2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 576 times)

     

    Jt been following young Coco for a while she too quickly dismissed herpacer. I felt for Kejelcha but he was from the wrong country. I’ll be damned if an Ethiopian gets the mile any of the mile records.

    anyway very happy with Coco. I wanted Laura Muir to come train stateside we got Sivan instead. Don’t get me wrong Sivan is amazing but she a sit and kicker I’m excited to see how front runners like Laura and Coco do as they up their training and fillin gaps in their race strategies.. Coco is the real deal I saw her upset a field of elites 4 years ago in a 3k by taking out the race by time the big guns figur3d out she was kryptonite it was too late love the tenacity Coco and Laura take to the Kenyans and Ethiopians. Case of beer Coco double gold Medal the 5k & 1500 in Tokyo.

     

    Nimmals: That Millrose meet and the one the week before were the first times I saw Klosterhalfen. SHe is young and talented with that range. I liked most how she ran both races aggressively, the 5k the week before then the mile last weekend, from the front. That's refreshing to see in elite races, where most of the time it is a sit and kick affair. The 1500/5k double in Tokyo would be damn impressive! It will be tough competition in both. If G. Dibaba is full strength in the 1500, will be hard to beat. And Ayana in the 5000 will also be very tough. Plus many others. I look forward to seeing if you're right!

     

    Yomif is a 5000m guy, with a sweet spot for the 3k distance, so putting up that mile time is even more impressive. He could be the next incarnation of Geb and Kenny B. I'd love to see him go after Komen's 2 mile WR of 7:58. I bet he could get that eventually. Too bad they almost never run that event. And who knows, maybe he can join the 3 Great Ones and get under 12:40 in the 5000m.

     

    Everyone: Show some respect to Nimmals, he is RWOL royalty and damn fast. And I want him here to talk with about pro running!

    5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

    Up next: Hartford Marathon (Oct. 12)

    steve_


    powered by plants

      I've run 15 marathons with the last 9 being sub 3 (2008-2018).  I will say as a sub 3 hour marathoner that 90% of my running is between 7:00 - 7:40.  I also do hill sprints, track intervals, and tempo for the other 10% which are also very important.  In my experience, this theory of a dead range is complete nonsense.

       

       

      I will say 90% of the time you're running way too fast.  The "dead zone" that he is referring to is not complete nonsense.  MOST younger (<35) male runners run the majority of their runs way too hard.  I just looked through my 2018 log and found 3 runs that were in the 7-7:40 range that weren't specific workouts or the week leading up to a marathon.  No injuries.  6 days off, most were due to travel rather than rest needed.  There is zero reason for most people to run that fast for their regular runs.  For 3 years I trained daily with my best friend (2:42 NYC PR).  We rarely ran faster than 8 min pace.  Usually closer to 8:15-20.  If you're a 2:50 guy, there is zero benefit to running 10 miles in 72 minutes compared to running 10 miles in 80.  If you disagree, explain what a 6:25/mi MP guy is gaining from running a minute per mile slower than MP for ten miles that he isn't gaining from running the same distance 1:30/mi slower.  You don't get better from running your runs faster for no reason.  You get better from consistently logging mileage (most of it very easy, conversational easy) and nailing workouts when you run them.

       

      That said, most people hate being told to slow down.

      5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

      *downhill AF

         I will say 90% of the time you're running way too fast.  The "dead zone" that he is referring to is not complete nonsense.  MOST younger (<35) male runners run the majority of their runs way too hard.  I just looked through my 2018 log and found 3 runs that were in the 7-7:40 range that weren't specific workouts or the week leading up to a marathon.  No injuries.  6 days off, most were due to travel rather than rest needed.  There is zero reason for most people to run that fast for their regular runs.  For 3 years I trained daily with my best friend (2:42 NYC PR).  We rarely ran faster than 8 min pace.  Usually closer to 8:15-20.  If you're a 2:50 guy, there is zero benefit to running 10 miles in 72 minutes compared to running 10 miles in 80.  If you disagree, explain what a 6:25/mi MP guy is gaining from running a minute per mile slower than MP for ten miles that he isn't gaining from running the same distance 1:30/mi slower.  You don't get better from running your runs faster for no reason.  You get better from consistently logging mileage (most of it very easy, conversational easy) and nailing workouts when you run them.

         

        That said, most people hate being told to slow down.

         

        +1 to this. I follow a few people on strava who run all easy runs in that deadzone, actually more like 7:00-7:30 pace. One puts up killer hard workouts as well, ones that indicate a marathon potential in the 2:45 range, and she only recently broke 3.  Who knows, but perhaps slowing those easy runs down to 8-9 min pace would help her absorb the hard workouts a lot better and race stronger. If easy run pace is only 15-30 seconds/mile slower than MP, something is not right.

        Note: the runner I am talking about is not on this thread 

        5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

        Up next: Hartford Marathon (Oct. 12)


        Elite Jogger

            

          Everyone: Show some respect to Nimmals, he is RWOL royalty and damn fast. And I want him here to talk with about pro running!

           

          Yep, when he first showed up on RWOL I thought WTF???  But he’s a cool guy and huge respect to him as he’s been pacing and coaching a blind guy for the last couple of years.

          5k - 17:53 (2019)   10k - 37:53 (2018)   Half - 1:23:18 (2019)   Full - 2:50:43 (2019)

          JMac11


          Benevolent Leader

            I'm not sure going down the line of "what's the benefit" works because clearly there is a floor. Why not run at 4:00 slower than MP all the time, regardless of MPW or workouts? Clearly at some pace, you are exiting the appropriate aerobic zone that is needed for marathon training and you're just running junk miles.

             

            The other thing, which we've mentioned before, is how much you're running per week. Mikkey has brought up this point before, but your easy pace can be highly dependent on the type of training and mileage you're putting in. Someone running 30 MPW, only doing easy running, could easily run MP+45 seconds all day long with almost no harm without necessarily entering this no man's land. However, if you're running 80+ MPW with two quality days, you are only hurting yourself by running that pace. I also think there is a difference between easy days and recovery days which can lead to different paces. Easy days for me are often MP+60, but recovery runs are never faster than MP+90, and often can be as slow as MP+150.

             

            I guess the point of this entire post is that there are so many variable that go into this that easy pace is not one number. Similar to people who hate being told to slow down, I do think there is a minority of people in the running community who are obsessed with running as slowly as possible. I don't think G As with all things in life, being extreme is probably not the right approach 

             

            Oh and JT - anyone who runs their workouts off of potential and not recent races should be immediately unfollowed from Strava. Everytime someone talks about their "goal VDOT" and running based off of that, I just shake my head.

            5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

             

            Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

            Nimmals


              You get better from consistently logging mileage (most of it very easy, conversational easy) and nailing workouts when you run them.

               

              That said, most people hate being told to slow down.

               

               Steve- This is the most teachable moment right here and it will still go over most heads. Preach it brother.

               

              Invariably like i said most are "not here to learn".

               

              Everyone else - Don't mind me. I'm Just here to showoff and steal fast looking workouts and tell you how amazing I a feel running 9:30 pace..

               

               

              JT -  Im a fanboy of the pro women and a few of the men so don't make me stay by talking pros. LOL you know I cant resist.

              Today is a snow day in NY so I'll have my fun then wallow back to obscurity. good to see you and thank for bringing Strugglr to my attention he will be my young Padawan's lead out. I owe someone a beer. 

              Nimmals


                 

                +1 to this. I follow a few people on strava who run all easy runs in that deadzone, actually more like 7:00-7:30 pace. One puts up killer hard workouts as well, ones that indicate a marathon potential in the 2:45 range, and she only recently broke 3.  Who knows, but perhaps slowing those easy runs down to 8-9 min pace would help her absorb the hard workouts a lot better and race stronger. If easy run pace is only 15-30 seconds/mile slower than MP, something is not right.

                Note: the runner I am talking about is not on this thread 

                 

                I think I know who you mean she is a friend of mine and her last marathon we had a girl 8 minutes behind at mile 8 beat her by 20 seconds and to add a dig at me she named her Sunday run "Chillin in the Dead Zone"    you know it was an biteback at me for my Satuday strava run post run. She is a perfect example of a promise unfulfilled. That's my homegirl girl though. Believe you me I've tried to help her, actually her new boyfriend has been running amazing though.

                JMac11


                Benevolent Leader

                  Nimmals - Your latest post is spot on, I think it was just that you assigned the same times for a 2:40 and a 3:20 runner in your first post that got people going. I don't think most people who have knowledge of the sport would disagree with the idea of a dead zone between MP and Easy Pace existing (insert Mikkey's thumbs up icon here)

                   

                  Edit: I think this article sums up perfectly what I was saying in my post a few up: What is an Easy Run?

                  5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                   

                  Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)

                    Edit: I think this article sums up perfectly what I was saying in my post a few up: What is an Easy Run?

                     

                    Yup. My friend Jeff wrote that. He would have agreed with my post on page 20 that set of this fracas, if he was still posting on these boards.

                    Runners run.

                    darkwave


                    Mother of Cats

                      Wow - forum blew up with some solid discussion.  Brain droppings.

                       

                      point a)

                      Nimmals - I was the one who kicked off the discussion, and just to be clear (because sometimes tone isn't obvious on the internet), I wasn't attacking you with my comment "What the hell is "BS in the dead zone"?"  I just had absolutely no idea what you meant.  Flippant request for clarification, not aggression.

                       

                      point b)

                      I do believe that there is a zone of paces, generally falling between "honestly easy" and marathon pace, that is less productive than other training paces, and also happens to be where some gravitate to.  I think that's part ego "this is my easy pace" and part that some people are hooked on that runner's high, and training at "honestly easy" pace doesn't give you that high.  I think it's very hard for some to understand that you can reap massive benefits from a run that did not generate endorphins.

                       

                      point c)

                      building on point b, I think there are some who will aggressively advocate for the benefit of training in this area because it feels good to them and it's a fun ego boost and it sure as heck feels like you're accomplishing something while at the same time not actually having to do the true work of a workout.

                       

                      point d)

                      Confession: I do occasionally train in the "dead zone" myself - for me I would think that would be 7:15-8:15 pace right now.  I consider that "moderate" and I don't touch on it much, but I do hit it for a few miles in the middle of progression long runs, and also will occasionally intentionally substitute it in for a workout if I want to do something but think a full workout might be too much.  I NEVER sub it in for an easy day, though.

                       

                      point e)

                      I also think that there's a lot of variety in the human body - I run my easy days fairly slowly but I know others who do get a bit flat if they don't run their easy days slightly faster than I do.

                       

                      point f)

                      marathon pace is a completely different thing at different goal times - someone who is targeting a 2:30 marathon is training to hold a pace for 2:30, while I'm training to hold a pace for about 30 minutes longer.  That's a significant difference in intensity.  I would expect the gap between "honest easy" and marathon pace to vary depending on one's goal pace.  At one end, I would expect a 4:30+ marathoner's marathon pace to be not much different from their easy pace.

                       

                      point g)

                      I listen to the Marcus/Magness podcast, and a while back Marcus was asserting that there was no value in his athletes (all much faster than me) training at marathon pace.  His point was that at a certain level, marathon pace itself is a dead zone, and you can reap many more benefits from training faster or slower.  I thought that was a really interesting perspective, and one I had not heard before.

                      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                       

                      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                      Nimmals


                         

                        Yup. My friend Jeff wrote that. He would have agreed with my post on page 20 that set of this fracas, if he was still posting on these boards.

                         

                        Another winner πŸ₯‡ congrats πŸŽ‰πŸΎπŸŽŠπŸŽˆ  you won!!!

                           

                          Another winner πŸ₯‡ congrats πŸŽ‰πŸΎπŸŽŠπŸŽˆ  you won!!!

                           

                          Everyone: This is some solid RWOL royalty content right here

                          Runners run.

                            I put 2:59:59 in McMillan running to see what his training paces would be.  It comes up with 6:46 - 7:45 Easy Runs and Long Runs at 6:51 to 8:02. https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/

                             

                            This matches my own experience without artificially holding back.  I simply would not enjoy running if I was out there going so slowly.

                             

                             

                             

                            I will say 90% of the time you're running way too fast. 

                              I wonder if that guy is related to Sportsjester?

                               

                               

                              Everyone: This is some solid RWOL royalty content right here

                              JMac11


                              Benevolent Leader

                                I wonder if that guy is related to Sportsjester?

                                 

                                 

                                I miss that guy’s post. It was entertaining. I hope he comes back and trolls some more.

                                 

                                DW’s post is spot on for this topic. Very well said.  Not much to add. Regarding point G, definitely a lot of debate about that. I don’t think there are any physical benefits of running marathon pace, but I think there are a lot of pscyhological benefits to running it. I continually find that miles 3 or 4 of MP workouts are too fast, and it was evident during my last marathon. These runs teach me how to deal with not speeding up too much. Otherwise, they fall in this dead zone bucket of runs that are too fast to provide any easy/recovery benefit, but too slow to be threshold.

                                5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:21 (3/19)  |  FM: 2:44:43 (4/19) 

                                 

                                Next Race: Suffolk County Half Marathon (10/27/19)