2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 634 times)

Brewing Runner


CIM FanBoi

    jmac I'll pay your race entry to Revel Rockies. June 6, 2020. I'd honestly be really interested to see how someone of your caliber would do there. Everyone seems to hate on the Revel series and I don't know many people who have run anything like them. I'm not saying you'll fail, or it's easy. It's just different. I had some hills I could train on that were close to the same net downhill slope so I'd wonder how someone with your setup would do. I also didn't have to go up as high in elevation as people who live in Las Vegas, Sacramento or Orlando.

     

    Mikkey If WADA could enforce a ban on elevation training they'd do it. Living at sea level then going to the mountains to train is blood doping. Michael Phelps had a chamber he slept in that simulated being above something like 9,000 ft. and he lived in Baltimore. He gets all the benefits of being at altitude without any of the trade offs and the Olympics have no problem with it. I guess sleeping in a chamber that can give you all the effects of EPO doping is 100% acceptable, but paying someone to stick a needle in your arm isn't. I say this as someone who lives at 4,500 ft elevation and will be racing around 300 ft elevation.

     

    andres I think the only confusing part TO ME is why shoes are legit but using gravity and the natural shape of the land isn't.

    1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

    5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

    10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

    Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

    Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

    Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

    *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

     

    2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

     

    Andres1045


      Yep, they’re noticeably different to any other shoes I’ve worn in the 12 years I’ve been running. But I don’t think anyone is going to start putting an asterisk next to a VF PR, simply because they aren’t banned shoes and eligible for WRs. Will all the other brands have their own VF version in a few years time? Maybe I’ll still PR when I’m 60yo if shoe technology gets even better. 😁

      Yeah, that's the side of the argument I tend to find myself on: the "They're legal, so what's there to talk about?" side. But there are a lot of reasonable people that say that they create such an advantage that it's hard to compare times run now with ones run only 2 years ago. And the only reason they're not banned is because Nike is too powerful.

       

       

      I think that's what annoys me. Those people have a point. As much as I would like it to be simple, it isn't.

      Upcoming races: Houston Full January 2020


      Elite Jogger

        Yeah, that's the side of the argument I tend to find myself on: the "They're legal, so what's there to talk about?" side. But there are a lot of reasonable people that say that they create such an advantage that it's hard to compare times run now with ones run only 2 years ago. And the only reason they're not banned is because Nike is too powerful.

         

         

        I think that's what annoys me. Those people have a point. As much as I would like it to be simple, it isn't.

         

        Well I’ve always been up front about them and think they gave me 20 sec/per 5k advantage (3min thereabouts in a marathon). I ran a 2:51 in 2016 in a pair of Hoka Tracers....so if my 2:50 VF PR isn’t acceptable then I can live with it!

        5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

        Swim5599


          jmac I'll pay your race entry to Revel Rockies. June 6, 2020. I'd honestly be really interested to see how someone of your caliber would do there. Everyone seems to hate on the Revel series and I don't know many people who have run anything like them. I'm not saying you'll fail, or it's easy. It's just different. I had some hills I could train on that were close to the same net downhill slope so I'd wonder how someone with your setup would do. I also didn't have to go up as high in elevation as people who live in Las Vegas, Sacramento or Orlando.

           

          Mikkey If WADA could enforce a ban on elevation training they'd do it. Living at sea level then going to the mountains to train is blood doping. Michael Phelps had a chamber he slept in that simulated being above something like 9,000 ft. and he lived in Baltimore. He gets all the benefits of being at altitude without any of the trade offs and the Olympics have no problem with it. I guess sleeping in a chamber that can give you all the effects of EPO doping is 100% acceptable, but paying someone to stick a needle in your arm isn't. I say this as someone who lives at 4,500 ft elevation and will be racing around 300 ft elevation.

           

          andres I think the only confusing part TO ME is why shoes are legit but using gravity and the natural shape of the land isn't.

          If we really think that’s what gave Phelps the edge when others were doing it also that’s ridiculous.  He was great for a zillion other reasons.

          HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

          Brewing Runner


          CIM FanBoi

            If we really think that’s what gave Phelps the edge when others were doing it also that’s ridiculous.  He was great for a zillion other reasons.

             

            It’s an example of something not banned yet some consider controversial and the alternative is outright banned. . I’m confident In believing it gave him an advantage or he would not have done it. Andy Jones said he had a similar setup when training for ultras because he didn’t (chose not to)  live in the mountains. If boosting his red blood cell count artificially was considered legal it shouldn’t matter how you do it.

             

            There is nothing natural about sleeping at 9,000 ft and living in Baltimore.

            1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

            5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

            10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

            Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

            Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

            Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

            *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

             

            2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

             

            darkwave


            Mother of Cats

               

              It’s an example of something not banned yet some consider controversial and the alternative is outright banned. . I’m confident In believing it gave him an advantage or he would not have done it. Andy Jones said he had a similar setup when training for ultras because he didn’t (chose not to)  live in the mountains. If boosting his red blood cell count artificially was considered legal it shouldn’t matter how you do it.

               

              There is nothing natural about sleeping at 9,000 ft and living in Baltimore.

               

              It's interesting, because it raises the question: what is natural or unnatural?

               

              In my own training, I lift heavy weights regularly because it stimulates my body's release of HGH and testosterone (among other reasons).  I try to get tons of sleep for the same reason - HGH is released when we sleep.

               

              I use saunas regularly to increase my blood volume.

               

              I see all of those as natural means of improving performance, and completely ethical (they are without a doubt legal).  But taking a pill or getting an injection to accomplish the same thing would be against the rules.

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

               

              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              JMac11


              Benevolent Leader

                DW - how are you feeling, ready to go? What's the goal?

                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                 

                Next Race: California International Marathon (12/8/19)

                M_M_C


                  Darkwave - I totally agree with your assessment. Also sorry about the accident, hope you're doing okay.

                   

                  I would equate sleeping in a high altitude chamber to lifting weights, you are doing something which stimulates desired natural responses to your body. Once you get into injecting things intravenously, taking oral drugs (not supplements), or rubbing creams on your skin to trigger an response and alter your body's chemistry, that to me is unnatural.

                   

                  Fun fact, if you take a swish of Gatorade ~5 minutes before your race fo 5-10 seconds, you trick your brain into thinking your glycogen stores are higher than they actually are so you are able to perform better. User warning: only works for shorter race, wont help in a marathon.

                   

                  On a somewhat related note, I am curious to see how vaporflys (aka cheaterflys) are handled going forward especially in professional events. The ones that Kipchoge ran in didn't even look like shoes. At what point do they draw a line and start establishing requirements for shoes (i.e. the heal can only extend XX centimeters or the sole thickness is not to exceed XX...)

                  3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     15K: 54:46.2 (2019)     FM: 2:58:48 (2019)

                  Brewing Runner


                  CIM FanBoi

                    dwave I think needles and pills make it easy to say "that's not right" just because it's the "easy" way. Saunas, weights, and even spending 3 months at 9,000+ ft elevation are all seen as "putting in work" for most people. Creating a false environment to increase a natural process is a very gray area. It comes back to my saying of "if you ain't cheatin, you ain't tryin" because while winners never cheat and cheaters never win the people at the top sure do draw a lot of attention to everything they do and all of them have probably been called cheaters by someone who can't beat them.

                     

                    M_M_C: Interesting. So creating a synthetic environment for the sole purpose of increasing your red blood cell count is totally legit. Put the same results of that environment into a needle and its unnatural. I guess I'd view sleeping at 9,000 ft and living at 140 ft the same as injecting EPO into your veins because he was only doing it to get a competitive advantage to his competition. Lifting heavy stuff is something everyone can do. Not everyone can create, or afford, a sleep chamber.

                    Why change the rules about the shoes? Are they creating an unfair advantage no one else can afford, or is it an 'equipment race' that runners want to keep out of the sport? Are we not willing to accept a sub 2 by a handicapped runner with blades? They're just shoes and we've established they're acceptable for a PR.

                     

                    for the record, I'm not calling or trying to imply Phelps is a cheater. I view what he did as a willingness to do what it takes to be the best. I'm sure other athletes do it. Andy Jones Wilkins talked about a device he used that did the exact same thing when he was racing Western States and Leadville. He didn't move to the mountains. He brought the mountains to him. It's just very interesting to me to listen to the conversation about acceptable ways of increasing red blood cell counts strictly for the purpose of have an advantage over your competition. Just like spring shoes which I'll be wearing for CIM (zoom fly flyknit with carbon fiber plate) in hopes of breaking 3.

                     

                    The non 4% is on sale at nordstroms, I think.

                    https://www.nordstromrack.com/shop/product/3007495/nike-zoom-fly-running-shoe?color=005%20GUNSMK%2FBLHERO

                     

                    https://www.nordstromrack.com/shop/product/2791813?color=068%20BLACK%2FORNG%20P&utm_source=adlucent&utm_medium=feeds&utm_content=bing&utm_channel=shopping_acq_p&sid=545863&utm_term=545863&kwid=kwid&utm_campaign=%5BADL%5D%20%5BPLA%5D%20%5BBing%5D%20%5BShopping%5D%20-%20Categories%20-%20Brand&msclkid=ed712ff8c79916e1423d7235bb42adf2&adlclid=ADL-9b663e10-d8cd-48de-9977-b8f1014d60f8

                    1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                    5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                    10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                    Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                    Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                    *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                     

                    2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                     

                    flyrunnr


                      Brew - I’ll add that not everyone benefits equally from altitude training. I had a coach that lived at Mammoth for a few years ran the same times as when he did marathon training in Philly. The altitude tents are now as cheap as $400 for new, I looked into them when they were closer to $3000 and selling used for $1500, and determined that they weren’t the same as doing a two week altitude stint. You really need 12-16 hours a day in them, and they are not comfortable to sit in. There may be some "placebo" effects that help your confidence as a result.  Ideally, you should go to a place like Mammoth, where you can “live high, train low”, which is  much better than live high, train high where you cannot train even remotely close to MP. So people that can do that may have an advantage over people in Kenya, Ethiopia that may live/train at altitude. Funny side note,I recall Meb saying when trained for the cycle where he won Boston that he never ran at MP the entire cycle, but ran at the perceived effort since he was at altitude. "Trust your training."

                       

                      Again, all these extra things that the elites do add up to 1-3% improvements, and just because everyone does/does not have access, or can/cannot afford it doesn't make it legal/illegal from a WADA/USADA lens, some of the stuff is just plain harmful to our bodies, so it's more of a safety risk-based determination. For example,  L-carnitine is natural by-product of red meat and other foods, you can take L-Carnitine supplements (pills or drinks) every day for years.  You can even inject them, but just don't exceed the 50ML limit in the restricted time period, like NOP did.

                       

                      Having access to a sports psychologist, nutritionist, strength coach, physical therapist, shoe sponsor, access to altitude training, professional coach, trainer, new shoes, gps watches, running clothes, training partners, nutrition, supplements is all common practice for any of the elite training groups in US. Looking for an edge is not cheating, just be under a drug testing program with OOC testing, and maintain a legitimate biological passport.

                       

                      There will always be people that come up with new things that don't have markers on the current tests, but people will catch on soon enough and add them to the banned lists.

                      https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437

                      PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016)  | 13.1 1:26:36 (2017)  | 26.2  2:58:46 (2017)

                      2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon                       Up Next: US Club Nationals, Boston '20, Broad Street Run

                       

                      Brewing Runner


                      CIM FanBoi

                        Brew - I’ll add that not everyone benefits equally from altitude training. I had a coach that lived at Mammoth for a few years ran the same times as when he did marathon training in Philly. The altitude tents are now as cheap as $400 for new, I looked into them when they were closer to $3000 and selling used for $1500, and determined that they weren’t the same as doing a two week altitude stint. You really need 12-16 hours a day in them, and they are not comfortable to sit in. There may be some "placebo" effects that help your confidence as a result.  Ideally, you should go to a place like Mammoth, where you can “live high, train low”, which is  much better than live high, train high where you cannot train even remotely close to MP. So people that can do that may have an advantage over people in Kenya, Ethiopia that may live/train at altitude. Funny side note,I recall Meb saying when trained for the cycle where he won Boston that he never ran at MP the entire cycle, but ran at the perceived effort since he was at altitude. "Trust your training."

                         

                        Again, all these extra things that the elites do add up to 1-3% improvements, and just because everyone does/does not have access, or can/cannot afford it doesn't make it legal/illegal from a WADA/USADA lens, some of the stuff is just plain harmful to our bodies, so it's more of a safety risk-based determination. For example,  L-carnitine is natural by-product of red meat and other foods, you can take L-Carnitine supplements (pills or drinks) every day for years.  You can even inject them, but just don't exceed the 50ML limit in the restricted time period, like NOP did.

                         

                        Having access to a sports psychologist, nutritionist, strength coach, physical therapist, shoe sponsor, access to altitude training, professional coach, trainer, new shoes, gps watches, running clothes, training partners, nutrition, supplements is all common practice for any of the elite training groups in US. Looking for an edge is not cheating, just be under a drug testing program with OOC testing, and maintain a legitimate biological passport.

                         

                        There will always be people that come up with new things that don't have markers on the current tests, but people will catch on soon enough and add them to the banned lists.

                         

                        *COUGH* 1988 Olympics 100m Mens *COUGH*

                         

                        fly this is why I like the conversation. Where would you train low if you're living in Mammoth? Fresno? I'm sure there are people who don't agree with cryo treatments because it speeds up a natural process. Downhill marathon, moving to Mammoth, sleeping for 16 hours a day. It's all part of the sport and just depends on what someone is willing to do to be THEIR best. There is more to it than buying some shoes, or living on a mountain. just like your friend there are elites who live at high elevations and don't run well on a flat course. See Sage Canaday who missed an OTQ by something like 1 second per mile or less. It's a big reason I'd be interested in someone who lives close to sea level running the revel race that starts at 10,500' and ends around 5,000 ft. I did a tough mudder at NorthStar ski resort and TONS of people came from the San Francisco Bay Area to run the event. They're starting at 6,800' so I can't imagine how much of an air suck THAT is training at sea level.

                        1 mile: 5:38 (September 2018)

                        5K: 20:23 (March 2018)

                        10K: 42:11 (May 2018)

                        Half: 1:31:19.5* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                        Marathon 3:05:22.9* (2019 Mt Charleston Marathon)

                        Annual Miles 1,892.7 miles

                        *downhill course with 5,126 ft net drop and 30F temp change. 

                         

                        2019 Goal: Get into the 4/19/21 marathon

                         

                        flyrunnr


                          Where would you train low if you're living in Mammoth? Fresno?

                          Bishop, CA, which is about 45min from Mammoth Lakes, although Meb may have said closer to 35min from where he lived. I think you're closer to 4000 MSL in Bishop, which is about half the elevation of where you're living in Mammoth, but as far as training, you'll definitely get more oxygen and can put forth a better effort with that drop in altitude.

                          https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437

                          PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016)  | 13.1 1:26:36 (2017)  | 26.2  2:58:46 (2017)

                          2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon                       Up Next: US Club Nationals, Boston '20, Broad Street Run

                           

                          M_M_C


                            I've sat at the keyboard struggling to articulate why. Basically I think at some point they need to put some sort of cap on the technology, mainly concerning the shape and dimensions. It is getting to the point where someone who is a better runner than someone else, lets call it 4% better, could theoretically could lose to another runner just because of the technology on their feet gives them a 5% advantage rather than raw physical ability. At some point some governing body needs to put their foot down an say "This is what constitutes a shoe" and establish design requirements. At the rate things are going, Nike is just going to keep extending the heel on the shoe and morphing the shape, and eventually what will be worn on people feet will be unrecognizable. I think it is great that novel materials and other technological design advancements are being implemented in shoes, but at the end of the day (in my opinion) a shoe needs to look like a shoe.... but again what is a shoe? The assumption I am making  is that the shape has a lot to do with the next%'s success rather than the form or carbon fiber. That's my take.

                             

                             

                            Why change the rules about the shoes? Are they creating an unfair advantage no one else can afford, or is it an 'equipment race' that runners want to keep out of the sport? Are we not willing to accept a sub 2 by a handicapped runner with blades? They're just shoes and we've established they're acceptable for a PR.

                             

                            3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     15K: 54:46.2 (2019)     FM: 2:58:48 (2019)

                            M_M_C


                              I should also add that I may or may not be a little salty about 4%s likely being the reason I missed Boston by 27 seconds

                              3K: 8:29.12 (2017)     5K: 14:56.59 (2016)     8K: 25:27 (2016)     15K: 54:46.2 (2019)     FM: 2:58:48 (2019)

                              flyrunnr


                                It's a big reason I'd be interested in someone who lives close to sea level running the revel race that starts at 10,500' and ends around 5,000 ft. I did a tough mudder at NorthStar ski resort and TONS of people came from the San Francisco Bay Area to run the event. They're starting at 6,800' so I can't imagine how much of an air suck THAT is training at sea level.

                                 

                                This was just mentioned by Nimmals, so there's a data point, his friend lives/trains in Brooklyn which is pretty much as sea level, and just ran REVEL Big Bear in 2:28, he never broke 2:40 on a flat course at sea level. He went up to 6600' and ran a downhill marathon and got a 12 minute PR.

                                https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437

                                PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016)  | 13.1 1:26:36 (2017)  | 26.2  2:58:46 (2017)

                                2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon                       Up Next: US Club Nationals, Boston '20, Broad Street Run