. When friends run with me they almost invariably run much to hard, even going well ahead of me if I cut the pace down to 11/12+ minute/mile myself.

               

              My theory on this is that even people that have let themselves get out of shape usually have done some running, often in a sport-related context.  Like if you play some pick-up ball now and then and that is the extent of your physical activity I'm not sure you'll necessarily be in any sort of decent aerobic conditioning. But on the court your probably moving anywhere from 7-12+ mph. My suspicion is that when people then decide to get in shape any muscle memory they do have is of that faster running. But unless your fairly fit those speeds are awfully fast, and obviously too intense for an out of shape beginner. 

               

              The struggling with slow might be the same thing because if your used to running sub 8:00 pace from occasional sport activities 12:00+ pace is going to feel really, really slow and probably a bit awkward. 

               

               

              I even think running on the fast side of easy is great - Just not every easy run.  Sometimes everyone should back off and enjoy the sunshine of their face.

               

              This sort of thing has worked pretty well for me. When I go out for normal runs I like to just feel them out. I start out around my "standard" easy pace and then see how I feel after a couple minutes.

               

              If I feel at all sluggish, I'll drop of effort quite a bit and run easy easy. If I get out there and find I feel snappy and smooth I tend to let the run progress to "whatever feels good", which is usually fast, easy. If I still feel great a mile/two from the end and don't have an immediate workout I'll sometimes open up to a progression going MPish, and then in the last half mile going from like HMP -> 400m pace...but keeping everything short enough that I am never hurting or working. Even 400m pace isn't hard for 50m. :P

              They say golf is like life, but don't believe them. Golf is more complicated than that. "If I am still standing at the end of the race, hit me with a Board and knock me down, because that means I didn't run hard enough" If a lot of people gripped a knife and fork the way they do a golf club, they'd starve to death. "Don't fear moving slowly forward...fear standing still."


              HobbyJogger & HobbyRacer

                I even think running on the fast side of easy is great - Just not every easy run.  Sometimes everyone should back off and enjoy the sunshine of their face.

                 

                I was surprised last night. I ran easy - I thought - for about 10 mi with some friends. Then on my way home, I encountered some other friends, and ran easy with them for a couple more miles. The second run was at least 1.5min/mi slower, and felt much easier -- during the first 10mi I'd felt soreness.

                 

                It's hard to know whether some of that is warming up, but I'm pretty sure that some of that was just that slowing down to quite slow made me really comfortable.

                 

                I'd kind of forgotten that lesson recently.

                It's a 5k. It hurt like hell...then I tried to pick it up. The end.


                A Saucy Wench

                  You certainly are in my limited experience. When friends run with me they almost invariably run much to hard, even going well ahead of me if I cut the pace down to 11/12+ minute/mile myself.

                   

                   

                  Yeah.  That's how it is with most people.  I wonder if it is because I had a lot of hiking and other stuff in my background.  I came in to it knowing how to pace for doing something a really long time.  I was the kid who would swim for 8 hours, but dont ask me to race. I also thought there was no way ever in hell I could ever be a runner.  So I was always holding back so I didnt blow up.  I also had been in a lot of situations where the"percieved exertion scale" was used and I took the talk test to heart.   I probably had ZERO experience in most of my life of pushing my HR above easy pace. 

                  I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                   

                  "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

                    Yeah.  That's how it is with most people.  I wonder if it is because I had a lot of hiking and other stuff in my background.  I came in to it knowing how to pace for doing something a really long time.  I was the kid who would swim for 8 hours, but dont ask me to race. I also thought there was no way ever in hell I could ever be a runner.  So I was always holding back so I didnt blow up.  I also had been in a lot of situations where the"percieved exertion scale" was used and I took the talk test to heart.   I probably had ZERO experience in most of my life of pushing my HR above easy pace. 

                     

                    Maybe it also has something to do with the fact that you are not a wacked out hyper competitive middle aged dude.

                    DoppleBock


                      Amen - You should have seen my 1st race when I started all of this crap in 2003.  I was 286# - It was a 3 mile race.  I would guess my HR was pegged by 400 meters - I was a heart attack begging to happen.  I finished in 20:05 - Just 20 seconds behind my skinny (6'0 140#) runner freind that ran CC and track in HS.  I can gurantee that if I had it in me I would have beat him.  It hurt and sucked the whole way - I should have just quit right then are there!

                       

                      Maybe it also has something to do with the fact that you are not a wacked out hyper competitive middle aged dude.

                      http://a-big-horse.blogspot.com/ 

                      2013 Goals ~ Mar < 3:00, 5M < 29, 10k < 35  

                       


                      A Saucy Wench

                        Maybe it also has something to do with the fact that you are not a wacked out hyper competitive middle aged dude.

                         Nah, because all my chick friends run too fast as well, and I am probably the most hyper competitive of them all

                        I have become Death, the destroyer of electronic gadgets

                         

                        "When I got too tired to run anymore I just pretended I wasnt tired and kept running anyway" - dd, age 7

                           Nah, because all my chick friends run too fast as well, and I am probably the most hyper competitive of them all

                           

                          Hmm. I guess the pink boxing gloves of doom shoulda clued me in.

                            On a serious note, last year Nobby and others gave me the advice slow down, so I did and then I slowed down some more,  back then a 3 mile run seemed like the hardest thing on the planet, but 2 miles slow, wow what a change it felt "easy", some said I should get a heart rate monitor but what I like about running is the lack of stuff. As I have never run hated it, I was building from the ground up. Since then my build up has been slow, just completed my first 9 mile run, lungs felt good but the legs were starting to rebel, could have kept going though. 

                             

                            The Newbies out there do listen and learn and it is possible to learn what easy feels like without years of experience.

                             

                            PS If anyone looks at my log, my race numbers are slow compared to training as I can not race with my Border Collie who is my training partner, he runs in harness and does affect my times. 

                            DanMoriarity


                              In my humble opinion, intelligent running begins with learning how to listen to your body. 

                               

                              McMillan's charts are useful guidelines, but eventually a runner will have to learn how to listen to his or her body. My opinion is that this learning is something that should be embraced from the very outset. That's the general place that my advice comes from. I worry that when runners substitute pace charts or even heart rate monitors in an attempt to shortcut this learning, they are delaying the most important piece of learning how to train.

                               

                              I could be wrong.

                               

                              You could be wrong, but I agree with you. I even wrote an article on it a while ago: http://fullstriderunning.com/2011/10/how-easy-is-easy/

                               

                              I have gone through a heart rate monitor wearing phase and had some success with it, but I think it's better to learn how to listen to your body. Variables such as hydration levels, time of day and degree of muscular fatigue can influence how you feel and are independent of your heart rate.

                               

                              Of course, we could both be wrong Smile

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