2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 634 times)

Andres1045


     

    Cal/Mikkey - If you aren't running in the VF at this point, you're just a stubborn fool. We spend so much money on entry fees, so much TIME on trying to gain a few seconds here and there, when the VF is just sitting right there for the taking. Cal, once you buy a pair, you'll wonder what took you so long. 

    I'm debating whether to wear the VF's. I have the 4%'s, and have run in them twice.  Once in a ten mile race in April, and then again two weeks ago in the half. By the end of the half, my legs were kind of destroyed. My foot was not feeling great (but didn't really bother me until cooling down) and I easily lost a minute in the last two miles with my legs just not wanting to go (aerobically I was more or less okay for being at the end of an all out effort). It took my foot and legs about a week to recover. I wonder if it's just something about my style of running that doesn't work well with those shoes. I've run all my long runs this cycle in Boston Adios 4 or something like that. Those seem to work well. That might be a safer choice. Anyone else have similar experience in the Nikes?

     

    And to answer your question, I think I'm in the mid 50s. I've hit at least 50 since the first full week of August. Hit 60 the week of Sept 23, but then back down to the 50s for two weeks before/after the half. I hope to get to 70 and hang out there, with the exception of 10 days in Barcelona. Even with that, and assuming I can get this plan to stick, this will be the most consistent marathon cycle I have had since the fall of 2014. So yeah, I'm looking forward to it!

     

    Your training is looking insane. That workout yesterday was off the charts.

     

    DW - I like seeing the bounce back. Amazing stuff.

    Upcoming races: Houston Full January 2020

    Nimmals


      DarkWave Glad you're feeling better youre hell bent on running. Just becareful we are going to pray you have a great race possibly even a PR.


      Mikkey you want the shoes. I have if youre a 10.5 or an 11 I'll give you a pair of the old Flynits

       

      Cal stop being stubborn get the shoes.

       

      Andres great week wear the shoes


      JMac Nice week too @ 82 "be the shoes"

       

      Had a great week ended up running longer than expected. Saturday  late start so only ran 8 mi. Two more hard workouts and then its race/taper time. The Spread for CIM is10 minutes as per JTs prediction. JT I raise it to 11.5  i'm back in the game and feeling better. Foots a little dodgey but nothing an ice bath cant cure.

      Yesterdays long run was nice and slow with 4 miles at marathon place it was hilly AF so it looks sloppy but my ass, foot and shoulders were hurting plus there was a section of dug up road really impacted my times as it was on a long climb. All in all very happy with the 4 miles. I took the segment for the loop. A friend of mine who cant break 2:40 to save his life just ran a 2:28 at Big Bear. So while he was away i took his segment and he right away says he did it all on 6:10s while I did it on 8:00s with a 4 mile push. i was like he who uses a down hill marathon to PR in every distance from 5K to marathon and include in his sig cannot debate fairness of how a segment is won.

      flyrunnr


        Nimmals - you need to talk that young padawn friend of yours, and get him motivated and serious about racing against better competition. That 5300' downhill marathon PR at Big Bear needs a double asterisk, if not a triple asterisk. Wink I've got a friend that ran 1:05 on his half there in the past that cannot break 1:10 on a flat course.

         

        Brew - I like Cal enjoy Hansons training, I've run 9 marathons, and 6 of them have been on various Hansons plans. You have to learn the philosophy then it's easy to create custom plans or just buy one.

         

        Hansons - That 16mi long run limitation is somewhat misleading, because that's what people take away from the canned beginner plan in the books. Their philosophy is that long run distance should be relative to overall training schedule - as the overall weekly mileage goes up, so does the distance of the long run. The long runs should not exceed 20%-30% of the total weekly mileage, or 2.5 hours. When you get up to 75mpw or more, you will run plenty of 18's and a handful of 20's. If you run more miles (80-120mpw), you'll get up to 22 milers and beyond. There are some long runs with quality (MP or slightly faster) but only 20%-25% of the run. Since the "cumulative fatigue" is in play, you should feel like you're legs are toasted during your long runs, and it should be a real struggle to run MP miles at first on really tired legs. Needless to say, late in the marathon on race day will feel very familiar, since you've done every weekend for several weeks prior to the race.

         

        DW - wishing you the best at Richmond, if it comes to fruition, otherwise consider Philly again.

         

        Andres - the shoes are definitely worth getting better acquainted with, you should feel less beat up in them after a marathon than your typical marathon shoes.

         

        VF's - check out the Nick Symmonds video where he dissects them, he runs in them on treadmill comparing them to Hokas and then does a vertical jump test in them as well.

         

        Cinnamon - hey there!

         

        I had Lyme disease last year along with a few subsequent flare ups, and this summer picked up some posterior tibial tendinitis, so I'm just getting back to 40-50mpw, and should be posting my weeklies here again more frequently. Now just to get back into sub-3 shape...

        https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437

        PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016)  | 13.1 1:26:36 (2017)  | 26.2  2:58:46 (2017)

        2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon                       Up Next: US Club Nationals, Boston '20, Broad Street Run

         

        JMac11


        Benevolent Leader

          Fly - great to hear from you! Looking forward to you posting more frequently. I've penciled in NYC next year. I'm going for CIM this year just to get a break from the difficulty of the NYC course, but when you can sleep in your own bed and run right past your apartment, it's hard to pass up NYC again.

           

          Nimmals - Revel courses are an embarrassment for our sport. Why did he even run it? It's not like he needed it for a BQ or anything. It's too bad you're feeling in better shape, I was hoping you could pace me to a 2:38 

           

          Andres - Thanks on my training, it's been my best cycle by far.

           

          I think you should give the VFs one more try, maybe for a marathon pace workout? They're so amazing it would be hard to give them up for Houston. But if they bother you on that run too, it might not work for you. The one goofy thing about them is how narrow they around the middle of your foot, it's almost like your mid-foot spills over the edge.

           

          And so happy to hear this will be your most consistent cycle! Really excited to see what you can do out there with a good block.

          5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

           

          Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

          Nimmals


            Nimmals - you need to talk that young padawn friend of yours, and get him motivated and serious about racing against better competition. That 5300' downhill marathon PR at Big Bear needs a double asterisk, if not a triple asterisk. Wink I've got a friend that ran 1:05 on his half there in the past that cannot break 1:10 on a flat course.

             

             

            FlyRunnr   He's is a friend not a Padawan. He is un-coachable. We run together and are great friends but I do not coach him. He is telling me to do it to go sub 2:18. What props I give him is his quads surviving but I don't want an asterisk beside my name.  I think we are in agreement here. He once ran Boston with me and quit at mile 3 decided to jog because it was too rolling not a full downhill. Then next year went back to 2nd wave and jogged with Meb. Then this year he paced my young Padawan. He can't race if he isn't winning or placing but he is an excellent pacer.

             

            JMAC there will be pace groups for the girls to run 2:38 the rabbit elite employs several pacers so look for the rabbit pack to form about 2 miles in and run with them it will be a pack of about 15 women tightly bunched and running like the Borg in a collective all in service of the greater whole paced by a rabbit elite guy.

            JMac11


            Benevolent Leader

              Nimmals - Do you mean 2:37? Isn't that the A standard for Women? I assume that's why their will be some pacing there. I think I'll still try to stick to my 6:00-6:05 pacing, but if I catch up to this 2:37 pace group for some reason, in no way shape or form will I pass them. They would be great to work with. I also just linked who the person is you're talking about, because I always seem him in the GLIRC club on Strava running a lot of mileage. But that 2:28 is a joke.

              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

               

              Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)


              Elite Jogger


                Mickey you want the shoes. I have if youre a 10.5 or an 11 I'll give you a pair of the old Flynits

                 

                 

                 

                Thanks Slammin, but I already have the shoes and it’s the stubborn old fool Cal that needs a pair. 👍

                 

                Andres - I remember you not being overly enthusiastic about the shoes after Cherry Blossom. Are you a heel striker? I remember reading an article about mid/forefoot strikers getting the most benefit from VFs.

                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                Andres1045


                   

                  Andres - I remember you not being overly enthusiastic about the shoes after Cherry Blossom. Are you a heel striker? I remember reading an article about mid/forefoot strikers getting the most benefit from VFs.

                  Nope. More mid/fore. I think it's something about my big toe on the left. I know the plate does something that's designed to help your toes stay in line. I think my natural stride has me kicking up my big toe up more than I need to (kinda arching it up). More so on my left than my right. I don't know nearly enough about biomechanics, nor care to, to understand the shoes and why I don't just love them. I can just tell that they don't feel nearly as good as a good pair of racing flats, even though I don't doubt that it's helping my pace at the given effort. Or at least at the beginning. I'm fearful that at the late stages of a marathon it could leave me wrecked. I may try them more, like others suggest, to see if I can get over it.

                  Upcoming races: Houston Full January 2020

                  flyrunnr


                    Nimmals - Do you mean 2:37? Isn't that the A standard for Women? I assume that's why their will be some pacing there. I think I'll still try to stick to my 6:00-6:05 pacing, but if I catch up to this 2:37 pace group for some reason, in no way shape or form will I pass them. They would be great to work with. I also just linked who the person is you're talking about, because I always seem him in the GLIRC club on Strava running a lot of mileage. But that 2:28 is a joke.

                     

                    JMac - you could plan on running a 30:00 5 mile split from the start and see what *women* you're with at that point,. Looking at the results from last year, shows a good cluster or women in that 2:32-2:40 range, mostly with bib#s in that 135-230 range. The only reason I say women, because I believe that women are generally better pacers than men, as far as producing even splits, and the more experienced women (usually older) are even better at it. Work with them, and you'll both benefit.

                     

                    Nimmals may give you some better advice.

                    https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437

                    PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016)  | 13.1 1:26:36 (2017)  | 26.2  2:58:46 (2017)

                    2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon                       Up Next: US Club Nationals, Boston '20, Broad Street Run

                     

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                      With regard to the OG VFs - I think they work much better for mid-foot to heel strike.  The Next%s seems a bit better for forefoot striking.

                       

                      I am a mid-foot striker, but strike further back for the marathon and move towards my forefoot for shorter stuff. I'm pretty sure that's why I prefer the OG for the marathon, but like the Next for shorter stuff.

                       

                      Re: pushing back marathons - jayluf, to your point I had a lot of teammates who missed out on NYC the Sandy year redirect to Richmond a week later, and they all ran really well.   (one friend actually learned NYC was cancelled as he was leaving the expo....)

                       

                      I've also done the push-back-a-week thing once before, when I ran Hartford 2017. That year I was supposed to run Mohawk-Hudson the week before, but my cat got sick and needed surgery, so I pushed back a week to Columbus.  Then, on the Thursday before Columbus (a Sunday race) we switched again to Hartford (a Saturday race) since the Columbus weather was going to be absolutely awful.  Hartford's weather that year was far from great, but I still ran reasonably well.  I wasn't as fast as I wanted to be, but it was mostly due to the weather, not the extra week of taper.

                       

                      My lessons learned from that were:

                      a) you absolutely can push a marathon back a week with little effect on fitness (of course, I repeated the 2nd week of taper that time, this time I'm repeating the final week)

                      b) if you are going to push back a week, you need to commit to your new race early.  I think Hartford was made harder by the fact that I only decided to run it 48 hours before (I don't do spontaneity well), and also swapped at the last minute from a Sunday race to a Saturday, which mucked up my last few days of taper.

                      c) For me to run my best, I can't travel the day before the race - need to go at least 2 days before, and preferably hit the expo that evening, and then spend the day before chilling out.

                       

                      Here, I made the decision (though not totally committed) more than a week before.  Additionally, unlike Hartford, I've always kinda wanted to run Richmond full one year, and can get excited about it.    And I've run the half-marathon and 8K there, so I'm familiar with part of the course.  Plus my coach will be there with a bunch of teammates cheering the full marathon.  So lots of reasons that I should run well even after the re-direct.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                        Andres - I should also note that I haven't noted any improved recovery from running/racing in the VF - but that might just be my gait.

                         

                        The one shoe I _did_ note help from was when I was doing my long runs in the Adidas Sub-2.  Notable difference there.  I just didn't like the Sub-2 for racing because it was too flexible.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        Nimmals


                          Nimmals - Do you mean 2:37? Isn't that the A standard for Women? I assume that's why their will be some pacing there. I think I'll still try to stick to my 6:00-6:05 pacing, but if I catch up to this 2:37 pace group for some reason, in no way shape or form will I pass them. They would be great to work with. I also just linked who the person is you're talking about, because I always seem him in the GLIRC club on Strava running a lot of mileage. But that 2:28 is a joke.

                           

                          JMAC Yes its sub 2:38 so they have a pace group that runs just under it and they have a couple guys to help them.  One takes off and then he joins later and drag the ones with more power to faster times and a pack stay together remember any woman hits A standard gets $1500 and woman B standards get $500. That's why the quality there is so high. Plus its the largest OTQ qualifier race.

                           

                          Flyrunnr is correct. the women run in a cluster for much of it after two miles so you can go ahead or wait for the collective 30 minutes in. Much later in the race when they start to fade some girls go to work some stay on pace to get that money some fade. There is a guy waiting to help faster and a guy waiting to help drag encourage faders. I have an eye for detail so i take in everything rule says guys can pace but offer no physical assistant no touching passing gels bottles etc. holding hands etc. Rabbit squad has it down to a science I watched them last year Michele was in a pack with me and she had a guy waiting for her at 15 once he saw she was good he took off again he doesn't interfere but he drops back to like make sure theyre OK. He has a bib which the rule says he has to be in the race you can see him in the videos he is right around Samantha.

                           

                          You can see him bright socks. He never help just sit there like a carrot in orange sock and orange fly knits dangling the carrot for her.

                           

                          But he looks back alot speeds up make sure her bottle isnt knocked over etc. all within the rules.

                           

                          Rabbit guy Ahead 1st rabrit girl


                          Yak-3 vs Spitfire

                            Nimmals - I have 10.5 or 11 size - so I can use your old shoes you do not need 🤗

                            I know what VF is but what OG VF means?

                            JMac11


                            Benevolent Leader

                              I also have a pair of 10.5 VFs I'm willing to offer up!

                               

                              Cal - OG is the original VF. There have been 3 versions: OG, Flyknit, and Next

                               

                              Pacers - I really like this idea of finding this group of women to run with. I'm not going to do it out of the gate because I take my time warming up, but otherwise it could really work for the middle 1/2 of the race. Also nimmals - that pacing from your link is insane, that is SO well done.

                               

                              Fly - forgot to comment on this but I had posterior tibial tendonitis myself this winter. It was a complete bitch to get through, and it still bothers me from time to time, especially as I was building up this cycle, so don't get scared if it starts getting achy. I just made sure to be good about massaging it and taping when it was flaring up, along with good stretching. Kept it at just a niggle.

                              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                               

                              Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                              weatherboy80


                                Just a quick check in as I'm currently battling a bit of a stomach virus.  Came home from my morning run (which felt rough and the HR was elevated) and have been sick on and off all day, which means no run until conditions approve.  I guess this isn't the worst time for this to happen as I'm still almost 8 weeks out from the marathon and I'm coming off 93 miles last week.  Only downside is that I have a 10k this Saturday planned and a HM scheduled for December 1.  Hopefully this only lasts a day or 2 and I can get back to it!  Was planning to debut my VF's later this week too!

                                 

                                Fly: great to hear from you again.  Looks like you're building nicely!

                                 

                                DW: glad you are feeling better and good luck next week! Thinking you made a wise choice.

                                 

                                Andres: also happy to see you hitting some consistent mileage again.  Looking stronger and stronger!

                                 

                                Nimmals: great pacing advice!

                                 

                                Swim: just an insane looking week and set of workouts!

                                 

                                JMac: that workout yesterday was just off the charts.  certainly might have to borrow your idea of a complete reset after our goal races!

                                5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 34:30 (11/19)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)