2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread (Read 148 times)

weatherboy80


    Darkwave: Daniels and other coaches have suggested a rest of about 1 minute per 5 minutes worth of threshold work so at my pace that would equate to about a 2:15-2:30 rest period.  Having said that, I was trying to stay with some friends on the track (running in different lanes) so my recoveries were a bit longer than ideal and probably closer to a full 3 minutes this time around.

    5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

    darkwave


    Mother of Cats

      Darkwave: Daniels and other coaches have suggested a rest of about 1 minute per 5 minutes worth of threshold work so at my pace that would equate to about a 2:15-2:30 rest period.  Having said that, I was trying to stay with some friends on the track (running in different lanes) so my recoveries were a bit longer than ideal and probably closer to a full 3 minutes this time around.

       

      Ah - I took more recovery - between 4:00-4:30 (since my reps took 12:30-13:00, I guess Daniels would have prescribed 2:30-ish recovery).

       

      Understatement: the duration of the recovery makes a big difference.

      Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

       

      And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

      weatherboy80


        Yup and then there are different philosophies between whether it should be a standing rest or jog recovery for these.  I thought the idea for a standing rest was to get the body better at clearing lactate that builds up during the rest period?

        5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

        Andres1045


           

          Ah - I took more recovery - between 4:00-4:30 (since my reps took 12:30-13:00, I guess Daniels would have prescribed 2:30-ish recovery).

           

          Understatement: the duration of the recovery makes a big difference.

           

          I've done the 2x3 miles with 800m recovery at 10s faster than goal HMP (so ~T) a bunch in prep for half marathons (and variations of the intervals, with 6 miles total of work). I pulled that off the Hansons Half book (which I think in the book they say is mainly based off of Daniels stuff).  It has worked very well for me. The times I've tried to do pure Daniels type stuff with short recoveries, I've never gotten through it. I just put this in the "everyone responds a little differently" basket. The 800m rest gets the job done for me, and it allows me to get a better workout in overall since I can actually complete it.

           

          I'm totally the same way in that I'd quit running out of boredom two or three weeks weeks in to an all easy, yet high mileage plan. But I'd also break if you forced me to stick to a Daniels plan.

          Upcoming races:  I dunno.

          steve_


          powered by plants

             

            Interesting - I don't train by Daniels, but I took a look - my November 2018 half-marathon was 84:22, which put me right at VDot 55 at that point.  Meaning.a T pace of 6:20.  Two weeks before that half-marathon I ran:

             

            Workout 1: 14 miles, with 3x2 miles in 12:50 (6:28/6:22), 12:37 (6:18/6:19) and 12:36 (6:17-6:18). Half-mile recoveries.  I remember debating doing a 4th set, but opting to call at 3 just to be sure not to overdo stuff.

             

            Workout 2: 17 miles, with 2x5 miles in 33:32 (6:46/6:40/6:35/6:40/6:51 - 6:43 pace) and 33:52 (6:45/6:51/6:40/6:50/6:46 - 6:47 pace); one mile easy between two.

             

            Based on the above, 4x2 miles at 6:20 pace doesn't seem all that excessive.  OTOH, I ran a good marathon off of 3x2 - perhaps 4x2 would have been the straw that pushed me over the edge?

             

            What is the recovery for the 4x2 miles?

             

             

            Yeah, I think that's the big difference.  A half mile recovery was at least double the 2 minutes Daniels says.

            5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

            *downhill AF

            steve_


            powered by plants

              oops.  I didn't realize there was a new page.

               

              Why are there so few posts on each page????

              5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

              *downhill AF

              JMac11


                Taking 1:10 instead of 1:00 rest for each mile made a world of difference for me. I know 10 seconds seems like nothing, but when you're doing something like 2x3, 3:30 instead of 3:00 helps a lot.

                5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 36:21 (9/18)  |  HM: 1:20:39 (5/17)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                 

                Next Race: NYC Half (3/17/19)

                Goal Race: Boston (4/15/19)

                steve_


                powered by plants

                  Taking 1:10 instead of 1:00 rest for each mile made a world of difference for me. I know 10 seconds seems like nothing, but when you're doing something like 2x3, 3:30 instead of 3:00 helps a lot.

                  It's basically exponential.  2 minutes compared to 1 minute feels like 10x as refreshing.  Depending on the workout, though, you need to have longer, full recovery.  If you're doing T work, yeah, the rests should be short.  When doing speed stuff, the rest should be full.

                   

                  I still can't wrap my head around that 19 miler with 12 at MP and 1 at T (why??? just to f with you?) that Daniels has so fart out from a goal race.  Looking back over my last cycle, I never ran more than 5mi continuous at MP.

                   

                  Actually weather, could you tell me exactly which of the 2Q plans you're using from the Third ed. so I can properly critique you on a daily basis?  lol.  Just kidding.  Sort of.

                  5k: 17:52 (2014); 10k 36:59 (2014); 15k: 56:29 (2018); Half: 1:19:27* (2018); Full: 2:54:22 (2018)

                  *downhill AF

                  JTReeves


                    Swim: Nice week, you're getting back into it well after CIM. Though I avoid the mill during spring/summer pretty well it is useful in the winter months when it is dark for the weekday runs. Especially the quality; I have a really hard time doing anything fast in the dark with a headlamp.

                     

                    Steve: A 38 min 10k when sick is pretty strong. Based on your 15k you should be able to get sub 37 when you are healthy.

                     

                    Weather: Very strong week; those 2 Q sessions were huge. I really like doing 2 mile repeats, though like Darkwave and Andres I prefer a half mile recovery jog between.

                     

                    JMac: About time you showed up . Sounds like a smart and safe strategy for dealing with your injury.

                     

                    Finbad: Glad to hear the back injury is nothing major. Go easy on those planks; abdominals aren't that important for running 

                     

                    Andres: Nice building week, steady does it. You asked about Athens; I chose it mostly because of the elevation profile (see below); I wanted a flat course. I like training on hills and think they are beneficial in many ways, but I have no interest in racing on them. The other reason is that I can combine this with a visit to my mom in MI. So I'll be driving but the drive will be broken up a bit.

                     

                    Athens Marathon Elevation Chart

                    5K: 17:55 (2017)    HM: 1:23:57 (2016)    FM: 2:52:16 (2018)

                    2019 races: Athens Ohio Marathon (April 14); Erie Marathon (Sept. 8)

                    JMac11


                      What do most people think in terms of when to peak in mileage? Both Pfitz and Daniels have you peak anywhere from 6-8 weeks before the marathon. I always feel like I'm ready to go up even more mileage with only 4-5 weeks to go, so I never understood why you would peak so early, unless you're already running peak mileage leading up into your cycle.

                       

                      Thoughts?

                       

                      Edit: I'll also add I don't understand Daniels progression of workouts. His hardest workouts are often 6 weeks out, but then he will start lowering the intensity before when most people would consider tapering. I would think you would hit your peak workouts 3-5 weeks in advance, not 6-8 weeks.

                      5K: 17:51 (5/18)  |  10K: 36:21 (9/18)  |  HM: 1:20:39 (5/17)  |  FM: 2:46:17 (11/18) 

                       

                      Next Race: NYC Half (3/17/19)

                      Goal Race: Boston (4/15/19)

                      darkwave


                      Mother of Cats

                         

                        I still can't wrap my head around that 19 miler with 12 at MP and 1 at T (why??? just to f with you?) that Daniels has so fart out from a goal race.  Looking back over my last cycle, I never ran more than 5mi continuous at MP.

                         

                        I'm with you - that one looks brutal. My coach won't let us do more than 10 at MP in a workout.  That being said, I do prefer longer segments at MP as opposed to just 2-3 miles.   I think 4-5 miles is the minimum to really find that MP groove.  Additionally, it's very easy to overrun MP on a shorter segment, and get too cocky.

                        Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                         

                        And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                        weatherboy80


                          Yeah and I'm roughly following the 71-85 mile with some adjustment of the workouts by up to 1-2 weeks to fit my schedule.  I ran the one yesterday about a week or two early in hid 3rd edition schedule (if you look he has that one ~12-13 weeks out), but my thinking is I might try to jump into a half which requires a short taper at some point during this cycle.  Honestly his M/T/M workouts don't really get "that" much harder than the one I ran yesterday.  I agree that it could be a lot for someone jumping straight into that plan, but for me coming off a similar build for my recent HM it didn't seem all that daunting.  Looking at the plan the most I saw after that was about 15 miles worth of quality at about 6 weeks out from the race (8M+1T+4M+1T+1M) .  Last year I think I peaked volume wise about 5  weeks out then slowly cut back until 2 weeks before a more drastic taper.  Seemed to work for me, but my sample size is still too small to say otherwise.

                           

                          The other thing I plan to do is replace many of his prescibed interval workouts duing the plan with up & down bridge repeats to get in some climbing and decending on grades at faster than race pace.  These will likely turn out to be somewhere between 10K and 5K pace and about 1000-1200 meters long.  I did that prior to my HM buildup and kind of enjoy the pain on these quite a bit.  Plus they will help for all Boston downhill and certainly for those key uphills Smile

                          5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)

                          darkwave


                          Mother of Cats

                            What do most people think in terms of when to peak in mileage? Both Pfitz and Daniels have you peak anywhere from 6-8 weeks before the marathon. I always feel like I'm ready to go up even more mileage with only 4-5 weeks to go, so I never understood why you would peak so early, unless you're already running peak mileage leading up into your cycle.

                             

                            Thoughts?

                             

                            Edit: I'll also add I don't understand Daniels progression of workouts. His hardest workouts are often 6 weeks out, but then he will start lowering the intensity before when most people would consider tapering. I would think you would hit your peak workouts 3-5 weeks in advance, not 6-8 weeks.

                             

                            I don't have a specific peak week in my marathon training.  I usually structure my cycles with a half-marathon 3 weeks out from the goal marathon, so my peak mileage may end up being 4-5 weeks out, just because I'm already pulling back some as I get near the half.  I see the half-marathon (raced all out) as my peak workout intensity wise.

                            Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.

                             

                            And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.

                            Swim5599


                              I’ll say this about Daniels you do have to be careful.  My 2017 Boston cycle bordered on absolutely insane.  I hammered out his stuff weekly and pushed the mileage up to 130.  I was absolute toast by the race.  The WO s are much easier to deal with at 85-90 mpw s vs the 115 I avg d.  So I would just be cautious that’s all.  That being said you get super fit doing his stuff.

                               

                              Andres I never even reached 110 during my past cycle.  I hit 108 but the 5 quality based sessions took care of the good stuff

                              HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04

                              weatherboy80


                                Swim: That mileage with quality does indeed sound insane!  What I would probably recommend if running that kind of volume would be to scale the workouts from a lower mileage plan and perhaps couple that with more EZ running to get in the desired total volume?

                                5K: 16:44 (11/18)  |  10K: 36:09 (2/18)  |  HM: 1:17:15 (12/18)  |  FM: 2:48:58 (1/18)