Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
JTReeves - I'm so sorry this isn't resolving. It does just get to the point where you want answers. It's the not knowing how long that I found most frustrating with long injuries. Hang in there. And I love Slammin's award for you - in my opinion, its the most important one.
I like hearing people talk about their races that were better than their PRs. PRs are run in optimal conditions, fast courses, and now fast shoes. JTReeves' Athens, Weather's 2:49 (Celebration was it?), Mikkey's NYC, and everyone else who has had super solid races in super sub-optimal conditions or on more challenging courses. Fast Times are Fast Times but a little more spice once in awhile is a fun thing to celebrate.
10 days out - Hadley had me do a straight 10 mi MP (~ 6:30 back in the day) 10 days out from LA and I wouldn't do that again. I think the record temps slowed my race time more than that but next time I target a marathon, 10 days out I'll being doing something less than 10 MP. Taper has not been a thing I've had to concern myself with for awhile! Hoping that will change in 2020.
Andres - why have I been asking about Barcelona
Mother of Cats
We can be very stubborn on this board in terms of our training. Some folks are stubborn with over-tapering, under-tapering, not resetting after cycles, running too much speed for the marathon, running too many workouts, not running enough workouts, etc. Unless you are absolutely crushing every race you run, we should all be open to new ideas. …. Maybe some folks joined for a different reason, but I joined these boards to learn, and I’m shocked by how many times people will bang on the same door over and over, and wonder why their times aren’t getting better.
We can be very stubborn on this board in terms of our training. Some folks are stubborn with over-tapering, under-tapering, not resetting after cycles, running too much speed for the marathon, running too many workouts, not running enough workouts, etc. Unless you are absolutely crushing every race you run, we should all be open to new ideas.
….
Maybe some folks joined for a different reason, but I joined these boards to learn, and I’m shocked by how many times people will bang on the same door over and over, and wonder why their times aren’t getting better.
I both agree and disagree with this (definitely agree with the learning part). My personal take is that about 85 percent of training and racing success is adherence to universal principles, but the other 15 percent is individual and personal to each runner. We all need to train some and rest some, but different runners need different balances (and even the same runner may need a different balance at different points in their lives).
The need for taper is universal, but the structure of that taper can differ among runners (I know friends who can just sit on the couch for a week, and then go run a great race. Not so for me or for others). Similar for the structure of workouts, how frequently one races, how one structures their easy days (I have teammates of my same ability who get very flat and stale if they try to run as slowly as I do on my easy run days).
People differ. Because of physiology, because of age, because of gender, because of a million things going on outside of running. Heck, I've noted that people who ran short stuff high school and college on the track (800-1500 type stuff) generally do well with a slightly different type of marathon training from adult onset runners.
The benefit of these boards, and of other boards, and of following people on Strava, and of training with others, is that you get to watch multiple experiments play out, and learn. And you get to see that different people can get to the same goal following different paths.
My overall point - it's incredibly helpful to watch, read, learn, consider. And then to experiment. But it's also important to keep a sense of self, to review one's own past experiences, and to remember that what works for one can be a setup for failure for another.
Choose your path wisely, with education and an open mind, but also with confidence and a sense of self.
***
re: thread titles - I like "Marathon Race Training" because it removes the time aspect from it. One's marathon PR and what one has to offer are not perfectly correlated.
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Also - dropping off my week just to dump it:
61 miles, 18 "miles" of pool-running, and 1000 yards of swimmingM: Yoga and 9 "miles" pool-running. T: 9 miles very easy (8:56), upperbody weights/core, 3 miles very easy (8:31), followed by drills and 4 strides.W: 14 miles, including a track workout of 4800, 3200, 1600, 2x200 in 19:53 (6:43/6:40/6:30); 13:08 (6:38/6:30), 6:24, 43, and 43. 5-6 minute jogging recovery between the tempo sections; full recovery between 200s. [underdressed for this one and froze]Th: Upper body weights/core and 9 "miles" pool-runningF: 5 miles very easy (9:11), yoga, 6 miles very easy (8:48), followed by drills and 4 strides.Sa: 17 miles, including a workout of 4, 3, 2, 1 miles at marathon effort with 1 mile float in between. Splits were:4 miles: 27:29 (6:54/7:02/6:45/6:48 - average 6:52 pace)3 miles: 20:16 (6:45/6:49/6:42 - average 6:45 pace)2 miles: 13:23 (6:41/6:42 - average 6:42 pace)1 mile: 6:40.Recoveries between 7:41-7:52 after each.Su: 7 miles very easy (8:55), followed with drills, four strides, and yoga.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Some really great results this year from this thread.
Boyd gets my vote for the performance of the year. For the guy who says he likes to positive split his marathons because it suits his strengths, that was one pretty dead even 2:30 marathon.
the key training keys for me. Pay someone that knows a whole helluva lot more about running then I do and then go out and execute. Pretty simple.
HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04
Mmmm Bop
Totally agree.
JT - Sorry to hear that the injury is still lingering and hope you get it sorted soon and off the bike! Thanks for starting the thread/updating the list and all your support throughout the year. 👍.
5k - 17:53 (4/19) 10k - 37:53 (11/18) Half - 1:23:18 (4/19) Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)
DW: spot on and this might be one of the best summarized posts on this thread this year! At the end of the day, whether we PR or not this sport of running (for all us) is just pushing yourself to whatever your maximum potential may lie. There will always be faster guys and girls out there!
Happy Holidays everyone!
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
You are paying someone to coach you and it’s pretty simple? Maybe in 2020 you will elaborate more and explain.
Merry Christmas y’all.
RIP Milkman
DW - maybe I didn’t elaborate well enough in my post, but I actually think we’re in agreement. My point wasn’t that anyone who tapers differently than me is being stubborn, but rather I’m not sure enough people have truly experimented with their taper to understand what will work for them. I will, however, say that I think there are some universal things we should all be doing and shouldn’t be doing as part of the taper. We can’t just go to the “I’m doing what’s right for me” card if you’re not 100% sure what you’re doing is actually right for you.
I think a perfect example of this is someone doing a very long run 2 weeks before the marathon (Andres this may get to your question as well). Mostly what I hear from folks who do that is usually something along the lines of how they either need that run to feel that their legs will hold up during the end parts of the marathon, or that they can recover quickly from it. Often, these are some of the same folks that feel they “need” a 25+ mile long run because they tend to fade at the end of marathons, although obviously not necessarily the same.
Fading at the end stages of a marathon can sometimes be endurance, but not necessarily. How many of us run 5Ks were we start fading in the last 1K? Nobody on this board would look at that and say “boy I need more long runs” because we’re all running so much. Fading in and of itself doesn’t mean a lack of endurance, and I think too often we look at performance in races and fail to actually diagnose the appropriate cause. Just because you are slowing down in the last few miles of a marathon does NOT mean it was endurance related.
Second, being able to recover from a run doesn’t mean that it was a good run during a taper. Take Andres’s example: he can recover better from a standard 21 miler than 16 miler with quality. That may absolutely be true. But that doesn’t mean it’s the appropriate run to do. I put a chart up on this forum a few months ago showing that you gain benefit from long runs 4-6 weeks after you run them, but only 10-12 days after a threshold run. This is why you shouldn’t be running 20+ mile long runs just 2 weeks out. It’s not about whether you can recover, but rather that you can actually still gain some benefit from doing a good quality threshold run. There’s also some evidence that long runs take longer to recover from than when you “feel” you’re recovered, which ties into the 4-6 week period I was mentioning. So maybe for him, just a 16-18 mile “long” run makes sense 2 weeks out. But smashing another 22 miler doesn’t make sense, and he’s done a lot of those this cycle very well (not picking on you Andres at all, you just happened to post on this )
So at the end of the day, I agree with your premise: we’re all different and need to execute differently. But I think too often people go to the same well and question why their marathon performances aren’t getting better. That’s all I was getting at.
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Problem Child
MY favorite part of running is there are so many ways to do it wrong. Even when you're doing it right someone will tell you you're doing it wrong. Some people do it without forums and online friends giving them advice. Some people stick to a pace so hard they're potentially holding themselves back. SOME PEOPLE RUN BY FEEL! I do think there are a lot of people who do "easy" runs too hard because it "feels" easy and either don't notice a difference in their hard running, or just don't do hard running. One RB swears to me he's about to go anaerobic and that's too fast when we go running and his instant pace is indicative of my mile average pace. I have told him a few times that he should slow down since right below anaerobic would be lactate threshold and that's not any better. I just run now that I'm not training for anything and some spreadsheet doesn't matter for a while.
I tried to hit a 7:00/mi pace yesterday for ONE mile. NOPE! Apparently that gear has taken the rest of the year off like the Incredible Hulk in Avengers End Game.
Many of us aren't sure what the hell point you are trying to make and no matter how we guess, it always seems to be something else. Which usually means a person is doing it on purpose.
VDOT 53.37
5k18:xx | Marathon 2:55:22
JMac - I'm certainly one that's open to suggestions. But I wonder why it is that you've isolated the taper as the most crucial element of a marathon cycle, and the idea of a LR two weeks out being one of the worst decisions possible. As for the LR, is it:
There will have to be an award for that comment! Seriously, you could decide to run an easy 20 miler or a 15 miler with some quality 2 weeks out and it will make very little difference to your race. At this stage it will be waaay more important that you go into the race with a positive attitude as you’ve put in the work and have nothing to fear!
I agree with this, and it was very well put. And I also think that to get to that 15 percent, you need to sometimes question the 85 percent--make sure a particular principle applies best to you. There have been quite a few examples of that on these boards over the years since I started participating. And I've learned that there really are few absolutes when it comes to training (that's why it was so funny to hear Slammin give such a strong absolute that was applied to a broad category of runners).
When it comes to the long run, one of the best examples was Patrick. I recall him asking about mixing up his plan. He said he always struggled in the late stages of the marathon even though he ran high mileage and ran within his abilities. He thought he would give running 26.3 mile long runs a chance and wanted feedback. Most people said he was crazy or that it simply wouldn't work--no known plan used that kind of a long run. He tried it. It worked. He went from 2:50 to sub 2:40. Following that, several other people tried it too. It didn't work as well.
Mikkey also would pace his Brighton marathon two weeks before London. People ridiculed him for doing that. He always raced London well, as well or better than other marathons that he didn't run a 3:15 marathon-long-run two weeks before. There's zero chance I could pull that off, and most of us couldn't. He could.
Multi ran everything within 30s to a minute of his marathon pace when he was in shape, and he'd get his mileage up close to 100 per week. He didn't have a lot of workouts that had paces much faster than MP. He ran great marathons (I think 2:44???). Same with Dan. His easy runs were always close to 7, but he also had big mileage and big quality. He took his marathon time from 3:10 to 2:40 in 4 or 5 years.
All these examples are extremes that won't apply to a vast majority or runners. The much more well established principles will apply to them.
JMac, you're one of the guys that have done really well and continue to see improvement sticking to many of the established JD principles. The only thing you did was slightly adjust your easy pace to something easier than easy. That likely didn't directly make you faster, just kept you from being injured (which obviously led to a more consistent cycle which made you faster). I don't know that you really need to expand much outside of that safe zone.
I don't really care what a chart says about the benefits of a long run, and I don't buy the idea that on day 28 after a long run is when the benefits arrive on my doorstep. I know that long runs generally work as follows: I get to a new level, and they hurt and I struggle. Each one that follows is a little easier. Both in the actual run and recovering from it. At the beginning of a cycle, a 15 miler is a long run. By the end, that should be a medium long run. So to me, running one more 21 miler isn't going to be a huge stress. I want 21 to feel just a little bit easier. I've only run 20 miles 15 days before a marathon once, but it worked out well. It was my PR marathon that I finished strong enough, and felt totally fine to walk another 4 or 5 miles that day pushing my kids around in a stroller.
Speaking of, Cinnamon, if you're running the Barcelona marathon, that's awesome! It's a great race. Great course, with a lot of fast runners. I'll actually be there that day, but getting in a little late to cheer you on. I think I arrive early afternoon.
Upcoming races: Boston
Second, being able to recover from a run doesn’t mean that it was a good run during a taper.
I agree strongly with this. Put another way...just because you can do something doesn't mean you should (this applies not just to taper, but also to training in general).
But I think too often people go to the same well and question why their marathon performances aren’t getting better. That’s all I was getting at.
Agree with this too. I think it is important to play with different things, and always be fine tuning. At the same time, I think if you run enough marathons, life will force you to experiment, because things rarely go exactly the way you plan.
I listen to the Magness/Marcus podcast on training, and they made a point some time ago that really resonated with me. To run a great race you need to a) get fit and b) be able to express your fitness on the day it matters.
To my mind, the marathon training cycle is about getting fit. And the taper is about setting yourself up to express your fitness on race day. Approached from that perspective, it makes sense that one might do something during taper that seems a bit odd to others, since it's too close to the race to improve fitness. But...if that choice sets someone up to best express their fitness on race day, then there's value in it for that purpose.
For myself, since I won't be able to race a half-marathon 3 weeks before my next marathon, I'm going to race a 5k two weeks out. Not because I anticipate that it will improve my marathon fitness any, but because I know from past experience that I need to have another race not too far from the marathon in order to be able to express my fitness at the marathon.
But again, just to circle back to Jmac's point - you do need to be willing to play with stuff, because sometimes what actually works for you is counter-intuitive and even a bit out of your comfort zone.
As one example - my coach preaches massive carb-loading before marathons, and this works for some. But after three bad marathons in a row where I just felt sluggish and flat on the start line, I decided to experiment. My thinking was that I always felt great at the end of my 20 mile long runs (with the last 7 at marathon effort) when I didn't carb-load especially hard, but then awful on race day, like a bloated turkey. So I decided to race a marathon with my diet for the last few days matching what it looked like in the middle of my cycle when I had great long runs. No pre-race bingeing.
And...the marathon went great.
And a few years after that, I was forced to experiment even further when I got really nauseous the day before a marathon, and could barely get anything down. So I ate very little the day before the marathon, and then managed to eat most of my normal pre-race breakfast that morning. And went out and PR'd.
So now I really don't carb-load the days before a race (I do up it ever so slightly), and I don't eat dinner the evening before. Works for me. And is an example of how I learned what works individually for me through a combination of both voluntary and forced experimentation.
Well...You would think so... Not throwing anything at Swim, but I know Swim since probably 2013 or so and, as far as I remember, the training was always the same - scary boatload of miles with tons, just tons of quality... Seriously, Swim, I am not gaining anything from saying that, but I would strongly recommend you to think about changing something, maybe drastically - like only running MLRs the whole week by feel and having maybe one LT workout per week and one LR. Believe me, I am not picking at you - I am saying that just because I care - that's what I learned from early life in USSR - good people/coaches/teachers get emotional and you may interpret it as "abusive" many times because they care (not always, of course) - if they are not emotional, if they are not upset with a poor grades/mistakes in the game/ etc - that's because they do not care, imho. I am so sick and tired of US style of "you are doing great" / "keep up great job" - in situations like swim meets my daughter was participating in - saying that BS to kids who were placing 10th in the weakest heats... I swear it doesn't make those kids any good...
Btw, thanks guys on the tip about "no-purpose paces" - that was fun to read but it only lasted 4 or 5 pages Btw, page 19 I think Mikkey saying to Swim exactly the same I was trying to say few times - not sure why Swim got upset - because what Mikkey said was the truth - and I am pretty sure Mikkey said it because he is observing it for the same number of years I do and I am pretty sure he was not trying to get rude about it.
As for the paces - yeah, I think Slamming said something which he didn't think through and later on he just didn't want to back off Stating the exact paces range was a mistake - everybody understood what Slamming was trying to say but that should be said in more general terms. I can explain with my example. I am always using heart rates, you know that - and some trying to make fun of it - but, funny, enough, what I call "using HRs", some of you guys calling "running by feel". It's all just a game of words. Anyway - when I run recovery, that means I usually run under 130 bpm, GA is under 140-145 bpm and endurance/LR is about 145-155 bpm range. I really do not stick to a pace - pace is just a derivative of how you feel (or your HR). So... If during my LR I happen to run at my HR range and the pace would be 7:10 or 7:25- so be it - I would be absolutely happy with that. (The problem - I just can't run that fast And Andres also said - pace was not the main thing for many of the guys he mentioned in his post.
To my mind, the marathon training cycle is about getting fit. And the taper is about setting yourself up to express your fitness on race day.
Kind of disagree... It's much easier to screw training cycle than taper. To not screw taper you just should not be stupid, there is much more to not screwing training cycle. Plus, if training cycle is about to getting fit, I would just run 6 miles a day and thinking about nothing. Plus, I strongly believe there is even more to "bringing it on the race day" than just training and taper - something that you only discover during the race
Wait.... I thought it was Andres's point
As one example - my coach preaches massive carb-loading before marathons, and this works for some. But after three bad marathons in a row where I just felt sluggish and flat on the start line, I decided to experiment. My thinking was that I always felt great at the end of my 20 mile long runs (with the last 7 at marathon effort) when I didn't carb-load especially hard, but then awful on race day, like a bloated turkey. So I decided to race a marathon with my diet for the last few days matching what it looked like in the middle of my cycle when I had great long runs. No pre-race bingeing. And...the marathon went great.
Just confirms my experience - most of the coaches know sh*t about you - they might care but they just do not have time (or desire, or brains) to learn you better. Seriously... Had one experience with one coach - great world class runner - knew sh&t about me and didn't seem to care to know more, me of course - my fee was not enough to support her in that
Have a great friend, amazing runner, great coach to running community, especially kids, great marathon runner and just a legend as an ultra runner. Took a guy who was on a brink of running sub 3. One cycle - all good - but no sub 3 at the end. Next cycle - the same workouts, a lot of quality, mileage lingers around 60. No cigar at the end. I am talking to the coach, talking to the runner saying - come on guys, you need to tweak things a little bit - your LR is not long enough, you have too much quality, let's try to do less quality and more mileage. No... The guy is stubborn and does only things he knows about and the things that worked for him! But his runner is not him! He is different! 3rd cycle - the same training the same result. The guy is 54 and he drops the coach and his dreams about sub 3
My training is going ok - working on my base mileage currently.
paces PRs - 5K - 5:48 / 10K - 6:05 / HM - 6:14 / FM - 6:26 per mile
Great couple of posts! This is what I love about these boards
I'm officially into the period of my taper where just about every run feels harder than it should. Could also be from a lack of sleep and change in diet the last few days (i.e. Christmas etc ...). I know the fitness is there so just one more week to go to get the body rested and ready. JMac should be proud so far as I really haven't done anything stupid yet
Next up will be worrying about where the heck winter went for about two thirds of the country??? We've been having morning lows in the lower 70's (TDP of 130-140) just about every day recently here in FL and I know much of the northeast has been at least 15-20 degrees above normal recently I'm not asking for downright cold weather (would be nice), but something down closer to normal would be sufficient!
When it comes to the long run, one of the best examples was Patrick. I recall him asking about mixing up his plan. He said he always struggled in the late stages of the marathon even though he ran high mileage and ran within his abilities. He thought he would give running 26.3 mile long runs a chance and wanted feedback. Most people said he was crazy or that it simply wouldn't work--no known plan used that kind of a long run. He tried it. It worked. He went from 2:50 to sub 2:40. Following that, several other people tried it too. It didn't work as well. Mikkey also would pace his Brighton marathon two weeks before London. People ridiculed him for doing that. He always raced London well, as well or better than other marathons that he didn't run a 3:15 marathon-long-run two weeks before. There's zero chance I could pull that off, and most of us couldn't. He could.
I barely noticed Patrick before he started doing those marathon distance sub 3 runs.....then it was WOW!!!
Btw, I’ve always paced Brighton knowing that it isn’t the ideal scenario going into a taper and accepted that. In 2013 I paced 3:30 one week before London and ran a 2:51 which was a 3min PR at the time and actually did better than I expected. Other races I’ve gone with a fairly standard training cycle/ taper and felt rubbish on race day. I also think that some things that worked for me a few years ago wouldn’t necessarily work now...so I don’t think anyone should ever say that they’ve found the perfect formula. 😁
Well...You would think so... Not throwing anything at Swim, but I know Swim since probably 2013 or so and, as far as I remember, the training was always the same - scary boatload of miles with tons, just tons of quality... Seriously, Swim, I am not gaining anything from saying that, but I would strongly recommend you to think about changing something, maybe drastically - like only running MLRs the whole week by feel and having maybe one LT workout per week and one LR. Believe me, I am not picking at you - I am saying that just because I care - that's what I learned from early life in USSR - good people/coaches/teachers get emotional and you may interpret it as "abusive" many times because they care (not always, of course) - if they are not emotional, if they are not upset with a poor grades/mistakes in the game/ etc - that's because they do not care, imho. I am so sick and tired of US style of "you are doing great" / "keep up great job" - in situations like swim meets my daughter was participating in - saying that BS to kids who were placing 10th in the weakest heats... I swear it doesn't make those kids any good... Btw, thanks guys on the tip about "no-purpose paces" - that was fun to read but it only lasted 4 or 5 pages Btw, page 19 I think Mikkey saying to Swim exactly the same I was trying to say few times - not sure why Swim got upset - because what Mikkey said was the truth - and I am pretty sure Mikkey said it because he is observing it for the same number of years I do and I am pretty sure he was not trying to get rude about it. As for the paces - yeah, I think Slamming said something which he didn't think through and later on he just didn't want to back off Stating the exact paces range was a mistake - everybody understood what Slamming was trying to say but that should be said in more general terms. I can explain with my example. I am always using heart rates, you know that - and some trying to make fun of it - but, funny, enough, what I call "using HRs", some of you guys calling "running by feel". It's all just a game of words. Anyway - when I run recovery, that means I usually run under 130 bpm, GA is under 140-145 bpm and endurance/LR is about 145-155 bpm range. I really do not stick to a pace - pace is just a derivative of how you feel (or your HR). So... If during my LR I happen to run at my HR range and the pace would be 7:10 or 7:25- so be it - I would be absolutely happy with that. (The problem - I just can't run that fast And Andres also said - pace was not the main thing for many of the guys he mentioned in his post. Kind of disagree... It's much easier to screw training cycle than taper. To not screw taper you just should not be stupid, there is much more to not screwing training cycle. Plus, if training cycle is about to getting fit, I would just run 6 miles a day and thinking about nothing. Plus, I strongly believe there is even more to "bringing it on the race day" than just training and taper - something that you only discover during the race Wait.... I thought it was Andres's point Just confirms my experience - most of the coaches know sh*t about you - they might care but they just do not have time (or desire, or brains) to learn you better. Seriously... Had one experience with one coach - great world class runner - knew sh&t about me and didn't seem to care to know more, me of course - my fee was not enough to support her in that Have a great friend, amazing runner, great coach to running community, especially kids, great marathon runner and just a legend as an ultra runner. Took a guy who was on a brink of running sub 3. One cycle - all good - but no sub 3 at the end. Next cycle - the same workouts, a lot of quality, mileage lingers around 60. No cigar at the end. I am talking to the coach, talking to the runner saying - come on guys, you need to tweak things a little bit - your LR is not long enough, you have too much quality, let's try to do less quality and more mileage. No... The guy is stubborn and does only things he knows about and the things that worked for him! But his runner is not him! He is different! 3rd cycle - the same training the same result. The guy is 54 and he drops the coach and his dreams about sub 3 My training is going ok - working on my base mileage currently.
The last two marathons I have trained for I have avg d nearly 20 miles less a week then I used to. And I pay someone to keep track of my ramp rate so I don’t over extend so yes that’s significantly different then things I was doing before and it resulted in my PR last year and I was certainly in position to PR again this year. As for the taper both times I felt great during the races so I must be Doing something right. I’m not nearly as physically gifted as others so I have to run a lot more and until
i get drastically slower I’m willing to put in the work.