2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 674 times)

JMac11


Taper Czar

    I do think people are obsessed with the carbon plate, but based on my research, it seems like that's just there to provide stability, not really acting as a "spring." The biggest advantage by far is the foam, as MMC alluded to. I went from a relatively thin flat in the Hyperspeed from Asics to a thick foam shoe in the Skechers GoRun for my training runs, and even that made a huge difference. I remember my first run in those Skechers absolutely FLYING. The 4% are definitely a big improvement over those Skechers, but it's the light cushioning that is the biggest difference maker. The height on those AlphaFlys are absurd.

    5K: 16:42 (9/20)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:15:28 (3/20)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 

     

    Next Race: Whatever COVID-19 will allow me to run 

    Running Problem


    Curmudgeon

      I've sat at the keyboard struggling to articulate why. Basically I think at some point they need to put some sort of cap on the technology, mainly concerning the shape and dimensions.

       

      M_M_C Similar to the blades the handicapped runners use? I'm sure those are regulated pretty strictly.  I considered buying them after my last BQ attempt. I kind of caved going for the cheaper version. I've also now learned a little more about handicapped event classifications. MAN there are a LOT.

       

      fly I saw nimmals post about Big Bear which is why I wondered if at 10,000 ft if there is a bigger disadvantage, or if its just raw athletic ability that makes it possible to overcome any kind of oxygen deprivation. 12 minutes is HUGE from my understanding at the point of being a 2:41 (or whatever he was) marathoner. 7.5% improvement just from the course advertising a 4.7% average downhill. I only pulled 8 minutes off my PR as a reference point. Bishop is also where Badwater 135 turns to go towards the finish up Mt. Whitney.

       

      Jmac I've wondered if a big benefit is just not feeling so beaten up after training in them. Not so much of a spring as a softer landing. Almost to a point of thinking I SHOULDN'T be using them for some M workouts, but I want to at least be comfortable running in them on race day. I'm sure there are lots of people going back to a bigger heal/toe drop shoe after running in something under 4mm now. Weren't Kipchoge's a 12mm drop or something along those lines?

      2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

      cinnamon girl


        darkwave


        Mother of Cats

          I do think people are obsessed with the carbon plate, but based on my research, it seems like that's just there to provide stability, not really acting as a "spring." The biggest advantage by far is the foam, as MMC alluded to. I went from a relatively thin flat in the Hyperspeed from Asics to a thick foam shoe in the Skechers GoRun for my training runs, and even that made a huge difference. I remember my first run in those Skechers absolutely FLYING. The 4% are definitely a big improvement over those Skechers, but it's the light cushioning that is the biggest difference maker. The height on those AlphaFlys are absurd.

           

          Interesting thing is - if it's the plate, then the Zoomfly now has the same plate, and nobody is claiming "unfair" with that shoe.  If it's the foam, then the Zoom X Pegasus has the same foam, and nobody is claiming "unfair" with that shoe.

           

          So...assuming for the sake of debate that there is a amazing no-way-you-can-compete-with-out-these advantage to the Vaporfly, then it has to come not from the plate or the foam, but from the combination. Which is a much harder thing to regulate.  Though I guess you could ban the combination - a parallel would be in equestrian sport, where you can give your horse banamine, or bute, but not a combination of the two.

           

          Going to a broader discussion - my take has always been that rules in a sport are always somewhat arbitrary, and that someone shouldn't be penalized if they follow the rules.  For example, the placement of a start/finish or turn cone is decided by whatever decision the course measurer decides to make.  And once that cone is placed, there's no moral obligation to give the cone 20 feet clearance.

           

          Similarly, there are people who won't race on caffeine, even though it's clearly legal to do so.  I think that's fine, even though I use caffeinated gels.  I don't judge them if they don't judge me.  I won't race on oral prednisone even though I'm clearly eligible for a TUE; but I know others who have gotten TUEs to race on pred, and I don't judge them (unless they are faking the need for the pred).

           

          The important thing to me, is knowing the rules and following them, and not judging or labeling as "cheaters" those who make different choices but are in compliance with the rules..  Of course, separate from that is the question about "what should be allowed."  And to that point, I lean towards MMC's point that there really should be some standard for shoes, other than "we know it when we see it" - that would give clarity.

           

          I actually see parallels between the shoe debate and the intersex and transgender athlete debates.    In each case, having a clear standard for "what is a fair shoe" or "what qualifies an athlete to compete in the women's division" would go a long way towards eliminating allegations of cheating and unfair competition.

           

          As for PRs, everybody can set their own rules, since PRs are personal.  But...similar to above, that doesn't mean that I can't disagree with your choice of what qualifies for a PR Smile

           

          [for the record, I count point-to-point courses as PRs, but they have to have a net drop of 3.25 m/km (that's the OTQ standard) and they must be run on a certified course.  I ran a 5:08 mile a few years back on a hilariously downhill course - that time has a big asterisk]

          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

           

          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

          darkwave


          Mother of Cats

            DW - how are you feeling, ready to go? What's the goal?

             

            Shaky, with a headache.  Which means it's show time.  Smile

             

            Ortho OKed the race - not going to do any damage.  I did get a short acting cortisone shot in the shoulder yesterday morning (under the lower tip of the shoulderblade, which is where the pain is) - that should last me through the weekend, and then I start PT.

             

            [NB - I would not normally do a cortisone shot to run a race - but everyone, including my coach and the doctor, agreed that this was the rare circumstance where it makes sense - the injury wasn't a running-related repetitive stress injury, but traumatic upper body.  My shoulder is secondary to running - it's not like I'm getting a cortisone shot in order to do a long distance swim or an all day yoga fest.  There's really no risk to a cortisone shot in the shoulder, since I'm not going to be placing a ton of heavy weight stress on it.]

             

            Registered for Richmond by phone from the doctor's office, and then headed down.

             

            As for goals, while I have times in mind during a training cycle, when I get to race day, I always shift to a mindset of simply running the best race I have in me, and see what time that gives me.  So this race is no different.  Since I race by feel, not pace, there are no adjustments to pace to be made.

             

            I haven't ruled out the possibility of running well here - I'm fit, it's a fast course, and the race temps are great - 40 degrees, dry, overcast.

             

            We are going to have a strong headwind (15 MPH) for part of the course (15-21, parts of which are uphill) and then the conclusion of the course will be with a strong tailwind, and include some nice downhill.  So...my plan is to go out conservatively and feel my way into the race for the first few miles, then hit a groove.  I'll look for people to work with for 15-21, if not, I'll have to back off to maintain even effort.  Then bring it home strong from 21 to the end.

            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

             

            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

              Interesting thing is - if it's the plate, then the Zoomfly now has the same plate, and nobody is claiming "unfair" with that shoe.  If it's the foam, then the Zoom X Pegasus has the same foam, and nobody is claiming "unfair" with that shoe.

               

              My hunch is that the plate is necessary, but not sufficient.  If I were in charge I would just outlaw the plates and let any cushioning be ok.

               

              I don't really care about amateurs' PRs, but I don't like the pro record books being mucked up.... e.g. I would really like to know how fast Kipchoge could go in normal shoes.  The broader arguments seem like obfuscation to me.

              Swim5599


                My hunch is that the plate is necessary, but not sufficient.  If I were in charge I would just outlaw the plates and let any cushioning be ok.

                 

                I don't really care about amateurs' PRs, but I don't like the pro record books being mucked up.... e.g. I would really like to know how fast Kipchoge could go in normal shoes.  The broader arguments seem like obfuscation to me.

                How fast would Kipchoge run in “regular” shoes?  That’s simple.  Faster then any human being ever has in “regular” shoes

                HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04 

                Andres1045


                   

                  I don't really care about amateurs' PRs, but I don't like the pro record books being mucked up.... e.g. I would really like to know how fast Kipchoge could go in normal shoes.  The broader arguments seem like obfuscation to me.

                  This is interesting, and I find my self on the opposite side, yet with likely very similar reasoning. I don't really care about what the pros are doing. Kipchoge is undoubtedly the best right now (beating everyone, and all of his competitors either run in the same Nike shoes or run in other brand prototypes that are nearly the same), and very likely is up there with the best in history, if not the best. But I'm not a big enough fan of the sport to concern myself too much about his specific spot.

                   

                  On the other hand, it does create plenty of confusion at our level. Let's say I keep my s$%t together and pull off a 3 minute PR after nearly 3 years of sucking at the marathon, and I did it in the 4%'s. Was it because I finally got myself back in shape? Or was it just the shoes? Or when a friend finally has a break through in the marathon. It sucks that in the back of my mind I start to think "Well, he wasn't able to do that with his Asics last year."

                   

                  Like Mikkey, I think most of us are up-front about the advantage it creates. He's lucky enough (although it was a lot of work, not really luck) to have essentially the same time with the shoes as without. Not all of us have that.

                   

                  That's the confusion that the shoes create that I don't like. And by no means do I have a solution for it. To me it's just one of those things that's there, that's not really anyone's fault (I certainly don't blame Nike for creating a great shoe that's within the rules), but it sucks. I would never say wearing them is cheating, or even look ever-so-slightly down on someone for wearing them. But that doesn't mean that I like the mess it has created.

                  Upcoming races: Madrid (half) April 2020

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                    But....do we ban all plates?  Or just certain ones?

                     

                    Mizuno shoes have "wave plates" - it's part of their schtick, and has been for years.

                     

                    Versions 1 and 2 of the Adios Boost had a torsion plate that runs the length of the shoe (the length of that has been reduced in later versions of the shoe, so that it flexes at ball of the foot.

                     

                    Are we going to start mandating that all shoes be flexible?  (if so, then ugh....I like stiff shoes).

                     

                    As for Kipchoge, he ran 2:04 flat in streaks with the insoles hanging out of the sides.....

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    flyrunnr


                       

                      Hey Cinnamon! Good to see you again. 

                      https://www.strava.com/athletes/2507437

                      PR's - 5K - 17:57 (2017) | 10K - 38:06 (2016)  | 13.1 1:23:55 (2019)  | 26.2  2:58:46 (2017)

                      2020 Goals - Sub-2:55 Marathon                       Up Next: TBD, Boston on 9/14?

                       

                      Running Problem


                      Curmudgeon

                         

                         

                         

                        As for goals, while I have times in mind during a training cycle, when I get to race day, I always shift to a mindset of simply running the best race I have in me, and see what time that gives me.  So this race is no different.  Since I race by feel, not pace, there are no adjustments to pace to be made.

                         

                        We are going to have a strong headwind (15 MPH) for part of the course (15-21, parts of which are uphill) and then the conclusion of the course will be with a strong tailwind, and include some nice downhill.  So...my plan is to go out conservatively and feel my way into the race for the first few miles, then hit a groove.  I'll look for people to work with for 15-21, if not, I'll have to back off to maintain even effort.  Then bring it home strong from 21 to the end.

                         

                        I wish there was a way to learn this or understand it more. I might make it a goal after I complete this time goal I have. Maybe something shorter than a full marathon though.

                        Kick ass this weekend. Hope you find a crowd to run with for those 6 or so miles.

                         

                        Rovatti I kind of agree with you on all that. I'd like to see Tom Brady's championships have a giant * for a few of them. tuck rule, deflate gate, end of the tuck rule. I guess it isn't cheating when they create a specific rule for you in the middle of a game, and find you innocent of using equipment against the rules.

                         

                        Andres I'm kind of going through that now. I'm not in the vapor flys, and I seem to be in great shape relative to previous training and race results. Is it a result from doing a marathon in October, then april, then December? Is it the carbon fibre plate? Extra miles? nutrition? the weather? I think it comes down to being everything and if you pull off your 3 minute PR it is the shoes, and getting back into shape, and the course, and it all helped you break through that point. I'm sure my Altras helped me go from a 3:23 at CIM to a 3:13 because I did lots of training in them and got into better shape. Just like I'm sure Revel Mt. Charleston helped get me to a 3:05:22 and push the confidence level to the maximum for a solid BQ - 5 attempt.

                         

                         

                        whatever the rules for shoes are the shoe manufacturers will find a way "around" them. The rules don't always say what you can do, just what you cannot. "It's not a plate it's a bunch of foam packed really tightly together to simulate a plate, but it isn't actually a plate. What is the definition of plate?" Yeah, I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. I'd probably call someone a "dumb fawk" in the courtroom.

                        2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

                        CalBears


                          Talking about unfair advantages - all I care about for the next year+ is that on April 19th 2021 Mikey and I were of the same weight and height, wear the same shoes and be the same age - then it would be considered a fair duel.

                          paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                            But....do we ban all plates?  Or just certain ones?

                             

                            It's true there are plates that don't give an advantage (like Mizuno's waves).  I'd start with banning carbon plates, but the rule might have to be adjusted.  I like stiff shoes too, but you don't need carbon plates to get that.

                             

                            I don't buy the reductionist arguments... just put on a pair of VFs and you immediately know they are categorically different than any other shoe that has ever existed.

                             

                            ... As for Kipchoge, no doubt he is the GOAT marathoner, but I would still like to know exactly how fast he is now in regular shoes.  (Recall that Wilson Kipsang ran 2:03:23 without VFs)

                            ... and I think Zersenay Tadese would still be the record holder (and would've broken 58:00), if he had run in VFs

                            ... and I wonder what Paula could've done.

                            etc, etc

                            Andres1045


                              Talking about unfair advantages - all I care about for the next year+ is that on April 19th 2021 Mikey and I were of the same weight and height, wear the same shoes and be the same age - then it would be considered a fair duel.

                              Setting up excuses in case you lose?

                              Upcoming races: Madrid (half) April 2020


                              Elite Jogger

                                Talking about unfair advantages - all I care about for the next year+ is that on April 19th 2021 Mikey and I were of the same weight and height, wear the same shoes and be the same age - then it would be considered a fair duel.

                                 

                                Wait, I hope you aren’t expecting me to waddle to the Boston start line at 168 Ibs and eating a McDonalds triple burger???  No, YOU need to get down to 146 Ibs...and we ARE the same age!

                                5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)