2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 632 times)

Nimmals


    Nimmals - getting people to slow down on easy runs I think is your MO! One question for you on easy running since you are the leader of it: how do you feel about what the pace should be during a workout like a tempo-long-tempo, maybe something like 2T + 10E + 2T? Do you want to keep the pace up during that Easy portion, or can it be slow like every other easy run? Also, your mention of tibial tendinitis gave me bad reminders of my winter. It's a real bitch of an injury.

     

     

    JMAC in that instance it would be planned and Id stick to planned pace but warm up cool down id go as slow as 9:15

     

    So it'd go something like

    2WU @ 9:15-8:30

    2T @ 5:25-5:35

    10E  @ 6:55-7:05  (+60/+90)  +90 early in a cycle +60 in peak phase.

    2T @ 5:25-5:35

    2CD @ 8:30-9 :15

    JMac11


    Benevolent Leader

       

      So it'd go something like

      2WU @ 9:15-8:30

      2T @ 5:25-5:35

      10E  @ 6:55-7:05  (+60/+90)  +90 early in a cycle +60 in peak phase.

      2T @ 5:25-5:35

      2CD @ 8:30-9 :15

       

      This makes complete sense, thank you!

      5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

       

      Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

      JMac11


      Benevolent Leader

        Real quiet in here.

         

        I forgot how much things get sore when you really ramp up the mileage. I now have pains in my foot (I think from shoe laces tied too tight), a sore calf (from my first Q session in 5 weeks), and a sore right hip. I have to remind myself to keep rolling that stuff to keep it going from sore to compensating.

         

        It’s also amazing how old injuries get randomly sore. I’ve had so many random things, but they get sore at different points (ankle from my PTT, a weird ligament injury in my butt that knocked me out for a week years ago, and anterior knee pain last year). I feel like when I start a run, it’s just 2 miles of trying to get about 10 different spots warmed up.

         

        All of this always makes me wonder what the right warm up period is for different races. Of course, for 5Ks and lower you need at least 2 miles, but I wonder what the right warm up is for longer distances. I’ve never done anything for a marathon, but I’ve varied halfs from super light jogs, to full 2 mile warm ups.

        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

         

        Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)


        Yak-3 vs Spitfire

          Real quiet in here.

           

          I forgot how much things get sore when you really ramp up the mileage. I now have pains in my foot (I think from shoe laces tied too tight), a sore calf (from my first Q session in 5 weeks), and a sore right hip. I have to remind myself to keep rolling that stuff to keep it going from sore to compensating.

           ...

          All of this always makes me wonder what the right warm up period is for different races. Of course, for 5Ks and lower you need at least 2 miles, but I wonder what the right warm up is for longer distances. I’ve never done anything for a marathon, but I’ve varied halfs from super light jogs, to full 2 mile warm ups.

           

          I have similar reaction as you are to the first week of training plan - didn't do a plan for probably 3+ years and after first speedy workout followed by another faster than usual day, my legs feel really stressed and ready to get injured. Will probably run less and easier tomorrow than the plan prescribes but that's ok. I don't have many old injuries like you mention (probably because most of my runs are much much slower than yours plus no training plans for years) but I guess the major skill is to feel when it is not a good time to push your training - very hard to do that though... For marathons I ended up not doing much warm up - a set of 5-6 strides 10-15 minutes before the race is usually enough for me - no need to add another two miles as a warm up to the coming 26 ones. I could do 1-2 miles for half marathon with strides. The same probably for 10K and 5K but for those I do not care much - so, I really never tried to find out what works best.

            I've been meaning to post all week but never got around to it till now....

             

            JMac: You're too young to be complaining about soreness/injuries so much!  Just kidding... I think when you start hard workouts after a long stretch of easy running it is to be expected.  For warm-up, I think 1-2 miles is good for a half, but for a marathon I never do any warm-up. Use the first mile as your warm-up; the burned up fuel from running any warm-up is not worth losing, better to save it for the race.

             

            You asked how I'm feeling about sub 2:50; I feel like it is possible. As usual I will need the weather to cooperate. Not sure I am in significantly better shape than the last 2 cycles, but at least not worse shape, and hopefully a bit wiser.  I got a cold a couple of days ago (person sitting next to me on a flight Tuesday was coughing non-stop, so I was expecting it...); I'm actually kind of glad to get it now and be done with it well ahead of the race...one less thing to worry about.

             

            Weather: Your training is looking great. I agree with JMac, it would be interesting if you focused on the 5k-10k distance for a while to see how low you could go!  Maybe after your January marathon. BTW, 24 x 200 is crazy! My legs get sore just thinking about that 

             

            Nimmals: Huge week there at 110 miles!  What did you think about Kamworor's WR in the half?  58:01 comes out to 4:25 average pace . If there is an heir apparent to Kipchoge I think it is Kamworor. He's still really young and could do amazing things in the marathon if he stays healthy.

             

            jayluf: T minus 2 weeks to Berlin!!

             

            Madison: How are you doing? I'm a bit worried we haven;t heard from you for a while. Hope the leg is ok.

            5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

            Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

              I had business travel (and then catch-up from business travel).

               

              Funny that you posted that comment Jmac - I was just thinking how the big time suck in marathon training isn't the increased mileage, but all the time spent on recovery, pre- and post-run mobilization, etc.

               

              As for warm-ups, I need a LOT of warm-up.  For anything 10K and under, I go with 4 miles now, including:

              • 15-20 minutes easy jogging
              • 3:00 at half marathon effort, 90 second jog;
              • 4x 30 seconds at 5K effort with 30 seconds jog, 90 second jog after the last;
              • 4x10 seconds at mile effort with 20 seconds jog;
              • jog another half mile or so, then do some drills and strides until it's time to go.

              For 10 miles and half-marathons, I go with 2-3 miles, mostly easy jogging, but with 2x400m at goal effort, and then drills/strides until time to line up.  This doesn't totally warm me up, but I like to ease into those races over the first 2-3 miles.

               

              For the marathon, my warm-up is less than a mile, including doing about 30-40 seconds at marathon effort near the end.  I also plan to use the first few miles of the race to warm-up.  The purpose of the warm-up is to a) make sure everything feels comfortable - no chafing, loose shoes, etc and b) get the blood flowing just enough that my first mile isn't 8:00 pace.

               

              I also always feel free to cut these warm-up short if I feel like I'm good to go before it's done.  My goal is to do as much as I need, and no more.  But I often need a lot, especially for shorter distances.  I have absolutely no idea how people jog for a mile, do some drills and strides, and then race a 5K or mile.

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              madisonrunner


                Just a quick check-in.  I ended up getting an MRI and was diagnosed with a grade 2 tibial stress injury.  The injury is in a different place from where I felt the point tenderness (which is gone now).  I saw a sports medicine doctor and the plan is to take 2 weeks off from running (I'm biking but otherwise taking it easy), then try 10-13 with 6-8 at MP.  If that goes well then I will race Lakefront.  The crazy thing is that I've never had pain while running.  I have felt a bit of achyness while not running. The day I was diagnosed I ran 13 with 6x0.75 at VO2 max in the morning and ran 6 in the afternoon without pain.  But I'm being cautious and trying to stay optimistic.  My fitness is there and it won't go away with 2 weeks off.

                Marathon PR:  2:35:49 (2019)  Goal Races:  CIM (12/8)

                  Madison: So sorry to hear that. FWIW, I would shift your focus to CIM and bail on Lakefront. If it's a stress reaction (not a full blown fracture), you have time to let it heal and get back to full strength by CIM, but racing a full marathon in 2 weeks might push it to an SF. Just my 2 cents though.

                   

                  My week: The cold I caught a few days ago is at full strength now. I meant to do a LR of 22 this morning but felt like crap and decided to cut it short at 10 rather than power through it and make the cold drag out much longer. With 3 weeks to go now, I can still get in one good final LR of 20-22 next Sunday so should be fine.

                   

                  Weekly Summary
                  Monday, Sep 16, 2019 thru Sunday, Sep 22, 2019

                  <tfoot> </tfoot>
                  Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
                  Tue 10.0 8:43 Morning Run/Pittsburgh 843 strava
                  Wed 10.1 8:13 Morning Run 500 strava
                  Thu 12.0 6:50 Morning Run w/ 10 mi progression 599 strava
                  Fri 12.3 8:19 Afternoon Run 678 strava
                  Sat 7.7 9:34 Trails in Sega Park 558 strava
                  Sun 10.1 7:58 Morning Run 415 strava
                    62.2 8:11   3593  

                  5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                  Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                    Madison: So sorry to hear that. FWIW, I would shift your focus to CIM and bail on Lakefront. If it's a stress reaction (not a full blown fracture), you have time to let it heal and get back to full strength by CIM, but racing a full marathon in 2 weeks might push it to an SF. Just my 2 cents though.

                    I lean towards this as well.  Just because taking two weeks off and then jumping back fully into things seems like a big risk.  That's long enough to lose some durability - the stress reaction might be healed but something else would go pop.

                     

                    JTReeves - good call on cutting stuff short with the cold.  And better to get it now than the week before Hartford.

                     

                    My week: 60 miles, 2 hours (12 "miles") of pool-running, and 1000 yards of swimming
                    M: Off. (business trip to NYC)
                    T: 10 miles easy (8:25)* plus upper body weights/core. (* - Garmin was wonky, so this was probably slightly slower and shorter than reported).
                    W: 14 miles, including 3x2 miles in 12:37 (6:19/6:18), 12:34 (6:24/6:10) and 12:23 (6:13/6:10); half-mile recoveries of 5:30 after the first and 4:30 after the second (included some shoe re-tying between each rep for which I didn't pause my watch). Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                    Th: DIY yoga and 2 hours of pool-running
                    F: 8 miles very easy (8:55), upper body weights and core, then 4 miles very easy (8:36) plus drills and strides.
                    Sa: 17 miles, including 2x5 miles in 33:24 (6:41 pace) and 33:02 (6:36 pace) with one mile float in 7:35 in between. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                    Su: 4 miles very easy (8:55), yoga, and then 3 miles very easy (8:40).

                     

                    The astute observer might note that my easy runs have gotten slightly faster.  That's not necessarily improved fitness or better weather.  Historically, I've done my easy runs in the Nike Free Flyknit 4.0 - it works really well for me because it's thin, light, and has a very wide toebox (key for avoiding injury for me).  However, Nike's latest version of the shoe screwed it up, and now the toebox is too tight.  So I've swapped to using either the Adios or the Nike Streak 6 for my easy runs until I can find a good replacement.  (The Adios is what I use for my workouts and long runs).  Swapping from the Free to the Streak/Adios has definitely sped up my times for the same effort.

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    JMac11


                    Benevolent Leader

                      Madison - sorry to hear about that. I agree with everyone else: just give up on lakefront and focus on CIM. You are playing with fire trying to just storm back here. I had a tibial stress fracture before, and it cost me NINE months because I kept trying to rush back. Don’t let it get to that. Take it easy now, work back to CIM.

                       

                      DW - I did notice you speeding up! It’s not clear to me why exactly that happens. Anyway, you had a crazy good week, two very good workouts that show you’re in great shape. Also, your warm up is longer than I expected. It’s good to know though. I used to barely warm up for 5Ks (like 5 minutes), but I’ve gotten it up to 2 miles. The problem is in the summer it’s so hot that you’re trying to balance the warm up with just dehydrating yourself too much.

                       

                      JT - I know you always love the long run, but don’t go for too long with just 2 weeks to go. Yes, you will “recover” but you do not get the full benefit of a long run for 4-6 weeks. Go for 20 if you need it, but 22 seems excessive.

                       

                      Me - first week with quality. My first one went well on Tuesday, but Saturday was a disaster. I tried to keep up the easy pace in between my T sections as discussed with Nimmals, but I think it just led me to working too hard. Next time I’ll probably back off a good 15, up to 30 seconds, on the E portion. I’m sure the weather didn’t help either, as it was hot this weekend in the NE and I felt severely dehydrated by the end of the run.

                       

                      Still got the mileage up though, which is goal number 1 for CIM. That, plus no injuries.

                       

                       

                      Weekly Summary
                      Monday, Sep 16, 2019 thru Sunday, Sep 22, 2019

                      <tfoot> </tfoot>
                      Day Miles Pace Description Link
                      Mon 6.7 8:50 Evening Run strava
                      Tue 15.6 8:00 6E + 5x1K + 6x400 + 2E strava
                      Thu 10.9 8:22 Promotion Day + back at the marathon grind? Life is good strava
                      Fri 11.0 8:06 Morning Run strava
                      Sat 16.0 7:19 TL...T? strava
                      Sun 7.9 8:22 Afternoon Run strava
                        68.1 8:03  

                      5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                       

                      Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                      weatherboy80


                        Oh no Madison - sorry to hear about this.  Rest up and hopefully it heals pretty quick as others have mentioned!

                         

                        DW: I feel like I am never warmed up properly especially for the longer distance races.  Even after 2 or so miles EZ my first mile at HMP feels sluggish, but then I usually find a good rhythm.   For a marathon I've never really done more than about 1/2 mile or just lots of walking before the start.

                         

                        JT: Hope the cold resolves soon.  I guess that's really not a bad time to catch up as there is still plenty of time to get in last LR.

                         

                        JMac: Nice looking week!  Wouldn't worry too much about the 2nd quality day though and I think you pinpointed what went wrong.  Weather was probably the bigger issue more than anything.  Although, most of my mixed tempo's I usually keep the EZ miles a bit slower than what Nimmals has recommended.

                         

                        Me: Got through my first week of my initial 4 week "speed" phase where I hit some hard interval work on Wednesday and had a pretty nice LR with 20 minutes of tempo mixed in on Saturday.  Those 800's were quite difficult probably because I got out too hard on just about each rep, but the good news is I managed to stay consistent for just about all of them.   Saturday's LR I mostly kept the EZ mileage very easy which allowed me to fairly easily hit my tempo portion, but it has been a while since I did that kind of Daniels style workout.  Also wit the exception of Monday managed to keep the rest of my EZ runs pretty darn EZ (for me anyways) which I've always struggled with.  Hopefully this pays off in the coming weeks.  BTW - already less than 15 weeks to go Smile

                         

                        Weekly Summary
                        Monday, Sep 16, 2019 thru Sunday, Sep 22, 2019

                        <tfoot> </tfoot>
                        Day Miles Pace Description Link
                        Mon 11.2 7:34 Causeway repeats 🌞 strava
                        Mon 5.2 8:16 < HR strava
                        Tue 11.2 7:52 A rare nice September morning! strava
                        Wed 3.1 8:41 Muggy w/u strava
                        Wed 5.5 6:23 8 X 800i strava
                        Wed 4.4 7:31 c/d + 4 X 200's + c/d strava
                        Wed 4.5 8:24 Recovery jog strava
                        Thu 10.1 8:54 Getting lost on the trails (again) strava
                        Fri 6.3 7:37 Windy + strides strava
                        Sat 0.5 8:39 Missing from the warmup: user watch error 🙄 strava
                        Sat 16.1 7:30 8.2E + 20minT + 4.5E strava
                        Sun 6.3 8:02 A somewhat pleasant late AM run in September! strava
                          84.4 7:52    

                        5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 34:30 (11/19)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                        Nimmals


                          First thoughts are to send healing vibes to everyone from the minor cold to the stress reactions. Hope everyone recovers speedily.

                           

                          Madison, I think I agree with the concensus to skip lake front. I always err on the side of caution with anyone other than myself. I have a girl pulling out of NYC for Plantar she missed three weeks and she doesn't feel confident to pick back up. You should gather all you marbles for CIM meet me at the front of the coral and our Goal keep the ratio +3

                           

                          Darkwave That's really interesting i use my carbons  for speed and slug runs shoes don't matter. if it ain't a race I'm going slow.

                           

                          JT Reeves Kamworir was amazing. NN Racing seems to be really doing big things right now. I just got their Aeroswift singlet as a birthday gift to my self for $40 more than the retail price but hey as a NIke Fanboy it was worth it for my collection.

                           

                          JMAC I feel you on the pain either I'm doing to much or I'm an idiot. (You all better not answer that  ) Every year I ramp up my mileage I get extensor tendinitis my foot has been bothering me since middle of last week. Whenever i run 100 mile weeks, I try to add running on grass along BikePath to reduce the stress but grass is my kryptonite. I pulled my hamstring on grass and it flares up my extensor tendinitis but every time I think more runs on grass will give me longevity in the sport but injure me in the short term. Talk about a catch 22.

                           

                          Raced Cow Harbor was really hoping to have a showdown with Falmouth guy but I never showed up. My goal was to run a sub 32 and win the masters division. I did neither. The two positives were I ran a course PR and sorry ladies, but I managed to hold off the ladies few of whom often beat me. This year I managed to fight back the first female who ran up onto my shoulder at 5.5 miles I let her stay with me and then high tailed it with 400M to go. Falmouth guy ran beautifully, He went out early I didn't go with him there was a faster guy from CT who was the favorite so I played a waiting game with him thinking we would run down Falmouth but when he didn't come back in the hills.  I gave chase after passing the 2 mile mark. i realized quickly I was not making any progress or getting any help. I peeked around a corner to see CT guy charging at me I ran with him for about a mile his breathing was throwing me off like someone was murdering him in his sleep. The sound actually made me really uncomfortable so I pulled back let him lead then he started gaping me and I could do nothing. I ended up third way poorer than Id hoped. At least I ran a fast two and three mile split, I'm actually excited for a 5K. Anyway that was my race back to 100 mile weeks.

                           

                           

                          Activity Date Description  Time Distance  Elevation
                          Run  Sun, 9/22/2019  Legs were complaining about Cow Harbor so give em something else to talk about (22 miles)  2:47:10 22.01 mi  705 ft 
                          Run  Sat, 9/21/2019  Morning Run  28:09:00 3.04 mi  0 ft 
                          Race  Sat, 9/21/2019  Cow Harbor 10K Race 33:34  33:36:00 6.31 mi  187 ft 
                          Run  Sat, 9/21/2019  Morning Run  28:04:00 2.31 mi  23 ft 
                          Run  Fri, 9/20/2019  Morning Run  46:28:00 5.06 mi  95 ft 
                          Run  Thu, 9/19/2019  Morning Run  28:01:00 2.87 mi  95 ft 
                          Run  Thu, 9/19/2019  Part of Beck’s Burn Bracket. Missing 1st half mile  11:06 2.04 mi  0 ft 
                          Run  Thu, 9/19/2019  800M of Beck's Burn Bracket  2:40 0.50 mi  0 ft 
                          Run  Thu, 9/19/2019  Cool Down  32:36:00 2.35 mi  66 ft 
                          Run  Wed, 9/18/2019  Morning Run  1:33:17 11.06 mi  23 ft 
                          Run  Tue, 9/17/2019  Morning Run  1:37:42 10.22 mi  351 ft 
                          Run  Mon, 9/16/2019  Evening Run  53:56:00 6.13 mi  0 ft
                                10H 22 M 73.9 mi 1,545 ft
                          JMac11


                          Benevolent Leader

                            Weather - repeat after me: I WILL NOT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES THIS CYCLE AS I DID LAST CYCLE. You're already taking EZ days easy, which is great. Once we get to taper time, we're going to have to have a serious chat 

                             

                            Nimmals - oh man, your comment about breathing really reminded me of some horrible races. I don't know why, but I'm just liking you: people breathing inappropriately in races really throws me off my game. Usually it's guys who are breathing in and out with every step 2 miles into a half marathon, but it's also the guy who sound like they're honking a horn with each breath. Anyway, good week/race.

                             

                            Jay - looks like he strained something, not sure what the Berlin plan is, but that sucks.

                            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                              JT - I know you always love the long run, but don’t go for too long with just 2 weeks to go. Yes, you will “recover” but you do not get the full benefit of a long run for 4-6 weeks. Go for 20 if you need it, but 22 seems excessive.

                               

                              JMac: Are you sure the benefits take 4-6 weeks to show up? I agree that in 2 weeks there will not be significant training effect, but 4-6 weeks seems a bit on the long side. I seem to remember 2-3 weeks as the time it takes a given workout to manifest in improved fitness. In this case, I do it for maintenance, more preventing de-training than reaching any improved level of fitness. It would be an all easy LR, not one of those insane JD ones you and Weather do . Fitzgerald recommends a big LR 2 weeks out to maintain endurance adaptions (capillarization, some other stuff I can't remember...).

                               

                              Nice week BTW. But I will scold you just like you scolded Weather: don't overdo those JD workouts! We don't want you getting your obligatory injury mid-late training cycle!

                               

                              DW: Solid week with the 2 mile reps and the LR. Things are looking good for sub 2:55 at CIM.

                               

                              Weather: Great week. I was really happy to see a lot of your easy runs at 8-something pace! I think it will help you a lot long term to hold back on those.

                               

                              Nimmals: Great job on the 10k even if 3rd place; you can't win em all. Any chance Falmouth guy is running CIM? That would make for an epic showdown 

                              5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                              Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

                              Nimmals


                                 

                                 

                                Nimmals: Great job on the 10k even if 3rd place; you can't win em all. Any chance Falmouth guy is running CIM? That would make for an epic showdown 

                                 

                                He is running next year going for a 2:20. That's a hell of a debut. Id have to  decline a showdown. I'm lucky to not +20 on my gender lol.