2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 634 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

    A few brain droppings:

     

    1) gaining fitness from a workout is not like a light switch - off and then on.  Rather, I believe it's a continuum.  So....while it arguably might take 4 weeks to see the full benefits from a long run, I think you can still reap something from a closer one (after controlling for the need to recover).  I sense there's also a lot of individual variation in this.

     

    2) I've personally always preferred to do my last long run 4 weeks out, and then race a half 3 weeks out (as discussed before, I think the half works both as a tune-up and as a BIG lactate threshold workout).  That Runnersconnect chart seems to support my preference.

     

    3) There's a near religious belief by some that the last 20+ run should always be 3 weeks out (obviously, the RC chart contradicts that).  However, for various reasons, I've seen people run marathons 5 weeks after that last 20 and do very well.  The year of Hurricane Sandy, we had a lot of people who were planning on NYC or Marine Corps pivot to doing Richmond at the last minute, and they all ran really well there.  For myself, due to life circumstances, I had to reroute to the Hartford Marathon in 2017, which meant 5 weeks between my last 20 and the marathon.  I didn't run the race that reflected my fitness, but that was really due to a combination of weather and life stress, not because it was so long between the last long run and the race.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    Swim5599


      Yeah sorry I’m here.  Been crazy busy but haven’t missed any runs and actually got in a 35:50 10k in up in flagstaff so the fitness is there.

       

      The stuff about long runs Is interesting.  I ran 22 miles with 65 minutes at mp 2 weeks out of CIM and I suspect we will do something like that this year also.

       

      I see slammin keeps crushing races weekly.  My CIM goal is to close the second half of the race 90 secs slower then you.  Last year it was more like 2 plus minutes but that’s the goal ha

       

      everyone else keep grinding

      HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

      JMac11


      Benevolent Leader

        Swim - good to hear from you. 2 weeks out with that big of a run, especially with MP seems dicey, but to each his own. I agree with DW about the religious nature of having that 20 miler 3 weeks out, but that really is for beginners imo. If you are running 80+ MPW, I don’t see any reason to build up to your longest run that close. For example, I’ll reach 22 miles in a few weeks, and then just hold that all the way through the rest of the cycle, potentially dropping to 21 with 3 weeks to go.

         

        Me - my week is done as I moved up my long run to Saturday to give myself some more space before my 10K this upcoming weekend. My Q session on Tuesday went way better than it had last week, which I definitely credit to the lower temps. I also have noticed my E pace creeping down, which I will let it naturally do. I think I’ve been over analyzing it a bit. Will still stick to my goal this cycle which is to not let it creep down too much. My way of achieving that is to really take the recovery days slow, but let the easy days go with the flow.

         

        Did have an issue on my long run today, where I had to vomit with about 1.5 miles to go. I don’t know if anyone else has ever gotten so hungry that they feel nauseous, but this happens to me from time to time, except this time I actually threw up. I really hate taking gels on long runs because I view it as my time to train my body for fat adaptation, but obviously I will need to either eat more before these runs or carry gels on the run just in case this comes up again. First time I’ve vomited on a run since high school! But this definitely was not because of an intensity issue, just rather my stomach was also messed up from being so hungry.

         

        Three weeks in a row at 70 now, which is a big accomplishment for me. I’m one of the lower mileage guys on this thread for my past few marathons, often peaking at 70, so it’s nice to get these weeks in early. I am going up to 76 or so now for the next 3 weeks.

         

        10K this upcoming weekend: goal is to PR. I have two things working against me: no taper at all, plus the 10K will be in CP so rolling hills, but I think I should still be in shape to grab a PR. Probably right around 35:00 shape on a flat course with a taper, so I think a PR is a reasonable goal.

         

        Weekly Summary
        Monday, Sep 23, 2019 thru Sunday, Sep 29, 2019

        <tfoot> </tfoot>
        Day Miles Pace Description Link
        Mon 9.0 8:06 145 TDP after the equinox? 😡 strava
        Tue 16.3 7:25 8E + 3x2T (5:48) + 2E strava
        Wed 7.0 8:16 Morning Run strava
        Thu 8.7 8:03 Evening Run strava
        Fri 8.9 7:47 Every run should end at Shake Shack strava
        Sat 19.6 7:35 Morning Run strava
          69.5 7:46  

        5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

         

        Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)


        Yak-3 vs Spitfire

          DW - no religious discussion about running - it's just how most of the plans have it - and usually if some combination works for somebody, you usually follow that pattern. Though at some point I obviously realized that it doesn't really matter where your longest run is placed. Especially if you run consistently during the year and your average mileage is high. Just doesn't matter...

           

          JMac - you made may day Smile So, your plan is to run VERY LONG 22 miler like 6 weeks out and then to run VERY SHORT 21 miler 3 weeks out - seriously, now all finally makes sense Smile

           

          Swim - I always find it much easier to build on the previous marathon's success. You ran 2:46 last CIM, you know you can run that pace, now you will run CIM again and with similar training and knowledge of the course your confidence should be very high to beat your last year's PR.

           

          jayluf - hopefully your marathon went well - I saw there was some rain during the race but doesn't seem like it was too cold

           

          My week was pretty tough. Not a one day when my legs felt even remotely ok - they were heavy the whole week. The "epic" display of it was LT session on Wednesday when I cannot even hold 7 mpm pace. Felt terrible. Glad it happened early in the cycle - there is still hope. Today's LR was all about mileage - could not hold planned HR - everything felt so difficult. But I know that happens - just need to avoid getting injured and eventually body probably adjusts.

           

          Mon - off

          Tue - 10.2 @GA(8:21)

          Wed - 11.5 - 18mins@LT(6:50)-5mins@rec-16mins@LT(7:18)

          Thu - 13.6 @endurance (7:55)

          Fri - 5.2 @recovery (9:53)

          Sat - 11.2 @GA with 6x12sec hills and 8x100m strides

          Sun - 18.1 @endurance/GA (8:47)

           

          Total: 69.8 mi

          JMac11


          Benevolent Leader

            Cal - no, it's not that one is long and the other one isn't. The point was that you shouldn't build up to your longest run of the cycle 3 weeks before. Take a look at Pfitz, he does the same thing. Holding at 21-22 is very different than continually pushing the distance until 3 weeks prior. I was just trying to caution JT because I know he missed some mileage with sickness and was saying he shouldn't go even longer with 2 weeks to go, rather maintain his longest distance as he won't gain anything.

            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

             

            Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

              Kenny!!!!!!!!!!

              What a run by Bekele in Berlin! I was expecting another DNF from him but he delivered. 2:01:41, just 2 seconds off Kipchoge's WR. It would have been quite something if he did get the WR and help the 5000, 10,000, and marathon WRs. I watched the second half of the race, and it looks like he was in trouble at 30k, getting dropped by Legesse and Lemma. But he blasted past them both by ~35k and absolutely torched the last 5k. Anyway, if he can maintain his focus and not do anything dumb (like trying for the WR again in Dubai in January like he did after his 2016 near WR), then it should be an epic matchup between him and Kipchoge at Tokyo.

               

              Jayluf: Nice job in Berlin, looks like you enjoyed the experience!

               

              Nimmals: I assume you've been watching the World Championships? What a run by Sifan in the 10k! Closing in a 4:17 suggests she could get the WR in the 10k if she wanted to.

               

              Swim: Thanks for checking in; sounds like your training is going well. A 35:50 at altitude sounds really strong to me!

               

              JMac: Really nice week; that 3 x 2 looks great. That's weird that you threw up because you were hungry...if there was anything to throw up you must have eaten relatively close in time to your run, otherwise it should just be a dry heave. Are you sure it wasn't just something you ate disagreeing with you?

               

              Cal: Nice job to stick with the plan, even if the paces weren't quite what you want. I agree the goal at this stage is just to stay uninjured and your body will adjust eventually to the training.

               

              I took 2 days completely off to help get over a bad cold/cough. I was coughing so hard my abs are still sore from it. Fortunately the cough and most of the cold are gone now. I felt pretty good on my last long run today. Now the taper officially begins!

               

              Weekly Summary
              Monday, Sep 23, 2019 thru Sunday, Sep 29, 2019

              <tfoot> </tfoot>
              Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
              Tue 10.1 8:38 Morning Run 580 strava
              Fri 12.2 7:44 Morning Run w/ 2 x 1 mile 674 strava
              Sat 8.3 9:22 Trails in Sega Park 643 strava
              Sun 22.1 7:31 Long run 1044 strava
                52.7 8:04   2941  

              5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

              Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

              Swim5599


                Kenny!!!!!!!!!!

                What a run by Bekele in Berlin! I was expecting another DNF from him but he delivered. 2:01:41, just 2 seconds off Kipchoge's WR. It would have been quite something if he did get the WR and help the 5000, 10,000, and marathon WRs. I watched the second half of the race, and it looks like he was in trouble at 30k, getting dropped by Legesse and Lemma. But he blasted past them both by ~35k and absolutely torched the last 5k. Anyway, if he can maintain his focus and not do anything dumb (like trying for the WR again in Doha in January like he did after his 2016 near WR), then it should be an epic matchup between him and Kipchoge at Tokyo.

                 

                Jayluf: Nice job in Berlin, looks like you enjoyed the experience!

                 

                Nimmals: I assume you've been watching the World Championships? What a run by Sifan in the 10k! Closing in a 4:17 suggests she could get the WR in the 10k if she wanted to.

                 

                Swim: Thanks for checking in; sounds like your training is going well. A 35:50 at altitude sounds really strong to me!

                 

                JMac: Really nice week; that 3 x 2 looks great. That's weird that you threw up because you were hungry...if there was anything to throw up you must have eaten relatively close in time to your run, otherwise it should just be a dry heave. Are you sure it wasn't just something you ate disagreeing with you?

                 

                I took 2 days completely off to help get over a bad cold/cough. I was coughing so hard my abs are still sore from it. Fortunately the cough and most of the cold are gone now. I felt pretty good on my last long run today. Now the taper officially begins!

                 

                Weekly Summary
                Monday, Sep 23, 2019 thru Sunday, Sep 29, 2019

                Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
                Tue 10.1 8:38 Morning Run 580 strava
                Fri 12.2 7:44 Morning Run w/ 2 x 1 mile 674 strava
                Sat 8.3 9:22 Trails in Sega Park 643 strava
                Sun 22.1 7:31 Long run 1044 strava

                Bekele is so special.  I mean he’s the greatest ever on the track and it’s not close.  He’s miles ahead of anyone on the grass and slop.  I’ve been waiting for that one for awhile.  He looked absolutely phenomenal the last 5k.  If we ever get a legit showdown between those two it’s going to be ridiculous

                HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                darkwave


                Mother of Cats

                  Jmac - have definitely experienced that nausea feeling, though I've never thrown up.

                   

                  Interesting that you don't carry gels on your long runs.  I actually intentionally carry the same # of gels on my long runs as I do for a marathon.  No, I don't take them all - I just use it as a test run for being comfortable carrying them all (I also use the same shorts that I'll use on race day).

                   

                  Calbears - sorry to bring religion into the discussion Big grin.  I do disagree slightly on the idea that it doesn't matter at all where the long run is.  The long run definitely can be too close to your race, or too far.  It's just that there's a lot more range than some realize.

                   

                  Swim - add me to the list that wouldn't do something that hard two weeks out.  But....we're all different.  Congrats on the 10K!

                   

                  Cinnamon - congrats on the spontaneous half!

                   

                  Also....is there really that much difference between 20, 21, and 22 miles?  I like doing 21 just because I'm supposed to split the run into 3rds, and 21 makes for easy math.  But I really don't feel like it makes that much difference otherwise.

                   

                  My week:

                  60 miles, 30 "miles" (aka 5 hours) of pool-running, and 1000 yards of swimming
                  M: Upper body weights/core, and 12 "miles" of pool-running.
                  T: 7.5 miles very easy (8:58), yoga, and then 5 miles very easy (8:41) plus drills/strides
                  W: 14 miles, including an 8K tempo on the track in 32:02, with 1600 splits of 6:28/6:24/6:29/6:25/6:16). Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                  Th: Upper body weights/core, and 12 "miles" of pool-running.
                  F: 8 miles very easy (9:01), yoga, then 4.5 miles very easy (8:26) plus drills and strides.
                  Sa: 21 miles progressive, split as first 7 averaging 8:44, next 7 averaging 7:36, last 7 averaging 6:51. Followed with injury prevention work and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                  Su: yoga and 6 "miles" pool-running.

                   

                  A lot of my mileage ended up in the pool this week simply because that's how things worked out.  I'm worrying less about the actual mileage in a week, and more about hitting the proper balance of stress and recovery.

                   

                  Only two workouts this week, but I was happy with both of them.  The long run ended up in unseasonably humid conditions (temp 73, DP 68 by the end) so the proper effort meant I ran a bit slower than goal pace for the last 7 miles.  Would be nice if fall would get here.

                  Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                   

                  And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    Bekele is so special.  I mean he’s the greatest ever on the track and it’s not close.  He’s miles ahead of anyone on the grass and slop.  I’ve been waiting for that one for awhile.  He looked absolutely phenomenal the last 5k.  If we ever get a legit showdown between those two it’s going to be ridiculous

                     

                    I agree Swim. He already was a legend on the track and world XC, he just had to put the road/marathon piece together. Geb still is my fav between the two; he had multiple WRs in all 3 events (plus a lot of others...) and Geb is just so damn likable. But it's hard now to argue against Kenny being the all-around distance GOAT; if he gets the marathon WR and/or Olympic Gold it's case closed.

                    5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                    Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                       

                      I agree Swim. He already was a legend on the track and world XC, he just had to put the road/marathon piece together. Geb still is my fav between the two; he had multiple WRs in all 3 events (plus a lot of others...) and Geb is just so damn likable. But it's hard now to argue against Kenny being the all-around distance GOAT; if he gets the marathon WR and/or Olympic Gold it's case closed.

                       

                      I think that in the battle of Kipchoge versus Bekele at the marathon distance, Kipchoge wins.  Bekele has marginally more talent, but Kipchoge is just mentally cooler and tougher.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      Swim5599


                         

                        I think that in the battle of Kipchoge versus Bekele at the marathon distance, Kipchoge wins.  Bekele has marginally more talent, but Kipchoge is just mentally cooler and tougher.

                        I’m about as big a Kipchoge fan as their is, but I would say the talent difference is a little more then marginal. Bekele has him by 20 plus seconds in the 5000 and over 30 in the 10,000 and they are essentially dead even on record eligible marathon courses.  If we are giving kipchoge credit for being unbeatable in the marathon then ok.  Bekele gets flack because he’s DNF d races and I guess I get that, but that dudes pedigree and career are unreal.

                        HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                          I’m about as big a Kipchoge fan as their is, but I would say the talent difference is a little more then marginal. Bekele has him by 20 plus seconds in the 5000 and over 30 in the 10,000 and they are essentially dead even on record eligible marathon courses.  If we are giving kipchoge credit for being unbeatable in the marathon then ok.  Bekele gets flack because he’s DNF d races and I guess I get that, but that dudes pedigree and career are unreal.

                           

                          I agree that Bekele has outrun Kipchoge at the shorter distances.  But...at the marathon distance I think the talent gap is very slight - far less than it is at the shorter distances.

                           

                          And then, I think that when faced with the mental challenge of head to head competition; dueling back and forth, Kipchoge wins.  I've seen Beklele crumble; I've never seen Kipchoge act anything less than serene.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            If I had to bet on Kipchoge vs Kenny in the marathon, I would definitely bet Kipchoge. He has incredible consistency and the calm confidence that comes from winning all but one of his marathons. Kenny has had 2 really good ones; Berlin 2016 and 2019. Those were both whoppers but few and far between. If he can stay focused, keep the extra weight off, and go into Tokyo healthy, it could be a great race. But Kenny's history suggests that will not happen. I almost think he wants the WR more than an Olympic gold and won't be surprised to see him race another one way too soon, fall short, get injured, or something that will put him off track for Tokyo. I hope I'm wrong on that; I really want to see that showdown in Tokyo.

                            5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                            Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)

                            Swim5599


                              If I had to bet on Kipchoge vs Kenny in the marathon, I would definitely bet Kipchoge. He has incredible consistency and the calm confidence that comes from winning all but one of his marathons. Kenny has had 2 really good ones; Berlin 2016 and 2019. Those were both whoppers but few and far between. If he can stay focused, keep the extra weight off, and go into Tokyo healthy, it could be a great race. But Kenny's history suggests that will not happen. I almost think he wants the WR more than an Olympic gold and won't be surprised to see him race another one way too soon, fall short, get injured, or something that will put him off track for Tokyo. I hope I'm wrong on that; I really want to see that showdown in Tokyo.

                              If I was this late in my career and had multiple Olympic gold medals I’d probably want the marathon WR more also.  Would love to see them throw down though.

                              HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                                BTW, anyone notice Kenny is sponsored by Nike now (I think he was Adidas for most his career) and was wearing... you guessed it, VFs.

                                5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                                Up next: Athens OH Marathon (April 19)