2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 680 times)

Nimmals/Darkwave - good call on the hill sprints, need to find time for that

JMac - weatherboy is the form man for sure but we're not dead yet. BOTT is a mindset (or something).

JT -Thanks, yeah, feeling fine. have decided to miss this weekend's cross country 10k as a precaution, and also because it would prevent a proper weekend long run.

Race day must be getting closer, I found myself think about gels for the first time in months

JT: No 100 miles for me this cycle   I accidently did that once last year and it was a bit much.  I feel like I'm right on the edge of impacting some of my quality paces so this is enough!  I'm sure I'd even be okay knocking it back a bit, but enjoy the volume typical - well most times anyways

LOL JMac!  Nice looking week BTW.  Looks like you are at least getting in some nice MLR's!  You and Fin certainly have the potential and the speed to still throw down something really fast.  I've run Boston the last 2 years in a row and have had numerous interesting weather days in my recent race so I'm a bit race/weather weary right now   Maybe I'll see where my upcoming few big M/T/M workouts land, but we are back to morning lows in the low to mid 70's again   As usual my plan is to keep up with the workouts (when I can) and to get as fit as possible and let the race come to me.  I'm sure this is the mileage speaking but (again) after my workout this morning I feel like I've lost just a bit of my top end speed over the last month or so compared to when I was doing more track stuff before my fall HM.  The good news is that I feel healthy all this considered so I'm gonna blame the recent volume ...

Fin:  I hate gels myself.  I'm sure I could use more of them with the heat training I do, but I really try to avoid them most of the time.  I do a few practice runs where I will take 2-3 gels at least several times before my marathon though.

Ha Weather, you need to just set your goal assuming good weather! I said it 6 months ago, and I'll say it again: it's going to be perfect weather for Boston. Also, it's not surprising you feel the way you do, you're reach peak marathon training fatigue and you're running crazy mileage. You can always just take a sharper taper if you feel like crap. Also, you SHOULD be losing top end speed. If you were keeping the same speed you had for your HM, then you're not doing it right!

Nimmals/JT - hoping to get along to the European champs in 2 weeks time since it's here in Glasgow. I sort of forget how big time Laura Muir is because I see her training regularly. I've seen her doing hill reps at the end of my street and really wish she would put this up on Strava because she'd cream all of the fast club guys who are currently creaming me on my local hill.

Nimmals/JT - hoping to get along to the European champs in 2 weeks time since it's here in Glasgow. I sort of forget how big time Laura Muir is because I see her training regularly. I've seen her doing hill reps at the end of my street and really wish she would put this up on Strava because she'd cream all of the fast club guys who are currently creaming me on my local hill.

Oh my God that would be so sweet to watch her in motion up a hill. She doesn't have the best form but it damn works for her. I'm surprised she doesn't do the head bob. It almost looks like she doesn't know what to do with her hands and head when she lights up the paces. I've only met her the one time and I talked to her for 20 minutes she is lovely.  I'm such a fan boy of her you have no idea.  I have her Glasgow Nike shirt.

I'd eat popcorn watching her do hill sprints. She is going to destroy all of Kelly Holmes records. Now with Dibaba and Semenya out of the picture it is very possible to see an 800m\1500m Gold double in Tokyo and Laura is just the Dame to do it. Did you catch that

Melissa Bishop is a dark threat too if she gets back from her babycation .

Back to hill sprint segments, sprints should be 2:30 -2:50/mi on a good day.  2:50 to 3:30/mi on a sloppy day. Its amazing the speed and power one develops when its part of their regimen.

Hudson also wrote a book called "the little black book of workouts" but I haven't been able to get hold of that one yet.  I also question the utility of a book that just lists workouts, since the magic of training is in the arranging and sequencing of workouts, not the workouts themselves.  IMHO.

It's actually very Good. I have a borrowed copy, it belongs to a deadzoner. I think its worth the $70 if you understand coaching\training. I like Hudson personally.  My issue with the Black Book is, he borrowed everyone's workouts made money gave no credit. I was very pissed off to see not even Steve Monaghetti got credit for his own Fartlek workout. In the whole book, he only gave credit to one person Salvatore Antibo's 10K Alternating Laps.

 

I've read the Hanson's marathon book (BTW, I've read a LOT of books) - I didn't think it all that useful for runners at our level, honestly, and it's not a plan I'd ever follow myself.  For example, you've got the much ballyhooed limitation of the long run to 16 miles, under the theory that you don't need to run longer than that when you've got cumulative fatigue from other training.  However, for runners at our level, we're already doing enough training during the week to accumulate a lot of fatigue, and then are used to doing runs longer than 16 miles on top of that.  For us, a Hansons type plan is a step back, and usually an unnecessary one.  I think Hansons works much better for runners whose marathon training focuses almost exclusively on the weekly long run, while shortchanging other workouts and weekly mileage - they benefit from the more balanced Hansons approach.

I've read Hansons and followed their program. I loved both, yet I also agree with everything written here. It's been a while since I read it, but I seem to recall them pointing some of this out. Such as things like "our plan is based primarily on Daniels" and that it was a simpler version of a lot of what's already out there. So yeah, if you're already doing the JD stuff or have followed his plans, this is likely a step back. I often find myself in the "I just need to train more and more consistently" as opposed to maxing out and at the point where I need to "train smarter" so a lot of their concepts in the book still work for me. I like the simplicity of their programs, and the weekly consistency. But I still tweak it, often making it even simpler. I go beyond 16, and keep it to two hard days, with 4-5 easy days, combining their LR and their MP days (not always quite hitting MP in the LR, but usually close (yeah, I know, that leads to death)).

DW - where do you recommend I start for Hudson? I also want to read the Hansons at some point. I've only read Pfitz and Daniels, would be good to start expanding on my knowledge.

Did someone say Hansons?!?!? It's similar to a JD2Q. Since you like the calendar approach it's Tuesday speed/strength (switches halfway through) and Thursday 10 seconds faster than GMP. Lots of charts to base your running paces on. Maximum 16 mile long run. The strength runs are 6x1 mile repeats up to 2x3 mile repeats at GMP with Thursdays being 6-10 (I think) miles at 10 seconds faster than GMP. So pretty much the last 9 weeks of training is a lot of running right near goal pace. Since I just read all about that "daniels paces are ridiculous" talk from the beginning of the year the logice Hanson's use for their 16 mile run is pretty much....the 20 mile marathon run is for elites. It's based off them finishing it around 2 hours. Their logic is the average person can't run a 20 miler in the same amount of time as the elites, and running that much does more harm than good because you're not fully refreshed heading into your next workout. Also, they go with the long run being something like 25-30% of your weekly mileage and discuss how MOST training plans say that then instantly violate it with suggesting a 20 mile run and a 50 mile week. They're also big on "cumulative fatigue" so you're never FULLY rested going into a long/strength/speed workout. I like it. Currently following it. Nice to know Tuesday and Thursday is set and Saturdays are my early morning 7:00am long runs in this "bullshit weather" known as snow.

The book is cheap. I like it. I've done well with it. I also enjoyed getting away from a 20 mile long run.

I go on a mini hiatus from the thread and all hell breaks loose. I don't even know what I just read pages of. I couldn't think of a good enough response to most of it  that didn't add to some of the nonsense that blurred the truths so will just move right along.

Jmac I randomly have 2 copies of the hudson "run faster" book DW and Mikkey mentioned, I'd be happy to send you along my spare.

Like many of you, I've read and own many of the running books. Total nerd about it. Re: Hanson - the biggest thing I like about Hanson is it gets people to stop thinking of a cycle in terms of how many 20 milers they run. I LOVE my long runs but know that I put too much emphasis on them for years without enough emphasis on the other miles in the week - that took me a long time to work on and missteps along the way but definitely have a more balanced look at the week than I did in early years. At this point, Hansons would be a step back for most here but I do think the concept is really good and more people would see better results if they focused on the week as a whole instead of just how long their long run is.

Last few weeks have been decent, just quiet and getting on with some changes at home etc etc. Lots of treadmill miles (GASP!), but some good quality workouts. Last week did a 2 mile T/800I/2 Mile T/800I/2 Mile T/800I/2 Mile T that just about made me throw up but glad I got it done. Last weekend did 19 with 4 x 2.5 at MP which was smoother than I expected even with some wind/icy patches.

Heading out for 20 today with total of 12 at MP (Broken 8 & 4) - on a late night flight out of Toronto tonight to Mexico so will be light training next week but will fit in running around the resort. First real true vacation that wasn't to visit people or for a race in.....way too long.

Anyone racing this weekend or everyone pretty low key until NYC Half and beyond?