2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 673 times)


Mother of Cats



    Question for you guys (or others!): given I'm going to tone down the quality, I can probably ramp up mileage a bit more right? I always wonder what the tradeoff is. I know it's not a formula, but let's say you could run 60 MPW with quality, what does that equate to with all easy runs? 70?


    Given your recent history, while I think you can ramp up the mileage, I'd tread very carefully there (pun intended).  I'd stay at 60 MPW until you feel solid, and then creep up.


    Related, have you ever read Brad Hudson's stuff - especially his advocacy for very short and steep hill sprints as a way of strengthening and injury-proofing?  I can't help but think that might have some value to you, if you introduced that stuff very cautiously (like...do two hill repeats the first time).

    Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.


    And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.


      No the original one fecking broke. But they replaced it for free since it was still under warranty.



      Is your original TM still fecking doing it?

       I mean this is all just for laughs and beers anyway.


      Elite Jogger

        Mikkey and Madison - thanks for chiming in, I think that's the right approach. I'll probably still throw some daniels stuff in, but dialed down a lot. Vo2 is out of the question, and I won't be doing any long runs with 4x2 repeats in them.


        Question for you guys (or others!): given I'm going to tone down the quality, I can probably ramp up mileage a bit more right? I always wonder what the tradeoff is. I know it's not a formula, but let's say you could run 60 MPW with quality, what does that equate to with all easy runs? 70?


        In 2009 (2 years after I started running) I ran 4 Sub 3:10 marathons and was averaging around 45mpw with plenty of quality. After the last one I decided to up the mileage in 2010 and slow down the pace. I ended up running sooo many runs at around 9min/mile pace (easy effort -65mpw)...and I went from 3:08 to 2:57 in 3 months. High mileage at slower pace works!


        This is the perfect opportunity for you to experiment with this approach.

        5k - 17:53 (4/19)   10k - 37:53 (11/18)   Half - 1:23:18 (4/19)   Full - 2:50:43 (4/19)


          JMac- Sorry to hear you are continuing to get beat down by the injuries.  At least you had a great marathon in the fall... maybe your body needs more of a rest?


          Stopped to remove a fairly large pebble during my 18 mile run, and I thought of this thread, and how that probably made me weak not running through it.


          66 miles this week, with the only quality workout 5@tempo on my treadmill that did not go well.  I did 4@ tempo at the same pace and incline without issue a couple weeks ago, but for this run I started having difficulty early, and was only able to manage 2.5 before I had to step off.  My pulse was 164 when I checked it, and I'm sure it had fallen a decent amount by that point.  I needed some (nonactive) recovery, and finished the workout at .1mph slower...still in trouble but slightly better.  I'm hoping the culprit was warmer weather... it was in the mid50s that day.  Probably the pace/incline was too much and I had just gotten away with it the other time (6:23 1% incline)

          5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)

            JMac: Good idea to tone down the workouts. It seems like you get into a vicious cycle of being injured and having to take some time off, then coming back and jumping right into a huge JD type workout, and then having to back off some more. Keeping the quality to more mortal levels should definitely help, and I don't think you'll be losing anything. I like Mikkey's idea of trying just easy miles for a while.


            Swim: Nice week. What is a CP test? Is that some sort of re-gauging of your power at a given pace?


            Madison: Wise words regarding easy day pace.


            DW: Excellent week; it's always good to feel that things are progressing in training. I'm impressed you don't look at your splits while track running. It's one of the things I love about the track, being ale to check constantly what my pace is and how it's trending. I might be a bit obsessive in that regard though...


            Sling: Can't help but think if you had some good TV to watch you would have gotten through that tempo run no problems 


            My week: a hard track session Tues which really wore me out, and a nice long run today in perfect weather (for once!) with the first 18 easy and then 3 at 6:23 avg, and into the 4th mi I got a calf cramp and shut it down at that point and ran the final mile easy. Fortunately it was just a cramp and not another strain. I took a new route for this LR which I did not realize till I was done and looked at the map of it took me into NY state for several miles. Two-state long run!


            PS:  I unapologetically enjoyed watching TV during my treadmill runs. 


            <tfoot> </tfoot>
            Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
            Tue 3.1 8:20 Warm up 0 strava
            Tue 5.8 6:26 8 x 800m (2:46-2:47 avg), 400m recovery 0 strava
            Tue 4.1 7:57 Cool down 0 strava
            Wed 6.3 8:43 Morning Run on TM 0 strava
            Thu 11.0 7:44 Morning Run on TM, progression from EZ to moderate 0 strava
            Fri 12.0 8:27 Morning Run 605 strava
            Sat 8.1 8:46 Morning Run 503 strava
            Sun 22.1 7:31 Long run w/ late 3 mi @ 6:23 avg 934 strava
              72.5 7:56   2042  

            2:52:16 (2018)


            Mother of Cats

              Sling  - did you use the same exact treadmill both times?  When I used to run on one, I always had my favorite at the gym, since I knew my experience could vary dramatically based on which one I used.


              JTReeves - Smart to shut it down and save the day.  Better one mile too few than one too many.


              As for the tempos - for me, tempo is an effort, not a pace (with different length tempos being slightly different efforts), so I don't care about hitting even splits.  I almost always tempo on the track (not because I like the track, but because my coach can watch me that way).


              I use the first few laps to feel my way into tempo effort from underneath, and then once I'm just below that thin red line, I hold it there until about 2 laps to go, when I may pick it up a bit if I feel good, or hold steady if I don't.  Interestingly, what feels like steady effort usually results in each mile being a few seconds faster - I'm not sure if that's physiological or a subconscious result of being closer to the end.


              My coach usually calls splits, and I try to ignore them with more or less success.  However, he's lost his voice recently, and so he's not calling splits.  Since I don't look at my watch, I just run split-less (I do lap my watch every four laps to have accurate splits for later).

              Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.


              And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.


                Darkwave- Interesting approach to tempo.  I think it's far easier to go by feel on a track than a treadmill.  On a treadmill it's really difficult to hit the "I give up" button to lower the speed.  Wasn't at the track that day because it was around 11PM.  It's my own treadmill, so I know it's the same settings.  It was 55 out that day, and I had 2 fans plus the treadmill fan surrounding me and running in just race shorts.  I have no idea how people do serious speed work in a gym without any of those advantages.

                5k- 18:55 (2018)    10K- 39:04 (2017)    Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)


                  Hi all, apologies for going missing this week but there is no way I'm reading back through all that. I assume it's uncontroversial that I ran everything this week around 7:40's?


                  Feel like I pulled a potential injury out of the fire, took 3 days totally off at the start of the week and have been very tentative since.

                  Thu - 6

                  Fri - double for 10

                  Sat - 10

                  Sun - 15


                  Another few days of Calbears training and I'll reassess. JMac, sounds like you got a similar sort of wake-up to me this week. Realised that the top priority is making sure I can run and enjoy Boston. I'm certainly not the expert but I'd just play it by feel in adding on extra mileage.


                  JT - quality week again. MP is heading for a solid PR

                  Upcoming; 14th Sep Scottish veterans XC trials, 289th Sep Great Scottish Run 1/2, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k


                    40 miles on the week for me - okay, I'm cheating a bit with some snowshoeing, but I attempted to go hard.


                    4.1, 3.9 (snowshoe), off, 6.9 (through ice and snow), 8 (with 5 mi at tempo), 17.1 (around Camp Randall, woo!), Off (because I was lazy and didn't want to fight the 5-8 inches of snow)


                    Staying a bit lower on mileage than I'd really like, but eh.


                      JMac:  Ugh sorry to hear that another minor injury has come your way Sad  Can't say I disagree with scaling back the workouts.  Volume and consistency is the number one thing to get right in training for a marathon!


                      JT:   Good call pulling back on your workout pace at the end of your LR.  You've made some of the biggest jumps with your fitness this cycle so no sense in doing any more harm.  Great training week BTW.


                      Sling: Still a nice week and effort based tempo session.


                      Madison: Agree with sentiment of training paces.  Mileage is the biggest key unless you are trashing yourself before and after your workout days.  Just go by what feels easy and conversational.


                      Swim: Another big week for you!


                      ZZ:  Hey nothing wrong with some additional cross training.  Nice week!


                      Darkwave: great training week!  I'd love to be able to tune out to my pace and just run.  Still something I need to work on myself.


                      Me:  Got in what will likely be my max volume (including climbing) for this cycle last week.  Capped that off with a challenging tempo/LR workout yesterday where I was able to run a 10K right near where my current tapered HM pace (5:50ish) in the middle of 18 miles followed by some more moderate paced bridge repeats.  I used a local 10K race that finished with a challenging 2 bridge climbs in the last 2 miles and if I'm being honest with myself I'm sure the effort was a bit higher than true tempo pace especially on the recent mileage in my legs and some more hill work on Friday.  Was able to speed up a tad on the last bridge repeat so that is likely a good sign.  Other quality day of note were some V02 max repeats in the wind and pouring rain on Wednesday.  Pretty close to my paces back in November or December so decently happy with that.  Although I'm getting the sense that my fitness has been holding a bit steady the last few weeks as my workouts/tempos have gotten pretty challenging to hit, but I'm going to say that's the effect of mid-cycle mileage more than anything Smile


                      Weekly Summary
                      Monday, Feb 11, 2019 thru Sunday, Feb 17, 2019

                      <tfoot> </tfoot>
                      Day Miles Pace Description Egain Link
                      Mon 10.1 7:50 Morning Run 19 strava
                      Mon 5.2 7:06 Afternoon Double 36 strava
                      Tue 12.2 8:08 Some EZ miles w/ Jen + a few pacing Jon at the end 😎 9 strava
                      Wed 5.1 7:53 Long wet warm up 62 strava
                      Wed 6.1 6:26 That was fun: 5 X 1K w/ 400m jg + 6 X 200R 🌧💨 42 strava
                      Wed 2.1 7:34 Rainy cool down 13 strava
                      Wed 4.3 7:36 A few more 32 strava
                      Thu 12.0 7:31 Afternoon Run 68 strava
                      Fri 10.2 7:30 Kicking off Friday on a Hi-Point ⛰ 757 strava
                      Sat 5.5 7:54 Nice & EZ + strides 26 strava
                      Sun 18.5 6:58 5.5E + 10K@T + 6.5 mi of bridge repeats 676 strava
                        91.3 7:29   1740  

                      5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 34:30 (11/19)  |  HM: 1:15:53 (12/19)  |  FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)


                      Stotan Disciple

                         Strava Runner Profile | Miler 72.

                        Activities for Feb 11, 2019 - Feb 17, 2019

                        Feb 19, 2018 - Feb 18, 2019


                        81.1 miles

                        11 hrs:06 mins

                        3570 ft gain


                        90 mile week had to cut short due to top of foot pain from laces. tendons very sore been applying CBD cream. hope this isnt serious. Haven't run since Sunday


                        18 mi 💀 Velvet Curtain 💀 Run

                               18.08 mi
                                7:33 /mi
                                2h 16m
                                Achievements 2
                                Through the Bethpage woods 2nd overall (22:24)
                                18 miles atart out easy 12 w/ 5 mile push (6:24, 6:08, 5:59, 6:00, 5:58) 1 mile cool down


                        PreRun Run w/ Spina

                        PreRun Run w/ Spina

                            4.00 mi
                            9:03 /mi
                            36m 13s



                        Tri-ing to keep up w/ LITC Triathletes...

                           8.17 mi
                                8:44 /mi
                                1h 11mins


                          12 miles Icy

                                  12.27 mi
                                  8:23 /mi
                                  1h 42m



                        Ouch Hurt my F@#%%ing Foot 6 mi Easy
                        6.25 mi
                        9:07 /mi
                        56m 57s
                        Shoe laces too tight seems to have irritated tendons.



                        I know Amanda Wore Shorts Today 8 mi Run       

                                7.98 mi
                                8:11 /mi
                                1h 5m



                        Flicking Good Push for 2k Tuesday 4x2k @ 7:32, 7:12, 7:02, 6:51 6x 200m @ 42, 36, 38, 37, 40, 36     Workout
                            11.41 mi
                            7:51 /mi
                            1h 29m

                        • Photo


                        <form><input name="entity_type" type="hidden" value="Activity" /> <input name="entity_id" type="hidden" value="2140846545" />



                        Thinking should be done first, before training begins.


                        Mother of Cats

                          Nimmals, your code is showing...  Tongue

                          Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.


                          And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.


                          Stotan Disciple

                            That's the best I can do. Geez it looked so good in paste.



                            Great advice on the hill Sprints. Its a staple of mine. Every Monday I do those except in the winter but I do 9 months of the year.

                            Something I borrowed from Coach Hudson, who borrowed from Coach Cannova, who borrowed from Coach James.


                            One thing most people don't get is they have to be done fast like really hard.


                            I train so many people that just appear to jog up the hill like its a hill run-up vs a sprint.


                            If its not a maximum effort sprint, one may as well not bother.

                            Thinking should be done first, before training begins.


                            Taper Czar

                              DW - I honestly don't know what triggered it. I look back at my weekly mileage and intensity, and I wasn't even approaching my work I was doing for NYC when I got my first injury. I do seem to get injured more after my long runs at easy pace though. The multiple injuries this cycle though is probably from doing too much after injury, as I wasn't injured at all during my major pushes during the last 3 years (except for some weird taper nonsense and then one foot injury that occurred during some of my lowest volumes). Your idea of hill repeats is good. I used to do those before I started a cycle but didn't this time around. Maybe I'll get back to those in the summer. What sucks is my legs feel good at 60 MPW, I don't feel beat up at all, it's just the injuries that pop up. If I didn't have those, I could easily run 70+ at this point without feeling burned out physically. I would say the other big thing I learned this cycle is that I can't do marathons that close together anymore. After Boston, I'm waiting until CIM to give myself 8 months instead of the 5 I took for NYC to Boston.


                              Mikkey - I ran back to back MLRs this week for the first time ever in spirit of your advice. It actually was way harder than I thought and something I will incorporate more into my runs. I tried progressing on the second one like Pfitz recommends but gave up because it was too hard. I'm going to probably still do some JD-esque workouts, but they're going to be significantly less time at quality, e.g. I won't be doing any 4x2 for the rest of this cycle.


                              JT - Hope that calf is doing okay! I've been massaging mine like crazy to keep the scar tissue from forming. It feels pretty tight, but it's been a few weeks now and no re-injury so that's a good sign.


                              Finbad- We both went BOTT and failed. Time to get to the start line healthy for us. Weather will be the pace car in Boston, we'll have to dual for 2nd place 


                              Weather - so when are you going to tell us that your goal for Boston is 2:39?  It's just sitting there on the first page blankly looking back at us. I think I'm going to keep repeating that your goal is 2:39 until you actually say it as well.


                              Me - Been sticking to the Calbears approach of just a lot of easy mileage. Did decide to pick it up at the end of my MLR yesterday for some tempo work. Wow is my pace off where it should be. I always felt that I was a well balanced runner between all different paces based on VDOTs, but this cycle has gone almost completely towards me being only good at MP. I did that 12 @ MP last week and felt like I could run another 3 miles if needed. I couldn't even do a single mile near the equivalent LT pace at the end of this long run. Shows me I should probably focus the beginning of the summer on all speed/V02 max work before picking up anything else. I'm also a little concerned NYC will be an injury risk for me, or will not really be useful for predicting MP given how far off my current LT pace is, but I'll cross that bridge when I get there. Anyway, going to stick with easy again for the rest of the week, should have a good long run Thursday morning before flying out to CO for some skiing.


                              Edit: Just discovered they changed the NYC Half course and removed all of the hilly parts of Central Park, so that's great news! I guess they heard all the complaints about how stupid it was to have your premier half marathon event be so difficult. Still have to deal with the wind and it being worse than last year's course, but hey, I'll take the lack of rolling hills for the last 3 miles.

                              5K: 16:51 (8/19)  |  10K: 34:49 (10/19)  |  HM: 1:16:05 (10/19)  |  FM: 2:36:31 (12/19) 


                              Next Race: NYC Half (3/15/20)

                                Finbad: Glad to hear the quad is getting sorted out; looks like you are feeling good based on your long run today.


                                Captain: Is snow-shoeing a similar cardio effort to running if you push it enough? Seems like it might be like X-country skiing which is pretty close to running in terms of cardio intensity.


                                Weather: Great week again; though I thought you would be well over 100 for your peak week  But I think 91 should do... The tempo in the middle of your LR was blazing fast. Only 8 weeks till Boston (easy to remember since my race is the day before Boston).


                                Nimmals: Strong week. I like those 2k repeats, I need to do that kind of workout.  BTW, what did you think of Sifan's 14:44 5k road WR this weekend?  She'll be tough competition for KoKo in Tokyo, whether she does 1500m or 5000m.

                                2:52:16 (2018)