2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 634 times)


Yak-3 vs Spitfire

    I also have a pair of 10.5 VFs I'm willing to offer up!

     

    I would love to jump on the offer but I believe you need to take half a size bigger for VF and my usual running size is 10.5. But maybe 10.5 will be fine. Just checked runningwarehouse and they do not have VFs in stock, only Next. Which might be OK too...

    Brewing Runner


    CIM FanBoi

      I also have a pair of 10.5 VFs I'm willing to offer up!

       

       

      I am a size 10.5 in the Flyknit non-vaporfly.

       

      fly: you explained it better. It’s 25-30% of weekly mileage they limit the long run to. I think I’ve done mostly 15s and did a 20 finally all on 70 miles a week. I can’t say I’ve found it difficult to run M pace or slightly faster on this many miles which is a confidence boost, but also seems like it could support getting cocky with confidence if I let it. Now I’m wondering if I’ve been able to do all that since my long runs have been closer to 20% of my weekly mileage.

      1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

      5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

      10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

      Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

      Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

      Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

      *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

       

      2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

       


      Elite Jogger

        Nimmals - I have 10.5 or 11 size - so I can use your old shoes you do not need 🤗

        I know what VF is but what OG VF means?

         

        I would go with the smaller 10.5 size if you have a choice!  Most of my other running shoes (including the Nike ZoomFlys) are a size bigger.

        5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

        Brewing Runner


        CIM FanBoi

          Jmac if you say "vaporflys are right there" for gaining every last second why are those Revel runs an embarrassment? Spring shoes are totally cool but downhill marathons existed for years before these magic shoes did aren't? I say this as someone who has a PR on a massive downhill course and an epic blow up about 100 feet from the finish. Maybe it was the 20-30 degree temperature change. I just wonder why spring shoes are okay but a downhill race isn't.

           

          FIVE gels for CIM? I thought you were only going to use three?

           

          cal thanks for the support on sub 3. I'm really up and down on it as far as how confident I am about it. My heart rate has dropped a lot recently and I don't know if it is due to colder weather when I'm running, or overall fitness. I am not sure if I'd trust a 128 heart rate for 5 straight minutes at a sub 8 minute pace. Just like I'm not sure how much I should trust being in the middle of my aerobic heart rate for M paced workouts. Oh and Tuesdays are 10 seconds faster. I agree on Hansons making you great at running marathons. It's their only focus, and mine right now, so while I could PROBABLY PR a 5K or 10K off this training I'd expect to do better off training for those specific distances. Maybe we should BOTH step up to the vapor fly shoes for CIM. Test them out a week before.

           

          andes I threw in a 20 this week and realized how much different those last 4-5 miles are. With 4 Sundays (or is it 3 now) until CIM I'll probably get at least one more and a goal of doing two before tapering. It might be mental, it might be physical, it might just be smoke and mirrors, and I think it's going to help.

           

           

           

          Day

          Miles

          Description

          Mon

          8.0

          Marathon pace. Got caught up with the run group.

          Tue

          11 + TRX

          2x3 mile at GMP – 10 seconds; 1 mile jog in between. (6:40, 6:40, 6:37) 9:25 (6:38, 6:40, 6:36). TRX workout after.

          Wed

          7.78

          Easy pace

          Thu

          12.75 + TRX

          9 @ GMP (minus 5 seconds)

          Fri

          6.15

          Holding back for easy pace

          Sat

          20.01

          First 20 miler

          Sun

          4.62

          Rounding out the week

          Total

          70.75

           

           

           

          My Week

          Monday was too fast. I was supposed to go easy and got suckered into M pace with some friends doing CIM. It didn't seem to affect the rest of the week's workouts.

          Wednesday was too fast. Jmac called me out on it so I slowed down Friday. Friday actually felt physically harder than Monday or Wednesday.

          Thursday and Tuesday went just fine. Thursday was about a 6:45 average for the M portion.

          Saturday was okay. It's been a while since I've run 20 and the last 3-4 miles were mental. I wanted to run for 3 hours when an 8:30 pace would have put me close. I started running around an 8:12, then some 8s and slowed myself down. The last mile was ALL mental. Sunday just rounded out the week and jogged by feel.

           

          Today I'm feeling some tightness in my left groin and thigh area. Should be interesting for the afternoon's 3x2 mile workout.

          1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

          5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

          10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

          Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

          Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

          Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

          *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

           

          2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

           

          jayluf


            Wanted to share a great article my coach wrote stressing the important of rest days:

             

            https://trailrunnermag.com/training/trail-tips/why-rest-days-are-important-for-long-term-growth.html

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

               

              I would go with the smaller 10.5 size if you have a choice!  Most of my other running shoes (including the Nike ZoomFlys) are a size bigger.

               

              VF sizing.  I am a size 6 in the OG VF4%, the VF Flyknit, and the Next%.  However, the OG is significantly larger - I have to wear thick smartwool socks in them; while I wear very thin socks in the other two.

               

              I would say that one should size 1/2 down in the OG VF (if you can still find a pair) and size normally in the others.  As a size 6, sizing down isn't an easy option, hence the smartwool socks.

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              JMac11


              Benevolent Leader

                Jmac if you say "vaporflys are right there" for gaining every last second why are those Revel runs an embarrassment? Spring shoes are totally cool but downhill marathons existed for years before these magic shoes did aren't? I say this as someone who has a PR on a massive downhill course and an epic blow up about 100 feet from the finish. Maybe it was the 20-30 degree temperature change. I just wonder why spring shoes are okay but a downhill race isn't.

                 

                 

                 

                As with everything in life, there is nuance here and just because one thing that gives an advantage is okay does make everything else okay. That's like saying "you're wearing VFs, what's wrong with taking EPO?" There's also a clear difference here: Revel Marathons are not eligible for an OTQ, which I consider the gold standard for fair courses, and it's not even close. There's a reason why the Olympic Committee (I think that's the right body) added in a net drop requirement, because people were going to St. George to get an OTQ and then running an embarrassing time at the actual trials. VFs are completely legal, and as DW has pointed out many times, it's not like everyone wearing these shoes is winning races or setting WRs.

                 

                Shoes, just like drop, can be both murky and clear cut. Murky examples are the VF, or courses with a net drop like Boston with a tailwind. Clear cut examples of things that shouldn't count are courses with 5K feet of drop, or literally running with shoes that have springs.

                 

                These Revel courses were specifically designed for the situation Nimmals described, someone running a time that they legitimately could not run on any other course, and not even close.

                 

                Of course, everyone needs their own standard here of what they want to do. If you want to claim Revel as your PR, that's totally up to you, this is an Internet forum not the world record. You're clearly in good enough shape to beat that record on a fair course, so this is probably moot. Additionally, your blow up there may have just been poor training for the downhills, which doesn't mean the course is more "fair" because of it. The point is that if you train for the downhills and the quad beating, you will run a time that is not indicative of your true ability on a flat course. I just find those courses to be so comically cheap and ridiculous that the BAA should be embarrassed that they take qualifying times from those courses.

                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                 

                Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                Nimmals


                  Wanted to share a great article my coach wrote stressing the important of rest days:

                   

                  https://trailrunnermag.com/training/trail-tips/why-rest-days-are-important-for-long-term-growth.html

                   

                  Jayluf Even before I read I realized That's Eyjafjallajökull Glacier, I hiked that then sat under the Skógafoss waterfall and enjoyed a refreshing mist bath.

                   

                  I stress the importance of a rest day but people don't get it. speaking of mist I drizzle along at 10 min miles quite often so technically my runs count as active recovery. But I do take rest days.

                   

                  JMAC 5-7 gels is correct you need a gel every 20-25 miniutes if going under sub 2;30 and every 30-35 for sub 3. whereas a 4 hour marathoner only needs 3-4 gels entire race.

                   

                  Speaking of peacocks today I dreaded my workout due to the 27 miles on sunday with a 4 mile push a Marathon pace.

                  So i got up at 3:55 AM but delayed my workout until 5:00 AM I was scared I'd die but I aced my workout today 7x 2k with 2x 400m

                  7x 2k @ 7:26, 6:51, 6:51, 6:50, 6:54, 6:51, 6:45

                  2x 400M @ 68,67

                   

                  My young Padawan was suppose to run 7:50 she went 7x 2K @ 7:50, 7:51, 7:53, 7:58, 8:05, 8:07, 7:36

                   

                  Those who follow me on Garmin my strava watch just records whole run not intervals.

                  My balls grew bigger I'm thinking I'll chase Allie Keifers boyfriend. I think he ran 2:23 at chicago but last year he went 2;36  now he is going sub 2:18 a few months after Chicago. And while my goal dropped by 4 minutes his dropped by 18 minutes. That's some big balls, no wonder she loves him.

                   

                  Cals all my shoes are brand new. the only used shoe I ever gave away were the orange OG vapor fly which I wore twice those were the infamous shoes that flew off my feet I wore them in a 10k and 5k two back to back days and I gave them to the kid that ran Big bear Revel he is actually wearing them in his post. They were 11 kept slipping off so I bought 2 pairs of 10.5 only wore the Orange. Then when I bought the flyknit I bought both sizes, wore 11 at CIM never wore 10.5 they are too small. So its funny 11 too big in OG  10.5 too small in flyknit 10.5 too small in vapor weave  so other than og they ran small or true  flyknit ran big. I wear 11s in v2, v3 10.5 in OG.

                  Brewing Runner


                  CIM FanBoi

                    Jmac wait.... you have a problem with EPO? Next you'll have a problem with HGH. I won't go into elevation training.

                    I guess I can't say much since I'm wearing the zoomfly flyknits with carbon fiber plate in them and bought them specifically for CIM to get whatever advantage they can provide me. I just won't spend $200+ on one pair of shoes. Something inside me says its wrong. Something else inside me says I'm cheap.

                    I think my blow up was nutrition and temperature hence the reason to switch gels. Similar sugar problems happened during Chicago somehow aren't resurfacing using Maurten. I'll not be running it ever again and might not run any other Revel race in general.

                    1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                    5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                    10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                    Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                    *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                     

                    2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                     

                    jayluf


                      Jayluf Even before I read I realized That's Eyjafjallajökull Glacier, I hiked that then sat under the Skógafoss waterfall and enjoyed a refreshing mist bath.

                       

                       

                       

                      That's so cool. Sounds like an amazing experience.


                      Yak-3 vs Spitfire

                        JMac - your reasons re VF and Revel races are not convincing... Just like Mikkey said - he doesn't know anybody who would not gain from running in VFs. The same re Revel (or similar) courses - I know plenty of people who totally blew their races there - it's totally different from running a regular course - you need some modified training - I agree, you can get a much better time if you prepare well, but you should know what to do specifically. I actually find it very interesting to run one of those races, would be great to run it at least once, or maybe twice, because I am pretty sure you won't nail the training correctly the first time. I was actually training for one of those courses in Idaho - I think like 3 or 4K net downhill and got injured for few weeks while I was trying to train for downhill marathon. I am not going to list it as PR (if I even PR there) but I am really curious to run it because it is so different - and I don't see any shame running it and talking about it. It's like running 100K (which I ran multiple times) or 100 miles (which I never ran) - absolutely, totally different experience - and cannot say it's bad one.

                         

                        You are just really young and very opinionated about some things - which is great - I envy you about it - I wish I could go back 20-25 years back and have that strong opinion about many things - I don't have that opinion power anymore - mostly because I do not care or realized that most things only just look simple and logical but in reality many-faced. But I still like much that you have your strong opinion 

                        cinnamon girl


                          M: 15 mi moderate (7:3?) with middle 15 min T (6:2?) 
                          T: 6 mi easy (8:28)
                          W: 60 min easy (8:00)
                          T: 15 mi moderate (7:29)
                          F: 7 mi hilly, easy effort (9:09)
                          S: 4 mi hilly, easy effort (8:51)
                          S: 7 mi easy (7:52)

                           

                          worked ~60 hours this past week so I'm happy I was disciplined enough to get in what I did.

                          JTReeves - how is it coming along? I've missed several pages tried to skim but I don't think I saw an update.

                          Darkwave - +1 to others saying you were fortunate. When I was hit by a car I cracked my pelvis and couldn't move for several weeks without severe pain. I was only pissed he didn't have insurance. Have fun this weekend.

                          Fly - again, good to see you back at it.

                          Be your own inspiration

                          JMac11


                          Benevolent Leader

                            Cal - on the shoes, I think a lot of people gain by wearing shoes, period. What would the marathon world record be if we ran barefoot? 2:20? I have no idea, but the point is that just because you get an "advantage" doesn't mean that is unfair. Technology evolves everywhere. Look at golf - they used to play with wood sticks where pros would drive the ball 200 yards. Now old men can drive the ball 200 yards with the technology out there.

                             

                            Again, this is about your own personal views and an honor system for the majority of amateurs out there, just like golf. If you want to claim Revel as your PR, go for it! I'm sure there are people who don't view CIM, or Boston, or any net downhill course as a legit PR attempt. To DW's point I think there's a degree of "if you haven't run it before, it's hard to judge the course" so maybe I'm being too harsh on Revel, but I find time and again that people are putting up ridiculous times there that don't correspond to their true ability on a flat course.

                            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                             

                            Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                            Andres1045


                              The advantage of running down a mountain is relatively obvious. I've never met someone who doesn't put an asterisk on a Revel-like race result. On the other hand, VF's seem to create a clear advantage, and yet I'm not sure anyone (or very few) put an asterisk next to their PR run in them. And to be clear, I'm not trying to say you should. All I'm saying is that the huge advancement in shoe technology in a very short period of time (as opposed to the incremental advancements we've had since the days of racing barefoot) has caused more confusion then the addition of a few very, very steep downhill course.

                              Upcoming races: Houston Full January 2020


                              Elite Jogger

                                The advantage of running down a mountain is relatively obvious. I've never met someone who doesn't put an asterisk on a Revel-like race result. On the other hand, VF's seem to create a clear advantage, and yet I'm not sure anyone (or very few) put an asterisk next to their PR run in them. And to be clear, I'm not trying to say you should. All I'm saying is that the huge advancement in shoe technology in a very short period of time (as opposed to the incremental advancements we've had since the days of racing barefoot) has caused more confusion then the addition of a few very, very steep downhill course.

                                Yep, they’re noticeably different to any other shoes I’ve worn in the 12 years I’ve been running. But I don’t think anyone is going to start putting an asterisk next to a VF PR, simply because they aren’t banned shoes and eligible for WRs. Will all the other brands have their own VF version in a few years time? Maybe I’ll still PR when I’m 60yo if shoe technology gets even better. 😁

                                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)