2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 528 times)

Nimmals


    JT Reeves First of congrats on a nice week.The  race went well I was running on fumes so i cruised 75, 70, 70, 68. No one was close then I ran the open an hour later that was much harder as those guys went out very fast i ran smooth though 70,70,70, 69 for a 4:39. So I went faster but I never attacked. just wanted two good miles under me on an intended 100 mile week. Last year I was the same trying to replicate last year.

     

    Darkwave Thank you. Enjoyed your blog about B&B. My friend rides her horse every day so she may not agree about the attcahment lol. As for the young lady, that shows a real maturity. I coach about three high school kids and they attack me relentlessly.  Two of them have beaten me at one time or another but  they always attack and I may catch them towards the end. So to see someone that young be so patient is a rarity.  I live for the mile. So I jumped at the opportunity to do two. The mile is so natural to me I can run a decent mile on no warm up.

     

    Weather thank you nice week as well. How long before it starts to cool off. LOL asking for a friend who complains daily.

    JMac11


    Benevolent Leader

      Dwave - I enjoyed your RR, I'll get mine up soon. That's the problem with 5Ks though, too many youngins!

       

      JT - if your schedule allows, you MUST race this weekend. Have you checked out Saturday morning conditions? For August, that may be top 5% possible. 65F and 57DP in your neck of the woods at 8 am???? Please, do it for me 

       

      MMC - yes, I do strides at least once a week, and have been getting in 2 quality days a week, usually cruise intervals in one and then VO2 max or Mile paced work in the other.

       

      Weather - I still look at your log in amazement. How do you not burn out?

       

      Nimmals - we were speaking about tapering a bit. I'm coming into my "peak" race next weekend as a 5K. It's peak just because it's my last 5K before I take 10 days off for vacation (followed by CIM training), so I want to give it my all. I was thinking of a) limiting my long run to 90 minutes this weekend b) just run a sharpening workout on Tuesday (Daniels recommends 3x1 mile at LT pace, but I'm not sure if that makes sense for a 5K) and c) tapering down to 9, 7, and 5 miles the three days prior to the race. What do you think?

      5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

       

      Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (10/5/19)

      Nimmals


        JMAC,  Thats sensible 90 minutes is about 12 miles for me. If its a season Peak race 60-90 minutes would suffice.

        I would even take a day off and an easy shakeout day so if Saturday. Feeling fresh goes a long way in a 5k.

        Sun 12-14 mi

        Mon 9 mi

        Tue 7 mi\ Or OFF

        Wed 7mi

        Thu Off

        Fri 5 mi shake-out with 4x 150m gear changers

        Race

         

        If a Sunday race I'd take two rest days. A well executed 5K is intense,

        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

           

           

          DW: Nice job on the 5k race. I'll re-ask about Futterman's book Running to the Edge...I'm curious how you found it. Also if anyone else here has read it please chime in. I thought it was great.

           

           

          Hey - sorry I missed this before.

           

          I also thought it was fantastic.  I highly highly recommend it to anyone that hasn't read it.  Much better IMHO than either Once a Runner or Running with the Buffalos.

           

          My only quibble was that at the beginning of the book (and this drove me nuts) the author implies that humans are the only animals that sweat, and then refers to "dogs and horses panting."  I have never seen or heard of a horse panting in all my years working with them, and I can assure everyone that horses sweat, often and profusely.

           

          It was such a stunning inaccuracy that it really bugged me the rest of the book, as I wondered how much else of what was purportedly a true story was perhaps distorted.  But, whether it was fact or fictionalized fact, it was still a good read.

           

          Nimmals - I was impressed also with her.  She ran a very smart race.    Apparently she was one of the top high school cross country runners in the DC area about 2 years ago, so a fair amount of experience, I guess.

           

          As for the horse-emotional attachment thing - I don't disagree that some of them can get attached to a person.  But in this particular case, I bought Basil as an investment during my attempt to make a comeback in the sport.   Plan was to own him for about 2 years, develop him, sell him for a good chunk more than I paid for him.  I boarded him and rode him 3-4 times a week, which wasn't enough to form a deep attachment.

          Then....he got hurt, and I started running just to keep in shape while he came back.  But....I couldn't get him healthy, and I started enjoying competitive running, so he ended up becoming a pasture ornament and living high off of my $.  Lucky him Smile

           

          [and yes, this is why trying to make $ off of horses is a bad idea, even if you know what you're doing.  Horses are very risky investments.]

           

          ZZCaptain Obvious - that was a good week for the travel.

           

          Weather - agree and sympathize on the need to break up the tempos.  The comment about frogs and portapotties was....interesting.

           

          Jmac - I really like Nimmals's thoughts on the taper week (not that you need my endorsement, of course)

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

            JT - if your schedule allows, you MUST race this weekend. Have you checked out Saturday morning conditions? For August, that may be top 5% possible. 65F and 57DP in your neck of the woods at 8 am???? Please, do it for me 

             

             

            JMac: I was actually looking for a half this weekend as it is 4 weeks out from Erie and the time to do it, but could not find anything. I will probably do a LR with big MP block in it Sunday morning, which also looks to be great weather. Another option is a 10 mile time trial on the track but not sure I am in the mindset for that.

             

            Nimmals: Those are two great times especially in the middle of a 100 mile week, nice work!

             

            Captain: You were very fast!! Was just looking at your training log (I guess you recently created it?) and saw your 5k and 10k PRs... very impressive. Those weren't terribly long ago so you should have a lot of potential in the marathon. You've been sandbagging!!! 

             

            DW: I knew you would have read it!  I vaguely remember the horse panting bit, but did not pay too much attention to it. I do have to admit that I usually skipped over the italics parts where Futterman writes about his own running... those were not of much interest to me. Luckily they are nicely separated from the rest of the book and thus easy to jump over.

            5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

            Up next: Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)

            jayluf


               JT - Just throwing this out there, I'll be in CT this weekend and have 15 miles w/ 30min hard on trails I was planning to do in West Hartford around the Hartford Reservoir (albany ave) on Saturday morning.

               

               

              JMac: I was actually looking for a half this weekend as it is 4 weeks out from Erie and the time to do it, but could not find anything. I will probably do a LR with big MP block in it Sunday morning, which also looks to be great weather. Another option is a 10 mile time trial on the track but not sure I am in the mindset for that.

               

               

               

              RE: Taper; I'm a big fan of taking a rest day two days before goal race (or really any race) and doing shakeout plus a few quick strides the day before.

              JMac11


              Benevolent Leader

                Thanks nimmals (and DW for endorsement). It's interesting that you guys view 5K tapers very similar to how I would taper for a half. Do you guys (and others!) view a 5K taper no differently than you would for a half, with a full in its own category?

                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                 

                Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (10/5/19)

                darkwave


                Mother of Cats

                  Thanks nimmals (and DW for endorsement). It's interesting that you guys view 5K tapers very similar to how I would taper for a half. Do you guys (and others!) view a 5K taper no differently than you would for a half, with a full in its own category?

                   

                  No, I taper a bit longer for a goal half or 10 miler - about 10 days for those.

                   

                  To my mind, when you taper, you're balancing three things:

                   

                  1) doing enough to stay sharp and not get flat

                  2) resting up enough to freshen up

                  3) doing enough to keep the ball rolling fitness wise.

                   

                  For a mid-season race, you have to balance all three; for something that is truly an end-of-season goal race, I toss out #3 and just balance the first two.  But, of course, the balance you strike for the first two depends on the nature of the goal race.  The longer the race distance, the more I'm focused on being fresh and fully topping off my reserves and the less on being super sharp (though sharp still matters).

                  Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                   

                  And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                  weatherboy80


                    DW: As for the frog and porta potty incident lets just say the one I picked (after lots of rain and near a pond) at 5:30 AM happened to already been occupied by about a dozen frogs jumping around in there!  One also jumped on my shoulder so let's just say I got out there fairly quickly Wink

                     

                    JMac: As for burnout, not sure but there are certainly times where it can be hard.  Overall I love the training, volume, and workouts (not always).  I do think, as we have discussed before that it is good to reset a bit from time to time.  I know my volume is still up there, but most of my workouts this summer have not been the killers like I ran before Boston.  Plus leaning towards scaling back those crazy Daniels Q2 type stuff this fall before my next marathon similar to what you did.  BTW, that was a killer 1200 meter workout you just ran.  Can easily see sub 17 with you now.

                    5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                    ZZCaptainObvious


                       

                      Captain: You were very fast!! Was just looking at your training log (I guess you recently created it?) and saw your 5k and 10k PRs... very impressive. Those weren't terribly long ago so you should have a lot of potential in the marathon. You've been sandbagging!!! 

                      JT - emphasis on the "was" there. I spent two years really just enjoying life and food. Mostly food to be fair. I did only recently open up my log - I cleaned out the comments that would tell someone where I lived and when I'd be out of town (mostly), so I'm slightly less paranoid about that.

                      JMac11


                      Benevolent Leader

                        Weather - thanks for the kind words. The 1200 repeats were brutal and I'm so glad to be done with V02 max for the summer. I know in about 4 weeks I'll forget how hard they are and I'll want to do more of them. Pretty much exactly how I feel about marathons 

                         

                        DW - See, I consider my taper 10 days for halfs too, but isn't that exactly what I'm doing? I'm limiting the long run the weekend before the 5K, which I assume you do too, so isn't that basically a 10 day taper for a 5K as well? Maybe you get in one final hard workout 9 days in advance of the race instead, but it doesn't feel much different to me than how I would taper for a half.

                         

                        1) Last hard workout 9-10 days out

                        2) Limit last long run to 90 minutes max

                        3) Run a sharpening workout 4-5 days in advance of the race

                        4) Cut down mileage approaching the race, taking 2 days off before the race

                         

                        Aren't 1-4 exactly the same as a half?

                        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                         

                        Next Race: Grete's Great Gallop 10K (10/5/19)

                           JT - Just throwing this out there, I'll be in CT this weekend and have 15 miles w/ 30min hard on trails I was planning to do in West Hartford around the Hartford Reservoir (albany ave) on Saturday morning.

                          Hey thanks jayluf for the kind offer; would be great to run with you at some point but that's a bit too far of a drive for me and Sunday is my LR day (yes, I'm a bit of a routine person that way ).

                           

                          Weather: Missed your week in my previous post; great job. That LR looks tough; I have never dared to put T paced stuff in my long runs but I know Uncle Jack is big on it. As Swim would say you can eat steel after doing those for a cycle.

                           

                          BTW where are you Swim? How are things going?

                          5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                          Up next: Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)

                          M_M_C


                            Just looked at your 5K PR and saw it was at my home track and that I was in the 1500! It's too bad the Engineers Cup went away, that was a fun little meet.

                             

                            JT - emphasis on the "was" there. I spent two years really just enjoying life and food. Mostly food to be fair. I did only recently open up my log - I cleaned out the comments that would tell someone where I lived and when I'd be out of town (mostly), so I'm slightly less paranoid about that.

                            3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     15K: 54:46.2 (2019)     FM: 2:58:48 (2019)

                            ZZCaptainObvious


                              Just looked at your 5K PR and saw it was at my home track and that I was in the 1500! It's too bad the Engineers Cup went away, that was a fun little meet.

                               

                               

                              I was wondering if you had been at that meet! Small world. Nothing like the meet where "Go Tech" applied to everyone.

                               

                              Switching gears to tapering - I tend to have a pretty light taper, but that seems more like a function of low mileage for me or that my target race wasn't always the end of the season. It's usually just all easy running as well. Of course, I'm not quite as serious on training, so a taper doesn't help me as much, especially a longer taper.

                              darkwave


                              Mother of Cats

                                 

                                 

                                DW - See, I consider my taper 10 days for halfs too, but isn't that exactly what I'm doing? I'm limiting the long run the weekend before the 5K, which I assume you do too, so isn't that basically a 10 day taper for a 5K as well? Maybe you get in one final hard workout 9 days in advance of the race instead, but it doesn't feel much different to me than how I would taper for a half.

                                 

                                1) Last hard workout 9-10 days out

                                2) Limit last long run to 90 minutes max

                                3) Run a sharpening workout 4-5 days in advance of the race

                                4) Cut down mileage approaching the race, taking 2 days off before the race

                                 

                                Aren't 1-4 exactly the same as a half?

                                 

                                (sorry for belated response).

                                 

                                I see your point, and I can agree that the two are similar, but I do see some differences.  For one, I wouldn't give much thought to what workout I do more than 7 days out, if I'm doing a 7 day taper (other than the thought I always give to it) while I would if I'm doing a 10 day taper; also, a 10 day taper often means that I'm easing up on total volume of work for that 10 days, which includes stuff like running, but also all of my cross training.

                                 

                                I guess another way to put it is: when I'm in the taper period, every choice I make is aimed towards "how can I set myself up to run my best race".  And the period for which I hold that mindset is longer for the longer races.

                                 

                                I think another reason a 7 day taper for a 5K might look very similar to a 10 day taper for a half is that your mileage is presumably higher when focused on the half, so a reduction in that mileage over 10 days brings you to where you would be for a 5K.

                                Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                                 

                                And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.