2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 289 times)

steve_


powered by plants

    I put 2:59:59 in McMillan running to see what his training paces would be.  It comes up with 6:46 - 7:45 Easy Runs and Long Runs at 6:51 to 8:02. https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/

     

    This matches my own experience without artificially holding back.  I simply would not enjoy running if I was out there going so slowly.

     

     

     

    So MP is considered "Easy".  Brilliant.

     

    People who base their training on an algorithm deserve whatever comes their way.

    5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

    *downhill AF

    slingrunner


       

       There is zero reason for most people to run that fast for their regular runs. 

       

      I'm pretty good at running at the correct pace these days, but for me sometimes, and other runners often, the alternative might not be going slower, but not running at all.  Not everybody is 100% focused on their fastest race time... even though I'm super competitive, in the end 99% of my time is spent on the process, not the end result.  Psychologically there is something nice about turning a 100 minute run into a 93 minute run and having a few extra minutes of my day to do something else.

      5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

        7:45 pace is a 3:23 marathon.  If 7:45 is not easy for you then you are not a sub 3 marathoner.

         

         

        So MP is considered "Easy".  Brilliant.

         

        People who base their training on an algorithm deserve whatever comes their way.

        steve_


        powered by plants

          7:45 pace is a 3:23 marathon.  If 7:45 is not easy for you then you are not a sub 3 marathoner.

           

           

          My results would strongly disagree.

           

          It's fine.  I was 31 once too.  When I was , I thought I knew what was best because I broke 3 hours before a lot of other guys posting on RWOL.  Now that I'm ten years older and running faster in every single distance I realize maybe I didn't have all the answers.

          5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

          *downhill AF

          Swim5599


            7:45 pace is a 3:23 marathon.  If 7:45 is not easy for you then you are not a sub 3 marathoner.

             

            There are days when I would say that 7:45 pace is definitely not easy

            HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

            steve_


            powered by plants

              I'm pretty good at running at the correct pace these days, but for me sometimes, and other runners often, the alternative might not be going slower, but not running at all.  Not everybody is 100% focused on their fastest race time... even though I'm super competitive, in the end 99% of my time is spent on the process, not the end result.  Psychologically there is something nice about turning a 100 minute run into a 93 minute run and having a few extra minutes of my day to do something else.

              My understanding is, and I could be mistaken, that most folks here are focused on getting faster.  Not trying to save an extra few minutes.

               

              And seriously, you cannot possibly think this way.  WTF are you going to do with an extra 7 minutes?  This may be the most absurd conversation I've had this week and I teach HS 9th graders.

              5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

              *downhill AF

                There are days when I would say that 7:45 pace is definitely not easy

                 

                There are days when I would say getting down the stairs in the morning is not easy.

                 

                And I have it on good authority (because I've run with him) that millar1987 frequently does easy runs at 8 minute pace and slower despite having a marathon pace of 6:23. I'm pretty sure he doesn't even time most of his easy runs.

                 

                I'd agree this conversation has gotten pretty absurd.

                Runners run.

                  I'm 50 and most of my PRs (all of which are faster than yours, by the way) came after 10 years or so as a runner.  I know this isn't Runner's World but maybe you could learn a few things...

                   

                   

                  My results would strongly disagree.

                   

                  It's fine.  I was 31 once too.  When I was , I thought I knew what was best because I broke 3 hours before a lot of other guys posting on RWOL.  Now that I'm ten years older and running faster in every single distance I realize maybe I didn't have all the answers.

                  darkwave


                  Mother of Cats

                    There are days when I would say that 7:45 pace is definitely not easy

                     

                    7:45 is never easy for me.  Doable for a run of 90+ minutes while carrying a conversation?  Sure.  But it's not easy by my personal definition - I call that effort level moderate or aerobic.

                     

                    I guess I'm not a sub-3 marathoner, race results to the contrary.

                    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                     

                    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                    steve_


                    powered by plants

                      I'm 50 and most of my PRs (all of which are faster than yours, by the way) came after 10 years or so as a runner.  I know this isn't Runner's World but maybe you could learn a few things...

                       

                       

                      Wow.  I assumed the 87 was your birth year.  This is even more pathetic.

                       

                      nimmalS is older than you and has a MP way faster than 6:23.  So why shouldn't he be the authority by your "reasoning"?

                       

                      What would you like me to learn?  That I should be running my easy runs faster?  You're yet to offer me the one explanation I asked for.  McMillan considers "Easy" runs to be up to 85% maxHR.  That's ridiculous.  What is to be gained by running above 75% maxHR for easy days?

                      5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                      *downhill AF

                        I'm willing to stipulate that blanket statements such as "if you don't label 7:45 pace easy then you're not a sub-3-hour marathoner" and "7:00-7:40 is a useless pace that does nothing for any runner in the 2:40-3:20 marathon range" are absurd, and work from there.

                         

                        It doesn't appear to me that anyone #onhere is actually arguing against keeping easy days easy--either in theory or especially in practice.

                        Runners run.

                        Nimmals


                           

                          My results would strongly disagree.

                           

                          It's fine.  I was 31 once too.  When I was , I thought I knew what was best because I broke 3 hours before a lot of other guys posting on RWOL.  Now that I'm ten years older and running faster in every single distance I realize maybe I didn't have all the answers.

                           

                          Steve, I reminisce,  I'm so sorry. I'm just catching on. You're amazing and you certainly have gotten much faster. I know you from way back when. I haven't gotten all the names figured out but I recall us having discussions because of your pace. I was always a fan i just never understood how you trained. I was an opinonated AH, probably still is. I hated water bottles and camelbak and did a post you ripped me to shreds lol, that's because I never marathon trained in the summer, never took water in college. Boy did I learn fast. I remember when you were one of the first to go sub 3 and I was hella impressed. i think i spent 2-3 years in the thread before i ever ran a marathon. Yeah I spent that time learning, especially from other mistakes. I was fast but had no stamina so I tried to lure you to shorter races knowing that's the only way I stood a chance. We had some fun times. Yes you've been improving steadily too.

                           

                          Listen Steve my point exactly we live we learn. Its important that we learn because that's how we get better. Hindsight is 20/20. When i was a Mile\5ker I hammered i lived in the dead zone too.  I hated it but my training group demanded hard runs the three times a week we met as a group. As a result I always felt I showed up to races really tired.  When I started self coaching, I realized quickly the best way to improve was to go back to basics. My 1st high school coach was an old English bloke and he instilled in me some very simple ideas.

                          1. Every run should serve a purpose.
                          2. Train all 3 energy system because you always have to tap into all three as a competitive runner.
                          3. Eat smart and train likewise.

                           

                          Even when i first met Joe Vigil, I remember our hour long talk about junk miles.  In the end he  told me there was no such thing as junk miles but there were dead zones to avoid. And just like my first coach he also said every run should serve a purpose.

                           

                          We can try to help but as I said the forum is not really a place to learn. You know those kind of students that come pre-loaded with the best ideas those two are run buddies and will stick up for each other so I wont bother with them.

                           

                          I'm just happy to see some of the old faces even under new handles.

                          Swimm, Mikkey, DCV2002 man those guys have been around for so long.

                          Nimmals


                             

                            7:45 is never easy for me.  Doable for a run of 90+ minutes while carrying a conversation?  Sure.  But it's not easy by my personal definition - I call that effort level moderate or aerobic.

                             

                            I guess I'm not a sub-3 marathoner, race results to the contrary.

                             

                             DW - I agree with everything you said and you weren't the one that called "my comment/run description" nonsense. All you did was ask for an explanation and I explained. So we're all good DW. You made all salient points and I respect your understanding the process.

                             

                            Wish I could say the same for the other two.

                             

                            Your last point G. I will look for that podcast. That I'd like to hear and maybe share as it aligns with my training philosophy.

                            A few months ago one of my athletes reached out to me via Instagram sending me a post by a very famous older Instagram runner 20mi  MP run who btw finished behind you @ CIM.

                             

                            She wanted to know why I never let her run that fast. She was seeing all these amazing MP workouts on IG and she never gets to do them.  I said "because you can, doesn't mean you need to".

                             

                            At end of the day I'm  training her to go faster.

                            Andres1045


                              Man, at the start of this week I thought Swim getting upset with Mikkey was going to be the most exciting thing on here. Oops.

                               

                              I have no idea who millar1987 is, or anything about his training, but it seems like some of you guys are missing his point. You throw out a statement like 7-740 pace serves absolutely no purpose for anyone ever and should be avoided at all cost or you'll die, and he says it has worked for him and produced good results for 8 years. The response is that since he's young, he doesn't know any better and that training won't work when he's older. But he's 50. So that makes his training even dumber? I understand his point to be that his training has worked well for him. I know it also works for others. Is there different training that could work even better for others? Could the millar1987 training not work for others, and lead them to injuries? Absolutely. I don't really see him disputing that.

                               

                              We can try to help but as I said the forum is not really a place to learn. You know those kind of students that come pre-loaded with the best ideas those two are run buddies and will stick up for each other so I wont bother with them. 

                               

                              Slammin, to be fair, you haven't really tried to help any since you came back. You dropped a bomb and when people began to question you about it you just said we're all a bunch of egotistical idiots that are too worried about bragging and too dumb to learn from your greatness. And I say that as someone who believes in your greatness. I know you're fast as hell, and I know that you actually want to help runners get better. But you haven't really spent much time here. Most people here really do want to learn and get faster.

                               

                              And to the extent you started this discussion to liven up the joint, I love it.

                              Upcoming races:  I dunno.

                                 We can try to help but as I said the forum is not really a place to learn. You know those kind of students that come pre-loaded with the best ideas those two are run buddies and will stick up for each other so I wont bother with them.

                                 

                                I was nodding in agreement with most of your post but this is just dumb.

                                 

                                What's happened the last few pages is not anyone trying to learn or anyone trying to teach. It's mostly just the same stuff that happens on running message boards over and over: people trying to establish the pecking order of expertise (the proverbial dick measuring contest.)

                                 

                                A couple of things worth remembering:

                                1. This isn't RWOL and so any nostalgia about the guys who have "been around so long" is somewhat misplaced. None of you has really been around *here* that long. NTTAWWT.

                                2. We've had all of these same conversations over and over on this board before you all washed ashore here and we all basically agree. People are working to find areas of disagreement but it's mostly semantics.

                                 

                                I didn't call your run description nonsense, or even comment on it. I called this nonsense:

                                 

                                I think if you’re a 2:40-3:20 marathoner the deadzone is 7:00-7:40.

                                 

                                And you, and a bunch of other folks basically agreed with my reasoning. For a 2:40 marathoner, that's likely their easy pace most days. For a 3:20 marathoner, their tempo runs and MP runs will fall into that range. Hardly no-man's land.

                                 

                                I can certainly ignore this thread but I kind of enjoy it. It's one of the few threads in the main message board (what old-time RA'ers call the GSP) where anyone talks about training anymore--most of whatever running talk still happens on RA is in the groups. But this isn't--it's right out here in the GSP which means you have to deal with the peanut gallery and the occasional handle you don't recognize. It could be a good thing. Or not.

                                Runners run.