Forums >Racing>2019 Sub 3 hour marathon thread
RE: Vaporflys - They feel very different than any other shoe due to the high stack. They are not stable so are not good for a course with a lot of turns or poor footing. My plan was to wear my old pair for all long runs this cycle but footing has been horrible so I haven't worn them at all for long runs. On a smooth, straight, flat road they are amazing though. Very lightweight and bouncy with a lot of cushioning. If you buy a pair you absolutely need to wear them for 15+ miles before racing a marathon in them (true of any shoe). I actually think they will last well. I have 300+ miles on my first pair and am expecting at least another few hundred miles on them.
My week - 107 miles including a 7 mile LAT (inside) at 5:27 pace and 23+ mile run this morning.
My marathon is just 5 weeks away. Only 2 more big training weeks and then the taper. This coming week is a slightly down week of 93-96 miles with a short VO2 max workout (5x800) and a race planned. I'm not sure how the race will go as I'm looking at doing a local 5k that I have not done before. The big question is the weather/course conditions. Lows all week are below zero again (Sunday night's low is -13!) and sidewalks are still ice covered and slippery so I'm not sure if the 5k course will have good enough footing/conditions for me to really hammer it. I'm hoping I can as I think I'm in sub 16 shape so I would love to break that barrier.
Damn Madison: you’re in killer shape! Curious what kind of pace you ran your 23 miler at? I ran 23 mostly EZ today myself as my longest time on feet run before Boston. It was a different kind of challenge for me!
1mile: 4:46 (12/20) | 5K: 15:57 (3/21) | 10K: 33:40 (4/20) | 15K 51:43 (4/21) | HM: 1:15:03 (12/20) | FM: 2:40:30 (1/20)
Thanks Weather, it's been a good cycle so far so I'm getting excited to race! I typically follow Pfitz's recommendation for long runs - start around 20% slower than MP and finish your last 5 miles at 10% slower than MP. So for me that's usually start in the 6:50s and ratchet it down to 6:20s for the last 5. Today's 23 was much slower (7:20 or so average pace) due to the inch of snow we got last night obscuring the sidewalks/roads/paths so I couldn't tell what was ice and what was not. I did push for about 6 miles near the end where the footing was okay most of the time.
RIP Milkman
Madison - beast. 100+ miles in 6 days??? Unbelievable.
Regarding long runs, I feel like it depends on what type of “plan” you’re doing. One thing I’ve learned with Daniels is to take his long runs at just easy pace, because he’s getting you so much work at training at tired legs on his other runs. If you try to do progression long runs of 21+, you will eventually pay the price.
DW - Do you think the rolling hills of Central Park have prepped me enough? I did my 12@MP today on the full loop, and based on what I’ve read, Boston is less hilly than either this loop, or even the NYCM. Hopefully running almost every run in CP will prep me enough, because I’ve done no dedicated hill work.
Me - my week is done, highest week this cycle (which shows how bad it has been). I’m probably the most inconsistent runner on this board, which is one of the benefits of being here: it shows me how much I have to go with my training to get to the next level. Anyway, happy with my week. I’m definitely seeing a big difference between my long tempo pace and my shorter tempo pace. I’ve become that pure endurance type. I’m only going to complete long runs and LT work from here to Boston, i.e. no more MP work as I have that locked down. I tested out the VF’s today during my MP run and I get the hype. Running on flat ground it wasn’t like I thought “wow these are trampolines!” But it’s the small things you notice: your legs aren’t as tired at the end of a run, you have more spring when running uphill, my legs are so much more fresh 6 hours later, etc. I’m excited to race in them in 2 weeks in my half. I was so worried about the heel-to-toe being 10mm when I’ve only run in 4-6mm over the last 5 years, but I didn’t even notice it.
Weekly SummaryMonday, Feb 25, 2019 thru Sunday, Mar 03, 2019
5K: 16:37 (11/20) | 10K: 34:49 (10/19) | HM: 1:14:57 (5/22) | FM: 2:36:31 (12/19)
Probably won’t post here every week to give an update, but I’ll try to post every two weeks or if something crazy happens. This was my second week doing a workout. This weeks workout went a lot better than last week. Did 10 miles at 6:19 on the roads which felt pretty easy (to my surprise) and got a fastish 2:30 LR in during a snow storm. It also will be my 2nd week over 60 and my 5th over 50. Not the best, but waaaaay better than the build leading to my debut. I don’t plan on going higher than ~65 per week until after Boston. I’m concerned that jacking mileage up and intensity at the same time could be trouble. Will be doing LT pace work as opposed to MP over the next weeks leading to Boston since I haven’t really hit that effort yet and have more to gain from it than hitting MP. I also won’t be doing much of a taper, maybe the first week of April I’ll cut back a little. I personally find tapering to be overrated.
Been super impressed with what I’ve seen from Madison. Doing that in 6 days is nuts. Have you considered just running 7 days a week? You might as well at that point.
3K: 8:29.12 (2017) 5K: 14:56.59 (2016) 8K: 25:27 (2016) 15K: 53:46 (2022) HM: 75:41 (2022) FM: 2:43:17 (2022)
Mother of Cats
So...there are three aspects of a rolling downhill course like Boston or CIM (CIM is really just a much more forgiving Boston) to be prepped for:
1) keeping a rhythm on rolling hills.
2) handling the quad tenderization that comes with a net downhill couse
3) being able to pace that kind of course well (they tend to suck you out because they feel very easy aerobically, even as they are beating up your legs).
Training in CP definitely gets you #1. #3 really just comes with experience on that type of race course, and knowing that a conservative start on that type of course feels different from a conservative start on a flat course.
#2 benefits from training. I usually do a few runs each cycle with 5-7 miles at marathon effort on a downhill - that's the best solution I've found for prepping. Of course, you need to have access to a long downhill section to do that.
Greg McMillan has something on his site about downhill strides as another way to prep quads - I'll try to dig that up when I get a chance.
Everyone's gotta running blog; I'm the only one with a POOL-RUNNING blog.
And...if you want a running Instagram where all the pictures are of cats, I've got you covered.
Really enjoying the Boston talk here, and thanks for the advice darkwave. As a "back-of-the-pack" runner around here, I'm excited to see you guys battle for the top spots, and I'll just keep my goal of going under 3 hrs...and beating Jimmie Johnson of course.
Really encouraging run today... 18 w/12@MP. Popped a caffeine pill (200mg) before starting. Good conditions, pretty flat course, not very windy. Mile markers every 1/4 mile, so really good feedback. First long effort in my Vapor Max and they felt great. Like floating on air. Shoe laces stayed secure. Finished the run feeling better than most of my 18 milers without speed work (which to be fair are hillier). Ran 6:43 pace... I only wear a stop watch, but pulse was 140 when I took it 30 seconds after finishing. 70 miles this week.
Interesting note on the Vaporfly. All of the previous times I put them on, my right foot felt very wrong, and my left fine. Today the right felt perfect, and the left felt a little funny, but not too bad. These shoes give instant feedback on how your feet are doing, and apparently my right foot (just when standing) is at a completely different angle than it was a month ago).
5k- 18:55 (2018) 10K- 39:04 (2017) Marathon- 3:00:10 (2018)
Mikkey - that sucks about the piriformis. Is it properly sore or constricting movement? I had issues on and off for ages but it was just mild tightness that needed stretching and hasn't surfaced this year.
Madison - excellent training and, as you say, exciting to see what race day will bring.
JMac - Feels very nice to say that you've got a good looking week there. We're not too far out to still make some sensible gains too.
MMC - Smart about not ramping the mileage on marathon number 2. Sounds like your getting some consistency going which will hopefully give you the stamina to use your speed.
Sling - 70 Miles, happy shoes, 12 at solidly sub 3 pace. It's all coming together.
Me - good week, bit weird due to circumstances. High 80's for miles
M- kettlebells and 5 easy commuting
T - 24 @ 7:15, steady and totally flat
W - 7.5 easy
T - 5.5 easy & 10 with 3x miles on/off 10k pace/10k +1 minute (couldn't properly hit 10k pace bit did the work)
F - 11 easy
S - 1.5 at 7 year olds pace with 4 10s hills sprints
S - 21 (3 easy, 7 moderate (6:30s), 4MP (got a bit excited 6:00ish), 1 moderate, 2 MP, 3 moderate)
feels like too much long stuff for one week but that's just what the time allowed. Really happy with how today went since I just had water at 10 miles and no gels.
Next week - long with some speed on Tuesday then easy into next weekend's half
Upcoming; 14th Sep Scottish veterans XC trials, 289th Sep Great Scottish Run 1/2, 12th October TAMA half marathon, 27th October Leeds Abbey dash 10k
JMAC sick WO yesterday. Week looks good
Fin anytime ya have 2 days with 20 plus miles you know your starting to roll a bit
sling always nice to hit a big WO for some confidence. Looks good
me 84 for the week with a character building PM sesh on Wed
Mon 8 with strides at sea level 7:45
tue 8 with strides at sea level 7:45
wed AM 9 with 35 min at mp power (6:11) sea level
PM after getting blasted in the face with OC spray for work
9 with 5x6:00 at threshold power (5:45) sea level. That
Hurt
thurs 8 7:45 sea level
fri AM 9 with 35 minutes at mp power (6:12) sea level
PM 10 with 4x8:00 back in flag (5:50)
sat 8 8:12
sun 18 as 8 easy then 3x16:00 at just over marathon power (6:08)
HM: 1/17 1:18:53. FM: 12/18 2:46:04
Jmac - 60+ miles is always solid. As for the VFs - I've also noticed that they really shine when running uphill - just an extra bit of bounce. I actually don't like them on steep downhills as I feel like I can't turn my legs over fast enough in them to really make use of the downhill. Of course, that's not a concern at Boston, as I don't think there are any really steep downhills on that course.
MMC - I totally agree with the call on not increasing intensity and mileage simultaneously. I have a friend who makes that mistake every cycle - he doesn't run enough between his cycles, and then starts each cycle off looking great, but gets injured somewhere in the middle. He's never asked for my advice, and so I've never had an opportunity to suggest that he could really benefit from a basebuilding season.
Sling -interesting on the experience with the shoes. I am confused - is the Vapor Max the same as the Vaporfly? Or different?
Finbad - that's a massive week. I particularly like Saturday's workout . Taper well!
Swim - interesting (and intense) double sessions on Wednesday and Saturday - are those from a training plan/coach? Or simply what you've found works for you in the past?
Also, what is "OC spray"? Did I miss something earlier in the week?My week: 60 miles, 8 "miles" of pool-running, and 2000 yards of swimming: M: Off - just a work tripT: 8 very easy (9:11) plus 4 hill sprints, then upper body strength and core, followed by another 2 very easy home (9:02).W: 11.5 miles, including a workout of 11x400m and 7x400m averaging 94 seconds with 100m floats averaging 29 seconds - 2:30 break (bio break) between sets. Followed with leg strengthwork and 1000 yards recovery swimming.Th: Yoga and 8 "miles" pool-running.F: 10 miles very easy (8:55) plus 6 hill sprints and drills, followed by upper body strength and core.Sa: 16.5 miles, including 3x3 miles at marathon effort (averaged 6:52, 6:54, and 6:46 for the three sets) and 1 mile faster (6:21). One mile easy between each. Followed with leg strengthwork and 1000 yards recovery swimmingSu: 10 easy (8:31) and yoga.
OK week, except for GI problems. Essentially I have a very sensitive GI system, which gets inflamed by a long list of stuff (gluten, lactose, nuts, legumes are big triggers). I went to a business thing on Monday, and apparently ate something I shouldn't have, and it's been a rough week since. I'm fine for easy running, but work outs have been problematic.
Wednesday's workout was supposed to be 16x400m at 10K effort with 30 second 100m float, but I had to take a break part way through, which fundamentally altered the workout. Had to take bio breaks after each 3 mile segment on Saturday also, which really annoyed me. Oh well - it just takes time for my system to settle after it gets triggered - hopefully I'll be OK by my next workout on Tuesday.
I had severe GI issues my junior which ruined my indoor season. I went to the doctor who said I likely have exercise induced IBS. He recommended I start taking Metamucil to increase the amount of soluble fiber. It made a major difference (after a few days). I hadn't been able to make it through long runs and it was also ruining my workouts, but after taking it I was back to normal.
One other thing that I have found made a huge difference was becoming a pescatarian/vegetarian (I only eat fish occasionally). I had issues with heartburn, stomach cramps, and a sensitive GI (I was off Metamucil) during runs which are now non-existent. I made this change in November 2018 and haven't looked back. I have found I feel healthier and actually think it has been beneficial to me in terms of running performance. My last actual race was 4:39 (19 seconds off of my PR) in the mile and that was with 0 work outs and very little training leading up to it. The two fastest runners I know personally are vegetarians (~14:10 for 5K and ~29:20 for 10k) as well as a fair number of professionals, so maybe there's something to it.
Madison: Huge week! I hope the conditions cooperate for your 5k; it would be awesome for you to run sub 16.
JMac: Great week and workout yesterday! I'd say you are doing just fine; your mileage has not been that inconsistent and you are getting in those huge workouts each week. Just keep at it and you will still be in the PR hunt at Boston.
MMC: Smart plan to not ramp up the miles too much and also to focus on LT work over MP. LT will give you the most bang for your buck. That and getting in a good long run and you will be setting up nicely for Boston.
Sling: 12 at 6:43 sounds to me like sub 3 is definitely in the cards, nice work!
Finbad: Strong week with those two long runs and some nice speedwork. You're approaching Weatherboy-type consistency.
Swim: You cram so much quality in your weeks it makes me sore and tired just reading them
DW: Another strong week. I feel for you on the GI issues; though I don;t often have problems with that, when it does happen on a run it is not pleasant. Hope you are back to normal by now. Great long run yesterday by the way. You all are making me feel guilty putting all this Q in your long runs, I need to start doing that.
Regarding Metamucil: I have been taking that once/day for many years. I'm a big believer in a very high fiber diet for health reasons. I'd highly recommend using it.
This was a big week by my standards, one of only a handful of 80+ mile weeks I have ever run. It was due to not having a long run last Sunday and therefore not taking Monday off like I usually do, so it was a 7-day running week. I was happy with a hard session of 4 x 10 min on the mill (it snowed the night before so the track was a no-go) at around 6:04 to 6:00 pace. Today's long run at honest pace felt pretty good. 6 weeks till race day.
2:52:16 (2018)
darkwave- whoops, meant Vaporfly. I'm actually already seeing a little signs of wear on both shoes after only 31 miles total. Will sadly put them aside for a while.
MMC- I am a vegetarian, and probably the slowest active commentator on this thread, but that's just random. I think you can eat meat and be a good runner if you do it correctly, but being a vegetarian makes it easier to get it right.
JT- 40 miles on the treadmill... you must have been thrilled to get outside.
Damn, seems like a lot of super huge weeks all around.
So there may being something to it then aye?
Also, what is "OC spray"? Did I miss something earlier in the week?
The last time you asked a question like this, it started a robust “discussion” on easy pace