Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
RIP Milkman
DW - great race report as usual. I'm honestly shocked that you wanted to go out at marathon pace in a half marathon. I'm not going to argue with you on a style, because you clearly are one of the most accomplished people on this board, but I can't imagine that running your first two miles approximately 25 seconds behind pace in a half marathon is the best approach. I think even in a marathon, 25 seconds slow might be a touch too much (10-15 seems to be a sweet spot, especially if you haven't warmed up). I find in my most successful half marathons I need to be 5 seconds behind pace to do well in that first mile, and then close to pace in the second mile. Anything 10+ is not going to go well, unless I've had absolutely zero warm up due to the zoo that is known as NYRR races.
I'm not sure this would have made much of a difference in the final number, but just some food for thought, especially since you've said you've underperformed all 3 halfs you've run this year. I think you need to go out harder and just hold on for dear life. A half marathon is much closer to a 5K in style than a marathon in my opinion. I believe you've even mentioned that you have this issue in 5Ks as well, where you just need to learn to push harder earlier on.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Mother of Cats
I think we need to respectfully disagree here (and I do mean _respectfully_, since I think you raise a good point)
First of all, I think the previous two races this year are bad data points. The first, Shamrock, was where I had to pull off the course to take a bathroom break and then was cramping all the way in. So...not a good measure of anythng.
(also worth noting that in that race two of my teammates also stuck with me for the first miles - running 6:44 and 6:35 for the first 2 miles. They hung with me until my bathroom stop and then picked it up, running PRs of 83:51 and 84:22.)
The second race this year was Grandma's, which I think was due to be being on the Mesalamine.
I don't think going out harder in any of these three races would have resulted in a faster time.
My best longer races have always involved negative splits and easing into pace. At Broad Street, I went out on 6:26 and 6:20 before averaging 6:15 for the race. In my previous PR at Richmond Half, I went out at 6:43 pace for the first two miles and then averaged 6:27 for the race.
And...I've also done it the other way, and the results have turned out far more disappointing than this race. For example, here's Shamrock 2015. Pretty much even splits on a pancake flat course, and a frustrating underperformance at the time (though a PR).
My coach preaches the religion of the hard negative split, and strongly advocates that it is by far the best way to execute any race longer than 800m. I don't go quite that far - I believe different runners have different profiles, and some run much better off of starting off at pace. But...for myself, I've tried it both ways, and easing into pace and then building, with a hard kick at the end, consistently works best for me.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Stotan Disciple
JTReeves if you need some help for your next marathon PM me.
Darkwave Ooops my comment was before seeing your race report. Hang in there still a great effort. those last 3 miles looked tough. Still need to read the race report.
JMAC I'm going to sit Suffolk out. I may pace one of my girls she's been having the most amazing workouts but not putting races together. I have to see whats up with her see run see if I can solve her issue. Or if i can get her a PR or at least a seasons best.
btw- I have two guys to run with you not sure they're in 1:15 shape the one guy has run 1:19 the other guy used to be really fast but got hurt been training well recently they're both working out with me I'm coaching them and the one kid I'm sure can run mid 1:16 his issue is going out fast if you get him to run with you he will be there till 12.5. I have a brand new pair of flyknit vaporflys if I give them to him he may give you a run for the money. Frankie has run 1:12 or 1:13 he will go out slow but he is really smart races like me thinks like me and has been training with me for years.
~60 mile week stll feeling like crap and under the weather foot feels much better but someone stole my vaporfly shoes from by the car at the race. I change to cool down left them on the trunk sill and theyre gone. Luckily the guy I coached at Chicago gave me a Nike giftcard for getting him to hit his lifelong goal. We will be working on his MooseMug (2:51) for Boston or some other spring race.
Ran 15:49.7 or 15:50 rounded up I knew from Boston 5K I was in that shape just needed the motivation.
Last year I got beat by a young kid he ran across the grass to cut a tangent opened up a gap played keep away.
Mini Race report below.
Did a two mile warmup with my group and then went to start line. This race I've won several time this is a race where you don't want to be 2nd or third you get screwed. The prize is a membership to my gym which is an $800 cash value so people are walking around offering $300 and up for the gift card. I go to the gym so these days I keep mine. In the past I would sell them for $250 qwik cash to close friends. Basically you want to win or come 4th as 1st in 10 year age groups also get gift cards. Ive seen people stop and tie laces or count runners to make sure they're not 2nd or 3rd. Last year I was 2nd still got a gift card. But I was pissed off at how I got beat. Kid ran across someones yard to open a gap on me.
Post Office 5K
Anyway race goes off and immediately kids are out like cruise missiles I get on a 5:20 pace and settle in the kid I know will watch me so he pulls beside me. I go through the first turn and we are 200Ms in all the cruise missiles fall off like duds its now Paolo the Kid, RonJ and I. Ron is out of his league but he still takes to the front and sets the pace I let him. I'm tired trying to teach people who don't learn. We hit the Main street and are no half way in mile 1, I decided to pepper the kid. So I take lead from RonJ and pick the pace up, Ron falls off like an empty booster rocket. Im now flying the shuttle and i plant to dump my cargo in the void of mile 2-3.
We are now hurtling through space at about 4:45/mi.
We go through first mile in about 5:07 and I fire my Vernier rockets and glide to a smooth pace which causes me to ease up he catches up to me and he says you're doing a workout. I said yes. he said a Fartlek. I say yes. He says oh? He is Italian his name is Fire in Italian so I yell Andiamo and turn on the pace my main rocket ignites and we are off again. We are running 4:30 I hold it for a few seconds and he catches me and is about to go my me I yell finito. Inside I'm cracking the fuck up Kid is letting me control the race. He coaches at St. John the Baptist the whole schools out cheering for him. I'm like this guy boast about his win last year now 5 times as many students. I throw some more surges and pull back. We hit the two mile mark at 10:29 Although the clock says 11:30. I yell to him "Fartlek's over." at once he takes the lead and starts to pepper me but I realize he has no quick step also when I surge, I surge 20-30 steps his surges never last more than 3-5 steps so I'm like ok. I test the theory again by catching him to se how he reacts. same thing i do it again. Same... holy moly its my race to lose. I decided to play possum. So I let him surge and gives him a 10m lead and he runs ahead he keeps turning to look at me and ask me questions and directions I'm like "dude you live on the water, I'm North of Sunrise". JMAC gets that. We make a right turn and he is still unsure he asks if its another right I said no straight. I toy with the idea of making him go the wrong way but I want to beat him fair and square. as a last resort if i can close the gap I'll at least do what he did and cut the lawn but I stay fair. I help him he is asking me a million questions so I stop answering we are at 2.5 miles and he now knows where he is now. Now we are about to make the last two turns. I look at my watch we are at 2.85 where he cut the lawn last year and I said "no lawn tangents" We speed around the corner and he surges, I cover the surge and get right on him. I'm not playing "keep away" as it was his same old strategy the year before it worked because in 2018 I ran an XC 8k at 7:30 AM then the 5k at 10:00AM.
Today, I'm fresh no back 2 back races because I'm out for revenge. Make the final turn and his kids are there en masse screaming "Coach Paolo" he goes for his final kick I count his surge steps wait until his 5th and then I hit mine. I do my famous quick step and I'm gone 10m become 20m then 30m then 40m then 50m. I hold full throttle for 20 seconds when I'm 50 M from the finish line I relax and cruise its still in the 40's oh shit pick it up I try but its right there . I finish 12 seconds ahead with 200m to go. I run 15:49 he runs 16:02 and I get a 4:51 last miles with a ~32 second .1. I'm a ecstatic.
He promised the membership to someone for $500 he curses me and congratulates me begging me to sell him my membership. I said no but I later hook him up with one of my athletes who won their age group. He buys the membership for $250 to sell at work for $500 the bastard still capilatlized off me indirectly in the end.
My athletes all have Huge PRs. Except the one I will pace for the half. We get lots of compliments on our race kits.
Thinking should be done first, before training begins.
DW - Except for my 4 minute blow up at Boston this year (expected with the weather), I've negative split all of my PRs, so I totally understand that desire. We know every WR (the real ones, and the fake 1:59 ones) are run with negative splits. But I was just arguing whether you can negative split too much, and I had felt that marathon pace in a half marathon for 2 miles is too much. So maybe my phrasing it "just hang on" isn't right, but rather that marathon pace is too slow for a half. For example, we would all agree marathon pace is too slow for the first mile in a 5K, right? I think it's true for a half as well. I feel my best executed halfs look like this:
1st 5K - 15 seconds off pace
2nd 5K - On pace
3rd 5K - 10 seconds ahead of pace
4th 5K - 15 seconds ahead of pace
Total - 10 second negative split
Nimmals - I always love your race reports, you take so much pleasure out of beating the young folks! Great work out there as always. I cannot believe that guy could talk that much in a 5K if that was his max pace: I'm out of breath by 1.5 miles!
I'm glad there will be at least a few guys near me. I don't necessarily need someone running sub 1:16 (although it would be nice to have someone to chase after), but I would like at least a group of guys who can run something like 1:17 or 1:18. I do like people that go out too fast, that's my bread and butter for motivation
Nimmals - that was entertaining. Like Jmac, I just don't understand how there could be that much talking in a 5K, especially the second half.
And...really sucks bout the VFs getting stolen. People really suck.
splits. But I was just arguing whether you can negative split too much, and I had felt that marathon pace in a half marathon for 2 miles is too much. So maybe my phrasing it "just hang on" isn't right, but rather that marathon pace is too slow for a half. For example, we would all agree marathon pace is too slow for the first mile in a 5K, right? I think it's true for a half as well. I feel my best executed halfs look like this: 1st 5K - 15 seconds off pace 2nd 5K - On pace 3rd 5K - 10 seconds ahead of pace 4th 5K - 15 seconds ahead of pace Total - 10 second negative split
splits. But I was just arguing whether you can negative split too much, and I had felt that marathon pace in a half marathon for 2 miles is too much. So maybe my phrasing it "just hang on" isn't right, but rather that marathon pace is too slow for a half. For example, we would all agree marathon pace is too slow for the first mile in a 5K, right? I think it's true for a half as well. I feel my best executed halfs look like this:
Jmac - I was first going to comment that we might not be that much different - to me the difference between MP and HMP is about 20 seconds, and I thought you were saying you went out the first 5K at 15 seconds per mile slower. And then I realized that it was 15 seconds total over 5K, so about 5 seconds a mile slower.... So yeah, not so close at all.
I am quite confident that if I had gone out at 6:25 -6:30 ish in yesterday's half, I would have crumpled. Especially since the first mile was uphill. I just really need to ease into stuff, even when warmed up. Probably for the same reason I need a much longer warm-up than many others. Probably for the same reason that I find it easier to do an active float between marathon pace segments than to slow down to easy pace and then jump back up to MP.
Also, as a side note, dumping last week off for posterity. I cut and pasted from the 3:20 thread, and some highlighting got carried over that I'm too lazy to fix.
52 miles, 9 "miles" of pool-running, and 500 yards of swimmingM: 6 miles very easy (9:10), yoga, 3 miles very easy (8:39), drills/strides, and 3 "miles" of pool-running.T: 11 miles, including a track workout of 2x1600, 2x800 in 6:12, 6:08, 2:56, 2:55,. Recoveries were 4:35/4:45 after the 1600s, 2:30 between 800s. Followed with injury prevention work and 500 yards recovery swimming.W: 7 miles very easy (9:02), core, and DIY yoga.Th: Light upper body weights/core, DIY yoga, and 6 "miles" pool-runningF: 7 miles, including 1 mile up-tempo (6:09) and DIY yoga.Sa: 2 miles very easy (9:06) and DIY yoga.Su: just under 3 miles warm-up, and then Columbus Half-Marathon in 84:08 (6:26 pace)
Nimmals: I really enjoyed that race report, congrats on the blazing time and the victory! Also thanks for offering to help; I assume you mean with coaching? I'm probably not a good fit to be coached; too set in my ways and too convinced I know what kind of training I need to do. I think I don't need to do anything different, just need my crotch, immune system, and Mother Nature to all cooperate on race day Getting a CT scan tomorrow so I will find out if this is another hernia or not. It might be a muscle strain but it seems like a hernia based on my previous ones.
Mikkey: Thanks for the kind words; I will hang in there and try to be patient. Will give it another go in the spring.
2:52:16 (2018)
JTReeves: I'm bummed. I hope you get news tomorrow that is positive and you start feeling better! I haven't kept up recently but I looked for the posts on Hartford - you didn't talk much about it - there are positives/things learned that one can take from every race.
Slammin: well done on a tough course in Boston. That's so cool you're able to impact so many others lives through running.
Mikkey: Berlin registration deadline is fast approaching! You in?
Jayluf: I may not have seen it - but did you post your opinions on Berlin? Was it stupid ridiculous crowded? Or anything else stupid ridiculous? I would appreciate hearing any thoughts.
JMac: I love the drama!! I hope it's all cleared and you're good to go! If it's not, I wouldn't do it.
So life is settling and there's some resemblance of consistency in my running. However I only wanted one SRD but it turned into two Once I get my treadmill back together there will be no excuse!
M: 15 min w/u, 6 x 800m (3:02, 3:02, 3:02, 3:00, 2:58, 2:58) with 60 sec rec, 15 min c/d T: 80 min (8:01) W: 0 T: 2 hr 10 min (8:08) F: 0 S: 100 min (7:45) S: 60 min (8:42)
Cinnamon! Good to see you as usual! Also, every time I read your name I think of Neil Young. Is that where you got the handle from?
JT - ha we’re all stubborn on this board. I hope the CT scan goes well. How many hernias have you had??
DW - I totally get it, and you’re right, it may not have worked yesterday anyway. Was just more food for thought around what the right negative split is. I always like have these discussions/light debates with you
Nimmals - I missed the part about the VF on the first read through, sorry to hear about that. As DW said, people suck.
JMac - I first saw him in concert when I was 19. 25 years later I was 2nd row with my kids for his concert at Carnegie Hall in 2014. So yes. But I have Type O Negative's cover on my ipod for a more badassery vibe.
JMac: I've had 2 so far; this would be #3 and hopefully the last one....
Cinnamon: Thanks; I was pretty depressed about things post-race but am in a much better mindset now. Nice looking week! Your Neil Young experience is similar to mine with Iron Maiden: they were the first concert I saw at 17 years old, and I saw them again this past August (27 years later) with my son; he is 15 and it was his first concert.
DW: great race report as always and congrats on a great effort. Up until about 2 years ago I use to start my halfs much closer to my marathon pace since I could never feel like I was warmed up enough to be able to sustain half pace. I still ran a PR with this method, but more recently I've tried to start my races more aggressive, sometimes to a fault though. For me even half pace never entirely feels turly comfortable though. I would love to be able to negative split a longer race, like I have for my 5K PR, but I fault my weather here more than anything. Also solid looking week!
Nimmals: congrats on yet another blazing result! Enjoyed your report as well!
JMac: hope your foot is behaving after your monster LR!
Welcome back Cinnamon!
JT: Hope you are doing okay? Looks like you have been getting in some active recovery!
Is the strava weekly appsot not working for anyone else? Anyways, built my volume to 86 miles last week and had 2 solid workouts after about 10 days of mostly EZ running with my sore upper hamstring. I will say that it is much improved, but can still feel it after hard bouts and any speed faster than say threshold pace. Therefore, don't think I'll be hitting any interval pace or faster, other than strides, for the rest of my cycle. First Q day was on Wednesday where I used the local bridge for 6 X 1 threshold repeats (both up and down included) and the second was on Saturday where I ran a 5k, 2, 1 threshold workout after warming up for 8 miles. Downside is our summer is still basically in full force so these threshold efforts are really pushing the HR past where they should be, but I guess I should be pleased that I'm still hitting them for the most part. Hoping to run my first sustained 10 miles at marathon pace (effort) in a workout tomorrow , but may need to break it into 2 X 5 miles with the continued heat and humidity.
Monday: 12EZ AM, 6 EZ PM
Tues: 10EZ w/ strides
Wed: 3.6E + 6 X 1T + 2.5 c/d, 4.2 EZ PM
Thurs: 9.1 EZ
Fri: 7.2 EZ w/ strides
Sat: 8E + 5K@T, 2@T, 1@T, 5E for 19+
Sun: 5.3 EZ
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
Mmmm Bop
I thought we were going for 2021 to give JT a chance to find a qualifying course and time? Otoh that would mean that I need to run another Sub 2:55. 😁. We’ve got until the 31st October to register. And welcome back!
Slammin - That was a very exciting race report! Congrats! 👍
Darkware - Great job on getting another PR and I’m sure you’ll get under 1:24 next time! I unintentionally ran a marathon watchless in 2015 (I forgot to charge up my Garmin and it died within a couple of miles) It wasn’t too bad an experience and ended up with a respectable time.
My training hasn’t been up to much and averaging about 30mpw. I’ve had this weird heel pain for the last couple of months which comes and goes. I can press on the exact spot and guessing it’s bursitis, although there isn’t any swelling or redness. Luckily I’m not training for a marathon and can afford to take a bit of time off if needed. I might need to consult Dr JMac.
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Jmac- I really do love to race the young kids especially the kick. I’m really proud of the fact I can run a 200m something most distance kids can't phantom but was a stable of any decent 800m runner. 200s were our bread and butter the way quarters are to milers. Thanks about the shoes already picking up a pair at lunch today.
Darkwave- I am not sure why he was asking so many questions. Last year we pretty much jog two miles sprinted the last mile. He said I should have gone over my strategy with him. He also said I have a unique way at forcing the finish of every race due to how smart my tactics are???? Yeah people suck. I may go back to the Post Office Restaurant see if someone thought they were abandoned.
JTReeves- I hope the scans come back clear. As for help, No worries, I know the type, that why I mostly coach women.
Cinnamongirl- Such a pleasure to see you, I love that word consistency it’s such a misunderstood concept in the running community.
Weather- Thank you. Looks like you also had an amazing week of running @ 86 miles.
Mikkey- Thank you. And I’m in for Berlin and London 2020.
. He said I should have gone over my strategy with him. He also said I have a unique way at forcing the finish of every race due to how smart my tactics are????
Da heck? When he played team sports did he expect the other side to share their playbook with him?
Since we're talking first concerts, I'll fess up that mine was Aerosmith with Skid Row as an opener. That one is mostly respectable. However, my second concert ever was Poison/Slaughter/Bulletboys….
Jmac - no problem whatsoever - I enjoy these conversations as well. Isn't that why we're all here? I'd much rather discuss and debate, with differing opinions, then post to just a chorus of "great job/you so special."
Additionally, I train with a group that has a certain philosophy when it comes to racing strategy ("start slow/finish fast" is the team slogan) and other aspects of training, and so participating here gets me outside of my bubble.
Mikkey/Weather - good luck with the heel and the hammy. Weather - I can't believe you're still dealing with this weather. Though I guess it makes sense, since it just eased for us in the last few weeks.
Cinnamon - welcome back (again). Nice 800s with the short recovery.JTReeves -I'm hoping for a result from the CT scan that is both good and useful for you.