Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
RIP Milkman
This is one of those where you need to test them out on the track yourself. Everyone will be different. I hate turning in the VF, but those have been generally sharp turns. I'm not sure what they feel like around a gentle 100m turn.
Andres - I posted over on Strava a little late, somehow I missed your half on my feed. YOU SHOULD STICK AROUND HERE AND POST MORE OFTEN! You're now in full training and it would be great to hear from you.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Jmac: I mean I love Daniels, but I wonder why he puts in the option in the 2Q program of either T or M miles in several of these blocks? For example at week 8 in the 2nd edition of the 71-85 mile training plan he states to run either 1E + 3T + 10E + 3T +1E OR 4E + 13M + 1E. Those are very different! He states understand the purpose of every workout, but then gives you the option to either train lactate or simple get in a LR with lots of sub lactate aerobic stimulus at M pace. Makes no sense to me here? I know you have done something like 10M and another 12M so far?
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
Mmmm Bop
Mikkey: you still running that 10k in Nov that's listed on page 1? What tune-up marathon are you going to run in 2020?
Probably not as I haven’t been able to train properly for it with the heel playing up. I ran the Thames Meander marathon a couple of times (a flat trail race along the Thames) as a “tune-up”marathon 😁 which is on the first week of March, but I can enter on the day if I fancy it again. I stopping pacing at the Brighton marathon as there was a bit of a fall out between the pace organiser and one of the sponsors. Probably for the best as it was a bit of a distraction!
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
Mikkey - I see that. Strava can be great to get better detail about individual runs/workouts, but is harder to see an entire week together and get a sense of someone's progression. Or at least it's not as easy as when someone lays it out and describes it. I'll likely come back now that I feel better about actually training for a marathon. First time I've felt good about it in a long while!
Cal - I'm glad you have some motivation to stay consistent beyond your annual CIM push! It's going to be exciting seeing you two go at it in the build up. I wouldn't say I had almost no training leading up to that half. I only got in two workouts (plus one failed one) because I wanted to wait until it cooled off a bit. Summer lasted through the beginning of October here. But my mileage has been as steady as it's been in a long time. Something like 10 weeks going from low 50s to 60 per week. And I've had plenty of decent half races lead to blowup marathons. I'm not the marathon machine that you are!
JMac - no worries on missing the half! Understandable after your epic race Sunday. I second what darkwave said: Don't get greedy! Even the last bump up in mileage can have some risk. I'd scratch that even, unless you really take it chill with the workouts. I'm in awe that you're back to normal so quickly after your half, and hitting normal mileage this week. I'm totally wrecked for some reason after mine, and won't be able to return to my average weekly mileage just yet, even taking the runs all easy. And I wasn't able to choose the pain like you did at the end! It's got to be you doing a lot of your faster running on the CP hills. That's huge.
Upcoming races: Boston
Weather - good question! I view his T or M workouts as an option because he knows some people need more M work than others. I actually recently bought his second edition (yes I'm a Daniels nerd) just to see what was in there since I know a lot of people reference it. In there, he has a table that adjusts T work based upon distance, i.e. what pace would you have to run for 60 minutes that is equivalent to T for 20 minutes? In there, he points to something like 10 miles at M being close to a 20 minute T workout, therefore although they're not exactly the same, they're similar.
Personally, I think getting in the T work is much more important than M work for many reasons. I only need M work in order to remember what it feels like to push that hard at a certain pace. As long as I'm getting some tune up races in, I only like doing 3 M pace runs in my entire buildup: 10M, 12M, and 14M. After that, I pick the T work.
I personally am doing the 3T + 10E + 3T workout next week
Andres - with no workouts now I understand why you couldn't get that sub 1:20. You're gonna see huge gains with even 4 weeks of workouts. I find I don't need a lot to feel sharpened and you should as well.
Regarding my recovery from the half, I'm finding it MUCH easier at this higher mileage. My NYC Half in March, I couldn't walk for 3 days. This one, I was just a little sore the next day and that's it. One of those things where the more you run, the less sore you get from races. Plus, the big workouts definitely help teaching me how to recover quickly. But I'm still taking my easy days as easy as I need to recover, it's been my biggest learning so far.
Jmac: Makes sense and similar to what I was actually thinking. No mater what with the heat that I am currently dealing even a long duration M run is going to push me into tempo range even if I tell myself that I'm keeping the effort in check. And yes here is the table you referenced Again not sure why he removed it!
https://minneapolisrunning.com/benefits-of-threshold-workouts/
Thinking of putting in a longer M (12 miles) effort this weekend and when it cools off a bit more doing some more of the mixed TLT runs that get you ready for those later miles come race day.
Andres: congrats again on your race! Glad to see you back at it
Weather - I think those long M runs are actually good for heat, but you have to bring water somehow. Running 12 miles straight at M pace without stopping for water is a disaster. I like using those runs to practice as if I'm actually in a race: I'll bring 2 tiny water bottles for my running belt, plus 2 gels. Gives the stomach some good practice.
Oh definitely: I'll more than likely have to break even these M efforts it into 2 or 3 segments if this heat continues and since I hate hand carrying fluids. I've done it that way several times where I drop fluids and quickly drink every 4-6 miles. Idea is to keep the rest as short as possible (so the HR doesn't come down too much), but I'd rather be alive at the end!
I actually hate hand carrying fluids too, but I have a FlipBelt for run commuting (to carry my phone and ID), and I bought these 6 oz water bottles to put in there.
They fit so snugly it doesn't feel like you're carrying water at all, i.e. they don't bounce around at all.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01ESTP0JY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Problem Child
Personally, I think getting in the T work is much more important than M work for many reasons. I only need M work in order to remember what it feels like to push that hard at a certain pace. As long as I'm getting some tune up races in, I only like doing 3 M pace runs in my entire buildup: 10M, 12M, and 14M. After that, I pick the T work. I personally am doing the 3T + 10E + 3T workout next week Regarding my recovery from the half, I'm finding it MUCH easier at this higher mileage. My NYC Half in March, I couldn't walk for 3 days. This one, I was just a little sore the next day and that's it. One of those things where the more you run, the less sore you get from races. Plus, the big workouts definitely help teaching me how to recover quickly. But I'm still taking my easy days as easy as I need to recover, it's been my biggest learning so far.
Question: Aren't your races typically a T effort? If you're doing a good number of races wouldn't that be about the same as doing T runs according to the JD plan, or have you just learned it works well for you? I'd imagine it's building that lactate threshold and helping the body learn to deal with lactate vs. running at marathon pace. Glad you're feeling good after the race. It's been interesting watching this cycle and hearing it's going well for you.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
Brew - Yes races are certainly good T efforts, but a) they often are more difficult than that and b) they can take time to recover from. I personally don’t like racing too often in a cycle. I will generally only do it twice: a shorter distance race earlier in the cycle, and then a half marathon later in the cycle. I feel that those two opportunities keep the rust from building and also allow me to chase shorter PRs. However, if you’re racing more often, you’re either going to have to mini-taper into it, which hurts the broader training, or race through your training, which leaves you either vulnerable for injury or short on potential time. I don’t like going to either of those wells too frequently.
Jmac I did not consider the duration of a race vs a workout and completely ignored the recovery after. Plus aiming for PRs vs using them as another opportunity for race day training changes things. I think this will be the first time I’ve raced during a marathon cycle in three or four years and it’s coming on the same day of my final workout. 10 miles before a final 3 mile tempo run? OOF! I bet that builds some mental strength.
Question for folks who have run CIM before:
I know the course isn't dead flat, and it's been mentioned (I think by Cal?) that you need to be ready for it as it's not straightforward. I was looking at the elevation map, and it seems like there isn't a single gain 50 feet or higher. Looks like most are in the 20-30 feet range, which really is just a small roller.
What did you guys think when running it? As long as you don't live in Florida or somewhere else pancake flat, I assume there's not much to it, right?
I'm so proud of you for not calling them hills
3,000m: 9:07.7 (Nov-21) | 5,000m: 15:39 (Dec-19) | 10,000m: 32:34 (Mar-20)
10km: 33:15 (Sep-19) | HM: 1:09:41 (May-21)* | FM: 2:41:41 (Oct-20)
* Net downhill course
Last race: Waterfront HM, 7 Apr, 1:15:48
Up next: Runway5, 4 May
"CONSISTENCY IS KING"
Do you find the Next% easier on your calves? I ask because I've had no issue with them, but I know several people who have noted calf tightness or other issues after running fast in the VF4% or Next%.
I find the Next%'s much easier on the calves than traditional flats. I've raced 10k's and had practically no soreness at all the next day; the one HM I raced in them my calves were fine although my quads and hamstrings were pretty fatigued for 3-4 days afterwards.
With the relatively high drop in the VF's I would've thought the likelihood of calf / achilles tightness would be significantly reduced.