2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 674 times)

darkwave


Mother of Cats

     

    Kind of disagree... It's much easier to screw training cycle than taper. To not screw taper you just should not be stupid, there is much more to not screwing training cycle. Plus, if training cycle is about to getting fit, I would just run 6 miles a day and thinking about nothing. Plus, I strongly believe there is even more to "bringing it on the race day" than just training and taper - something that you only discover during the race Smile

     

    Well....6 miles a day will not get us as fit as the training most of us do.  I know I would get badly out of shape on a consistent cycle of 6 miles each day.....

     

    As for "bringing it on the race day" - I believe a properly executed taper is what gets you there.  We've all had days where we are "on" and days where we are "off".  You can still perform well on an off day, but there's a certain magic from an on day, where you just hit flow.  And there are things I can do during taper that maximize my chances of having an on day.

     

     

     

     

    Just confirms my experience - most of the coaches know sh*t about you - they might care but they just do not have time (or desire, or brains) to learn you better. Seriously... Had one experience with one coach - great world class runner - knew sh&t about me and didn't seem to care to know more, me of course - my fee was not enough to support her in that Smile

     

    Have a great friend, amazing runner, great coach to running community, especially kids, great marathon runner and just a legend as an ultra runner. Took a guy who was on a brink of running sub 3. One cycle - all good - but no sub 3 at the end. Next cycle - the same workouts, a lot of quality, mileage lingers around 60. No cigar at the end. I am talking to the coach, talking to the runner saying - come on guys, you need to tweak things a little bit - your LR is not long enough, you have too much quality, let's try to do less quality and more mileage. No... The guy is stubborn and does only things he knows about and the things that worked for him! But his runner is not him! He is different! 3rd cycle - the same training the same result. The guy is 54 and he drops the coach and his dreams about sub 3 Sad

     

     

     

    I do not personally believe in doing a coach's bidding unquestioningly.

     

    My coach and I disagree on this, BTW , but it was how I learned in my previous sport.  In horse sports, you are supposed to learn theory and ultimately be able to make your own decisions, requesting guidance as appropriate.  I was surprised when I started running with a team and learned that the habit, developed through years on a high school or college running team, was just to do what you were told, without discussion or thought or question.

     

    At the same time, I think that there is an immense amount of benefit that one can get from an outside pair of eyes (in horse sports, we called it "the person on the ground.").  And it can be really useful to get that feedback and to listen to it, even if you ultimately reject it.  I do not do everything my coach instructs, and we have several points where we disagree strongly.  But I always consider his advice, and consider it valuable, since he is someone who actually sees me run in person several times a week, and has done so for nearly a decade.

     

    [at the risk of hurting feelings here, I give my coach's feedback much more weight than I do input I get from message boards, for the same reason that I give much more weight to my doctor's advice than to discussions on internet health sites.  That in-person, regular, repeated contact is very important.]

     

    I do think that the situation you highlight is one that I see again and again.  Coach has a program, that has worked for him/her and several of those he/she has coached.  Coach thus believes strongly in that program.  And if the program doesn't work for the athlete, it's because there's something wrong with the athlete or the athlete isn't trying hard enough or the athlete is mentally weak.  Never because it's just not the right program for that athlete.  Which goes back to my point about the 85% and the 15%.  Unless you're very lucky, a coach's standard program or a training plan out of the box/book will only get you to that first 85%.  The last 15% has to be uncovered via trial and error.

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

     

    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

    Running Problem


    Curmudgeon

       

      I do think that the situation you highlight is one that I see again and again.  Coach has a program, that has worked for him/her and several of those he/she has coached.  Coach thus believes strongly in that program.  And if the program doesn't work for the athlete, it's because there's something wrong with the athlete or the athlete isn't trying hard enough or the athlete is mentally weak.  Never because it's just not the right program for that athlete.  Which goes back to my point about the 85% and the 15%.  Unless you're very lucky, a coach's standard program or a training plan out of the box/book will only get you to that first 85%.  The last 15% has to be uncovered via trial and error.

       

      Jack Daniels 2Q ring a bell anyone?

      Hansons Advanced ring a bell anyone?

      Screw Shoes ring a bell for you darkwave?

       

      Doing the same training plan works because it's comfortable. Getting into the forum and discussing the training has helped me try new things which is what I came here for. I'm sure trying, and failing in Chicago, a JD2Q workout helped me break up my training even with things such as "running mixed paced runs" or "running for time instead of distance" which seems small but when you are forced to move a LITTLE out of the comfort zone it can really play games with someone.

       

      I think I got at least 3.5% of that final 15% from taking advice her to run by feel, try new gels, limit long runs, and not try to be in race day shape on day 1 of training. At least I didn't need to buy $250 shoes to find all that out.

      2020 Goal: Figure out the problem.

      CalBears


         

        JMac - I'm certainly one that's open to suggestions. But I wonder why it is that you've isolated the taper as the most crucial element of a marathon cycle, and the idea of a LR two weeks out being one of the worst decisions possible.

         

        Ha.... I knew it, I knew I saw it somewhere 

         

        from Brad Hudson - Run Faster from the 5K to the marathon:

         

        Marathon Plan Level 3 - 20 weeks: 56 to 87 miles per week

         

        Sunday 4 weeks out - LR 24 miles

        Sunday 3 weeks out - 1 mile easy 18 miles @MP+20 secs 1 mile easy

        Sunday 2 weeks out - LR 20 miles

        Sunday 1 week out - Progression run 14 miles last 20 minutes moderate

        paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile


        Elite Jogger

           

          Ha.... I knew it, I knew I saw it somewhere 

           

          from Brad Hudson - Run Faster from the 5K to the marathon:

           

          Marathon Plan Level 3 - 20 weeks: 56 to 87 miles per week

           

          Sunday 4 weeks out - LR 24 miles

          Sunday 3 weeks out - 1 mile easy 18 miles @MP+20 secs 1 mile easy

          Sunday 2 weeks out - LR 20 miles

          Sunday 1 week out - Progression run 14 miles last 20 minutes moderate

           

          Well that just happens to be my favourite running book!

           

          Andres - I had to check what I did 2 weeks out this year just out of curiousity and it was a 5k Parkrun (15 days out) and a 17 miler (13 days out).  We are all now waiting with bated breath what your taper will look like. 😁

          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

            I'll have to get that Hudson book, it may be one of the few my running library is missing.  I think JMac might have had me in mind when he talks about the LR 2 weeks out; I did a 22 miler (easy pace) 13 days out from my last marathon and he was voicing his disapproval of that at the time. Since I shat the bed in that race I can't strongly argue that I was right but I still think 2 weeks out an easy LR, whether 16 miles or 22, is not going to hurt most people on race day.

             

            Nimmals, Cinnamon, Weather and Mikkey: Thanks for the kind words my friends.

             

            Weather: Hope you are managing the taper well and fingers crossed the weather on the 5th is looking good!

             

            We could add another award for Most Entertaining poster; for that I would nominate Cal. 

             

            Santa got me a rowing machine for Christmas. No problem getting the HR up on that! It is a great aerobic workout and sort of full-body, though quite different muscles than running. Leg-wise the quads are worked a lot, and also the back and arms. Way, way better than the bike. I had just read the book "The Boys oin the Boat" about the 1936 Olympic rowing team from Washington that won the gold; great book and will really get you excited about rowing.  I have also been running a bit the past few days (no watch) and things are getting better. Cautiously optimistic.

            2:52:16 (2018)


            Elite Jogger


               Santa got me a rowing machine for Christmas. No problem getting the HR up on that! It is a great aerobic workout and sort of full-body, though quite different muscles than running. Leg-wise the quads are worked a lot, and also the back and arms. Way, way better than the bike. I had just read the book "The Boys oin the Boat" about the 1936 Olympic rowing team from Washington that won the gold; great book and will really get you excited about rowing.  I have also been running a bit the past few days (no watch) and things are getting better. Cautiously optimistic.

               

              Well kudos to you for making rowing sound like an interesting sport to get into! 😁

               

              I will most likely be joining you in crosstraining when I start “marathon training” next week!  I had my heel x-ray and will be seeing the Doc next week to get the verdict. The x-ray guy allowed me to have a quick peek at the scan and my gut feeling is that I’ll need an Ultrasound scan as I didn’t see any obvious signs of a heel spur (Darkwave, I’m a very good internet doctor. 😁)

               

              Cal - I could run a 3:25 BQ tomorrow, but I want to get under 3 hours so that we’re in the same corral or thereabouts. I’ve got until September next year so I’m still fairly optimistic!

               

              Weatherboy - You are going to smash it!  There is so little drama with you during taper compared to JMac. 😁

              5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

              cinnamon girl


                That's great JT! I'm surprised the rowing machine doesn't aggravate things though.

                I hope you find something out on that heel Mikkey -

                Andres - current job has denied time off for both Barcelona now and Berlin. So I'm hoping current job will become old job soon. I'm too old to live with time off requests 11 months in advance to be denied. I hope to be asking you on recommendations where to stay.

                 

                M: 10 mi w/3200 (12:18), 5 min easy, 4 x 800 (2:56) with 2:30 rec, 5 min easy, 1600 (6:14)
                TWT: OFF
                F: 17 mi (7:40)
                S: 45 min (8:48)
                S: 45 min (8:16)

                Swim5599


                  Cinnamon nothing worse then not getting requested time off.  Been there myself over the years.  Nice week

                   

                  got 70 in

                  mon 7 8:25

                  Tue 10 with 8x1:00 at threshold power (5:40)

                  wed 10 8:30

                  thurs 7 with strides 8:20

                  fri AM 4 8:30

                    Pm 10 with 8x1:00 at T power (5:35)

                  sat 7 8:33

                  sun 15 as 60 minutes easy then 2x20:00 at M power (6:20)

                  HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04 

                  CalBears


                    Mikkey - I hope you will fix that heel thing really soon, though I am not worried too much about you with your 146 lbs weight and ability to get Moose Mug time in a such a short cycle - so, I am going to train hard to have a chance to "beat" you handsomely 

                     

                    JTR - man... didn't mention about your issue much - mostly because I have no input on it - never had an injury that would not be fixed with some rest and no running. But really hope you somehow get it resolved as you seem to definitely have this love for running...

                     

                    One thread - honestly, I would say I am not a big fan of it - many times when I read maddison's or JMac's posts (or even Swim's and Weather's) I feel like I have nothing to say because it's just such a different level of paces and intensity - I just can't relate and hate to fake with "great" or "awesome" job - which obviously is by default. I think anybody who want to lurk in any of the threads still do it but make it "official" with 40 people who have to say something to each of the posters - just do not feel natural - that's why we had many threads at the RWOL times - sub 2:50, sub 3, sub 3:10, sub 3:20 and even more. There is just total disconnect, imho, between training for sub 2:50 and sub 3:20. But of course just my opinion.

                    paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                    Nimmals


                    Stotan Disciple

                      Oh I love all this talk about coaching. Just this morning I was just saying this to an athlete who I am about to take on.  I told her I had a system that includes 4 structured runs. I believe these runs are needed to improve  Strength speed and efficiency. If it works, awesome. But if there is no improvement then I build a training plan that's even more customized. It has to key in on the athletes strength and minimize their weaknesses and you see improvement.  I had someone from another forum reach out to me she has had different coaches along the years never living up to her true potential. Well these past few months I have gotten to know her speak with her very often almost daily sometimes I think I wear\weird her  out. But her running has improved tremendously. I monitor her runs and I always reach out to praise, tease or critique. I'm very easy going and she is learning my personality. I'm very involved and its the only way I coach if I have data plus I know you and understand you as a runner then you can only improve.  I took a 52 Year old runner to Sub 3. at Chicago an 18 minute PR in the process. I started working with him in July. If a coach cares and gets to know the athlete, system or no system, plan or no plan, there should be improvement. As long as you are focused on the individual.

                       

                      I am excited to see how this individual does in her next Marathon. Although she is rounding into shape and could have been a sub 3 in her upcoming goal race. I honestly don't think she trusts me enough because she hasn't been able to wrap her mind around her abilities and what she is doing. Teaching confidence and mental toughness are the most difficult part.

                       

                      Date ▼ Activity Course Type Distance Duration Pace Actions
                      12/29/2019 Run   Default 16.1 mi 2:24:59 8:59
                      12/27/2019 Run   Default 10.2 mi 1:19:30 7:50
                      12/26/2019 Run   Default 8.1 mi 1:26:13 10:41
                      12/25/2019 Run   Default 2.2 mi 21:30 9:47
                      12/25/2019 Run   Default 3.8 mi 33:46 8:52
                      12/25/2019 Run   Default 3.8 mi 29:59 8:00
                      12/25/2019 Run   Default 7.1 mi 1:00:37 8:34
                      12/24/2019 Run   Default 7.6 mi 1:13:36 9:43
                      12/23/2019 Run   Default 4.2 mi 38:48 9:12
                      12/23/2019 Run   Default 6.2 mi 43:18 6:58
                              67.4 mi      

                      Thinking should be done first, before training begins.

                      dpschumacher


                      Making a comeback

                        That is insane that they won't let you take PTO with 11 months notice.  What is the point of PTO if you can't take it even with that much notice?  It blows my mind that an employer would do that if they actually want people to stay working there.

                         

                        That's great JT! I'm surprised the rowing machine doesn't aggravate things though.

                        I hope you find something out on that heel Mikkey -

                        Andres - current job has denied time off for both Barcelona now and Berlin. So I'm hoping current job will become old job soon. I'm too old to live with time off requests 11 months in advance to be denied. I hope to be asking you on recommendations where to stay.

                         

                        M: 10 mi w/3200 (12:18), 5 min easy, 4 x 800 (2:56) with 2:30 rec, 5 min easy, 1600 (6:14)
                        TWT: OFF
                        F: 17 mi (7:40)
                        S: 45 min (8:48)
                        S: 45 min (8:16)

                        2019 Goal: Run every day Goal: Get to 165 lbs Goal: Get in shape to be able to run 2 marathons in 2020

                        2020 Goals:

                        5k:16:30

                        HM: 1:18:00

                        Marathon: 2:45:00

                        New 2020 Goal: Actually run a race, any race, just run a real legit race. **Eye Twitching**


                        Elite Jogger

                          That's great JT! I'm surprised the rowing machine doesn't aggravate things though.

                          I hope you find something out on that heel Mikkey -

                          Andres - current job has denied time off for both Barcelona now and Berlin. So I'm hoping current job will become old job soon. I'm too old to live with time off requests 11 months in advance to be denied. I hope to be asking you on recommendations where to stay.

                           

                          M: 10 mi w/3200 (12:18), 5 min easy, 4 x 800 (2:56) with 2:30 rec, 5 min easy, 1600 (6:14)
                          TWT: OFF
                          F: 17 mi (7:40)
                          S: 45 min (8:48)
                          S: 45 min (8:16)

                           

                          I would phone in sick on the Wednesday before the race and take a self certified week off. Simple. 👍

                          5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            JTReeves - hang in there (I know...what other option is there?).  I've had my own experiences with complicated-to-unwind-and-fix injuries - it's a hard road, but when you do solve the mystery it's worth it.  I really hope the progress continues.

                             

                            Cinnamon - that is ridiculous, and a beautiful example of how to lose good employees (as they are apparently about to).  If you want your employees to do their best, you need to treat them like they are valuable, and allow them to enjoy their lives outside of work.  To do anything else is ridiculously short sighted.  Not allowing vacation with 11 months notice (unless it's something like a 24/7 coverage situation, where people rotate years working on Christmas/Thanksgiving/New Years/etc) is just unacceptable.

                             

                            If you grind up people, then you lose them.  Treating employees well is the right thing to do, and it's also the wise choice from a long term management perspective.

                             

                            /end vent.

                             

                            My week: 46 miles, 21 "miles" of pool-running, and 2000 yards of swimming
                            M: Upper body weights, core, and 10 "miles" pool-running.
                            T: 12 miles, including a track workout of 8x800, 4x200 in 3:09, 3:08, 3:08, 3:10, 3:09, 3:08, 3:06, 3:06, 44, 44, 44, and 43. 2:28-2:35 recovery for the 800s; full recovery for the 200s. Followed with leg strengthwork and 500 yards recovery swimming.
                            W: 5 miles very easy (9:02).
                            Th: Yoga and 11 "miles" pool-running
                            F: 12 miles, including a track workout of 2x3200 in 12:52 (6:28/6:24) and 12:46 (6:25/6:21) with 6 minutes recovery between the two. Followed with leg strengthwork and 750 yards recovery swimming.
                            Sa: 10 miles easy (8:43), followed with drills, four strides, upper body weights/core.
                            Su: 7 miles, including 4x200 in 43, 43, 39, 38. Also four hill sprints with full recovery. Followed with 750 yards recovery swimming.

                             

                            No long run this week because I'm racing a 4 miler on Tuesday night.   And no - no goal time for this one.  This race generally ends up pretty slow since it's a slow course and held at night under street lights.  But it will be good to get back out there and race.

                             

                            The week was OK.  After Tuesday's intervals ended up being slower than I expected (I was holding back, but not that much), I went and checked my peak flows and confirmed my asthma was starting to flare up again.  Most likely because we had some bad AQ days.  Went on oral meds (prednisone) for Thursday and Friday and that got the breathing moving in the right direction, so woo.  Hopefully that trend continues.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            CalBears


                              Mikkey - forgot to mention - pretty sure you will get your sub 3 in London and probably even faster, but I urge you to get the best you can at the moment - because, you know, I hope you understand I am far from satisfied to have sub 3 as my best and plan to improve it at least couple of times next year. So, do your best 

                               

                              DW - good week, especially Friday workout - not sure I would pull it off - envious Smile

                               

                              My week was as expected - mileage base building.

                               

                              Total: 78.8 miles - 7 days x 11.2x miles at paces from 8:19 to 9:43. Will continue working on growing mitochondria and ATPs next week 

                              paces PRs - 5K - 5:55  /  10K - 6:05  /  HM - 6:14  /  FM - 6:26 per mile

                              Andres1045


                                Cinnamon - that sucks. Hope you get it figured out.

                                 

                                Mikkey - Remember, you just need to qualify by September. You usually have until January 2021 to update your qualifying time. Hope your heel sorts out soon.

                                 

                                JTReeves - Cool that you found something that interests you when it comes to cross training. Sucks you're going through that. I don't have much to say as far as encouragement goes. I dealt with a nagging injury for over 2 years before I figured out exactly what it was. It's suuuuuper frustrating. Rest. Run Easy. Exercises. Nothing helped until I diagnosed it properly.

                                 

                                Two threads v. One - I kinda agree with Cal in that there's some value in having more threads, allowing people to give more specific attention and advice to the appropriate level, but I'm also not going to actually start one or the other. So my input should be ignored. I'll let Brew figure it out when he starts the thread this week.

                                 

                                Slammin - you should coach JMac. Get him down under 2:30. I've never understood why people would go with a coach that doesn't bother to mix up the training to be specific to the runner. Sounds like you try your system at the start, but quickly adjust. Your buddy here in Houston just takes what he does, and gives it to those he coaches. Ends up with just ridiculous workouts. Even at 53 he still does some crazy stuff. Like 5 miles at threshold, rest, then an all out mile. My legs would certainly quit if I tried that.

                                 

                                DW - Is that a typical week you'd have 3-4 weeks prior to a half? Or is this a bit different as you're coming off the full still and trying to get ready quick? What paces were you targeting on both Tue and Fri? 10k, then half?

                                 

                                Weather - get it done!

                                 

                                My week: 71 total. I had a Thu workout of 5 easy, 2 (6:07, 6:08), 5 easy (6:07, 5:58), 1 easy. Then on Saturday I did 21 moderate (averaged around 7:20). All else easy. I would have liked to get in 10 at MP in the LR this Saturday, but the conditions sucked. 65F and 99% humidity. So I just kept it relaxed. I'll likely do another 20 this Saturday, sneaking in a few test MP miles in. We'll see. I'll keep things at around 70 this week, then drop from there for the last two weeks. I haven't been this fit for a marathon ever, so it should be fun to see what happens.

                                Upcoming races: Madrid (half) April 2020