2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 290 times)

JTReeves


    JMac: Great to hear the calf is feeling much better.

     

    nimmals: Sorry to hear about the bad news but you have a great attitude and I hope things will turn around for you quickly; stay positive!

     

    sling: Outside stress from work, etc. definitely wears you down; I can see it just in resting HR before getting out of bed in the morning; if things are hectic at work it's up as much as 5-10 beats from normal. And that is felt in training as well. As nimmals said stay positive and do what you can training-wise.

     

    anyone excited about the Millrose games this weekend? Kejelcha going for the indoor WR in the mile (3:48.45 by El G in 1997).

    5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

    2019 races: Athens Ohio Marathon (April 14); Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)

    weatherboy80


      JMac: echo what JT just said that I'm glad the calf is quickly healing up. I still think you're going to throw down a good time at Boston!

       

      Nimmals: what a great attitude.  That right there will get you turned back around quickly.

       

      Sling:  Non-running stress is a huge part of running!  Still plenty of time and training left to really give up on a goal at Boston too.

       

      Definitely feeling some fatigue on my last few runs this week.  Haven't hit the quality quite that much this week, but looking back at my last 7 days I'm over 90 miles and combined with 2 trips to Disney (Sat and then again Tuesday) that is quite a bit of time on my feet!

       

      Also was looking at the Daniels 71-85 Q2 plan and really questioning the sanity level of Jack yet again as he has my 2nd Q run of 14M this weekend.  Then for the first Q1 workout next week he has 6M+1T+5M (mid week).  So that would be more than 26 miles at just faster than goal race pace in a 3-4 day span during heavy volume!  That is nuts even with my training history Wink My plan is to run 13.1M (effort based since it warm here again) this weekend and then forego his mid week big workout instead adding in some fartlek type stuff for turnover.

      5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

      finbad


        Weatherboy - I'd looked at that combination of workouts too and think its a good call to try to hit one of them with purpose rather than attempt both. So far it's more like I'm reading along with the JD plan and not actually doing any of his workouts. Who knows, maybe this weekend I'll try.

         

        Bit of advice from the group please. My run club session for next Tuesday is 16x 400m @3k pace with 2 min recoveries. This is run on a track about 4 miles from me so I usually run to and from which makes an nice midweek long run so I'm inclined to do the session. However, it does kind-off shout 'injury risk' at me. Would you suggest that is workout is worth it or should I just bin it and do some tempo stuff?

        Upcoming; 31st March Alloa half marathon Tom Scott 10 mile, 15th April Boston marathon, 3rd May Scottish 5k champs, 9th May Helensburgh 10k, 16th May Dumbarton 10k, 26th May Shettleston 10k, 1st June Killearn trail 10, 2nd June Milngavie trail race

        JMac11


          Weather - As I've said before, his 71-85 program is absurd. Sometimes it's better just to do what's in the 56-70 program even though you're running the higher mileage. I always move his stuff around so that it makes sense together, thinking about what he intended rather than what some editor probably put in the back of the book.

           

          Fin - I think that workout in and of itself isn't a huge injury risk, but it depends on your recent history running those kinds of speeds. I know personally I would get injured from that because I've done almost no V02 style work over the last 6 months, but I'm not sure that's the case for you right? It's sort of like running 14 miles at marathon pace. That workout isn't an injury risk if you're 12 weeks into a cycle running 80 mpw, but it definitely would scream major risk if you're just coming off another marathon cycle with 4 very low weeks in between.

          5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

           

          Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

          weatherboy80


            JMac: Pretty much concur with that statement.  Even if I hadn't raced a HM 12 days ago not sure it would be smart to try and do that many miles anywhere near goal race pace within the same week without adjusting downward or moving things around.  I know I've managed to hit some pretty big workouts so far, but I never consider marathon pace anywhere easy for me, especially from the get go.  I feel like it takes a good effort to get the legs spun up at least for the first few miles.  Then anytime I'm going more than 7-8 miles at that pace I feel like I'm into the tempo effort range at some point, especially with the volume I'm running.  I imagine that would also be the case for the elites (or sub-elite) as I don't think they would be able to do more than 12-14 at goal race pace in training?

            5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

            Swim5599


              JMac: Pretty much concur with that statement.  Even if I hadn't raced a HM 12 days ago not sure it would be smart to try and do that many miles anywhere near goal race pace within the same week without adjusting downward or moving things around.  I know I've managed to hit some pretty big workouts so far, but I never consider marathon pace anywhere easy for me, especially from the get go.  I feel like it takes a good effort to get the legs spun up at least for the first few miles.  Then anytime I'm going more than 7-8 miles at that pace I feel like I'm into the tempo effort range at some point, especially with the volume I'm running.  I imagine that would also be the case for the elites (or sub-elite) as I don't think they would be able to do more than 12-14 at goal race pace in training?

               

              I follow most of the guys and girls that run for NAZ elite.  They usually do 3 big marathon effort runs or steady states which is what they call them during their 12 week builds.  They go up to 16 miles on lake Mary road at 7000 ft.  Which is just brutal.

              HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

              JMac11


                I honestly think 3-4 big efforts are good towards the middle to end of the cycle, something like 10@M, 12@M, 14@M, and maybe a mixed pace work of 8M + 3T.

                5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                 

                Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

                JTReeves


                  I honestly think 3-4 big efforts are good towards the middle to end of the cycle, something like 10@M, 12@M, 14@M, and maybe a mixed pace work of 8M + 3T.

                   

                  Good lord that's a lot of M pace in one run...I'll be happy to have 4-6@M in a long run and call it good enough 

                  5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                  2019 races: Athens Ohio Marathon (April 14); Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                    My coach has a rule of no more than 10 miles MP in a workout.

                     

                    For me, I think 12 would be fine.  But I've run good marathons off of the 10 mile limit, so why do more (big rule of training - do only as much as you need to get the resuts you want).

                     

                    When looking at those NAZ workouts, I think it's important to remember that those are people in their 20s and early 30s, who also have the luxury of prioritizing sleep and relaxation as part of their job.  I know that I don't have the same opportunities for recovery as them, so it doesn't make sense to match that type of training.

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    Nimmals


                      JTReeve and Weatherboy thanks for the kind words and support.

                      Every bad moment I’m my life fades. You just have to pick up and move on.

                       

                      i would agree on lower spec MP runs as opposed to larger spec. I’ve always said you don’t need more than 7 @ MP. Typically I have my athletes do 6 @ MP. Unless it’s the Truth Run. Come to think of it, the truth run is only 6 @MP.  Those other 6 are definitely faster.

                      JMac11


                        We may be talking about different things though. Which is harder on the body:

                         

                        A) 20 miles with the final 6 at MP

                        B) 14 miles, with the middle 12 at MP

                         

                        I would find A much more difficult to recover from than B, yet it “only” has 6 @ MP.

                        5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 35:59 (3/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                         

                        Next Race: Boston (4/15/19) 

                        darkwave


                        Mother of Cats

                          We may be talking about different things though. Which is harder on the body:

                           

                          A) 20 miles with the final 6 at MP

                          B) 14 miles, with the middle 12 at MP

                           

                          I would find A much more difficult to recover from than B, yet it “only” has 6 @ MP.

                           

                          I think they're both challenging, and accomplish different things.  Personally, I think I'd find option A easier to execute (one of my group's staple workouts is 21 with the last 7 at MP).  Both would require equal recovery for me.  But that might also be relative strengths - I don't generally have issues with pure distance - 12 miles or 16 miles easy doesn't make that much difference to me.  Start adding in MP, and that's when I start working.

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                           

                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                          steve_


                          powered by plants

                            We may be talking about different things though. Which is harder on the body:

                             

                            A) 20 miles with the final 6 at MP

                            B) 14 miles, with the middle 12 at MP

                             

                            I would find A much more difficult to recover from than B, yet it “only” has 6 @ MP.

                             

                            Harder on the body or a better marathon workout?  B for the former, A for the latter.

                             

                            nimmalS- Maybe I'm not reading this correctly, but isn't your teammate Ronald J looking to pace 2:55 at Boston?

                            5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                            *downhill AF

                            Swim5599


                              Interesting discussion on MP workouts.  Towards the end of my last cycle I was getting In nearly 23 miles at marathon effort a week.  Sounds absurd but it isn’t when you are really running at the correct effort level.  I ran 2x40:00 tempos in the AM on wed and fri which then led to threshold intervals in the afternoon.  Always had 60-65 minutes of Mp work at the end of the LR every week.  Moral of the story is you can pile a ton of MP work in in a week if you manage it fairly well.

                               

                              Down for a lackluster 10k yesterday

                              mon 8 with 8x1:00 at functional threshold power at sea level (5:45)

                              tue 8 at 8:15 back in flag

                              wed 6 with 4x1:00 at FTP (5:42)

                              thurs 4 8:02

                              fri 3 at 8:00

                              sat 9.2 with a terrible 37:45 10k.  Nearly closed the last 10k at CIM faster.  First 10k race ever

                              sun 8 8:15

                               

                              11 weeks until the Eugene Half.  I’m ready to get back to work and stop screwing around.  My half PR is way to old now.

                              HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                              weatherboy80


                                Swim:  Huge week!  Don't worry too much about the 10K race result.  You're in much better shape than that! Don't know after having just run 13.1 at marathon pace (was arguably uptempo to tempo effort given the weather) 24 miles in one training week would be quite tough.  I imagine though it would be much better to break them up into manageable chunks unlike what I tried to do this morning.

                                 

                                As I mentioned above and a few posts ago used a local race to run my scheduled workout of 13.1M this morning.  Boy I sure know how to pick the best weather days.  Temperatures were in the upper 60's with RH well over 90% with intermittent rain bands and some strong wind gusts at times.  Given that I dialed back the pace just a bit and managed to knock off miles right around 6:15 pace for the most part, except for a slow mile right into the wind and then a fast mile to close the race that was downwind (both still still had bridge crossings).  Honestly even though I backed off just a bit from the get go the whole race/workout felt like an uptempo to tempo effort.  Certainly the weather played a big part, but the higher volume during the week was also a big culprit.  Still managed to throw down a ~1:22 HM in these conditions and in the middle of a 20 miler so very happy with the effort. No way could I have sustained that for another few miles though Wink Other highlight this week was a short 3K race effort (yesterday) on some mixed surfaces at our local zoo where I ran a 10:10 that had lots of twists and turns.  Not a fast race by any means, but a fun one though.   Finally I ran some 6 X 1 cruise intervals on Tuesday as my first workout back from my HM 2 weeks ago.


                                Weekly Summary
                                Monday, Feb 04, 2019 thru Sunday, Feb 10, 2019

                                <tfoot> </tfoot>
                                Day Miles Pace Description Link
                                Mon 12.2 7:50 EZ + strides strava
                                Tue 3.1 8:24 Warm up strava
                                Tue 9.4 6:27 6 X 1T + 1E + 8 X 200R strava
                                Tue 4.2 7:53 Cool down for 16.5+ strava
                                Wed 13.2 7:49 Solar therapy strava
                                Thu 4.2 7:37 AM miles strava
                                Thu 10.0 7:42 Feeling the miles 😓 strava
                                Fri 4.2 7:48 Just a few + strides strava
                                Sat 3.0 8:37 Warm up strava
                                Sat 1.8 5:27 Zoo 3K (10:09.9) strava
                                Sat 1.2 7:50 Short cool down strava
                                Sat 1.7 18:54 Zoo 3K Part 2: with family & friends strava
                                Sun 20.4 7:00 3.5E + 12M + 1.1T + 3.75E 💨💨🌧 strava
                                  88.6      

                                5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)